interpretating the quran

  • Thread starter Thread starter Crystal
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies Replies 58
  • Views Views 9K
Iconodule said:
Of course we're under our bishops, thank God, but they are not infallible. Ecumenical councils convene rarely to address very specific problems; the interpretation of scripture is done by the Church as a whole, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Certainly the councils made some very crucial points but our faith is not limited to the decrees of councils. When we read the scriptures we consult the writings of great Fathers like St. John Chrysostom and also discuss with priests and knowledgeable lay teachers. We are also instructed by the Church's doctrinally and scripturally rich hymnography- whole theological textbooks could be written just using hymns.
Click to expand...

I did not say you believe bishops are infallible.
Bishops are your god's representatives.
And the ecumenical councils prove the point that christians keep changing their scriptures. The pure words of God through Jesus (pbuh) the messenger was never good enough for christians.
 
Ramadhan said:


I did not say you believe bishops are infallible.
Bishops are your god's representatives.
Click to expand...


Certainly they are God's representatives but they don't always represent him well.

And the ecumenical councils prove the point that christians keep changing their scriptures..
Click to expand...


No more than all your tafsirs, fiqh, hadith collections, madhhabs, prove that you keep changing the Quran.
 
Iconodule said:
Then it renders everyone's assertions moot.
Click to expand...

Not really, especially when in your own religion you're divided into dissenting cliques and huge factions with lack of organization, an adulterated book & no commonality of core beliefs.

best,
 
Iconodule said:
You mean like Sunnis and Shi'a?
Click to expand...

Not at all.. Sunnis (traditional) makeup 85-90% of all Muslims, Shia by definition mean faction are about 10%, hardly equal with the mess Christianity is in!

006.159​


6_159-1.gif

spacer-1.gif
Sahih International: Indeed, those who have divided their religion and become sects – you, [O Muhammad], are not [associated] with them in anything. Their affair is only
to Allah; then He will inform them about what they used to do.

still even they, the 10% faction use the exact same unadulterated Quran if they'd only read it & discern verses such as the above, and though they may otherwise have unusual political ideology and misinterpreted religious beliefs, they worship the one God and read the same book!

best,
​
​
​
​
 
ßlµêßêll said:



Nope.. suffis fall under shia, shia means faction, again pls. try to exercise those noodles..
Click to expand...

Interesting, because most of them consider themselves Sunni. So of those 85-90% of Muslims whom you said are "Sunnis", how many are REAL Sunnis, in your opinion? If every Sufi is really "Shi'a", that should boost the percentage of "Shi'a" in the world considerably, no?
 
Iconodule said:
Interesting, because most of them consider themselves Sunni. So of those 85-90% of Muslims whom you said are "Sunnis", how many are REAL Sunnis, in your opinion? If every Sufi is really "Shi'a", that should boost the percentage of "Shi'a" in the world considerably, no?
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter what they consider themselves, anyone who breaks away from tradition is a shia.. are you going to teach me Arabic & Islam? It wouldn't change their percentage any, still all the factions in Islam those that are western made like Ahmadis to those who consider themselves sufi, or ithni 3ashris all fall under shia still 10% & so will remain!

best,
 
Iconodule said:
But that can't be right, since by your assertion all Sufis are not actually Sunni, and a large percentage of self-styled Sunnis are Sufis and therefore shi'a according to you. Why, Pakistan alone is 50% Shi'a by this measure!
Click to expand...

I don't put stock in your brand of statistics or semantics for that matter. If you don't want to accept the facts as they're, then it is something you'll have to work on your own private time!


best,
 
ßlµêßêll said:


I don't put stock in your brand of statistics or semantics for that matter. If you don't want to accept the facts as they're, then it is something you'll have to work on your own private time!
Click to expand...

I'm just trying to understand. So let me see if I can summarize your argument:

1. Islam is not really divided into sects because the shi'a only constitute about 10%-20% and everyone else is Sunni.

2. "Sunnis" who practice Sufism are not actual Sunnis and therefore get relegated to the 10%-20% who are shi'a.

3. No matter how many sufis claiming to be Sunnis there are, they are all really shi'a and the shi'a percentage remains at 10%-20% because wikipedia says so, even though Wikipedia is using a different definition of "Sunni" and "Shi'a" from yours.
 
Iconodule said:
I'm just trying to understand. So let me see if I can summarize your argument:

1. Islam is not really divided into sects because the shi'a only constitute about 10%-20% and everyone else is Sunni.

2. "Sunnis" who practice Sufism are not actual Sunnis and therefore get relegated to the 10%-20% who are shi'a.

3. No matter how many sufis claiming to be Sunnis there are, they are all really shi'a and the shi'a percentage remains at 10%-20% because wikipedia says so, even though Wikipedia is using a different definition of "Sunni" and "Shi'a" from yours.
Click to expand...

The prophet didn't bring Sects & the Quran is unchanged, the Quran speaks repeatedly against sectarianism I am not going to delve on ahadith on the matter.. If people desire something outside of that, it is their prerogative (sunni/traditional) Muslims, don't consider them Muslims. They're outside the folds of Islam. What you consider them & what they consider themselves is inconsequential. The prophet didn't bring 'Suffism' nor 'Ithani 3ashri' nor ahmadi Islam. He brought us the Quran and Sunnah.. If you desire outside of that, then it is only your privilege!

BTW I don't care for wiki either I figured it caters to your western ready made fast meal sensibilities!

best,
 
Greetings of peace

Iconodule said:
No more than all your tafsirs, fiqh, hadith collections, madhhabs, prove that you keep changing the Quran
Click to expand...

Are you aware what these are? They are not 'changes' but rather part of the one faith itself, they are not additions nor alterations, they are all included in one, part of the faith, ways to understand the faith etc.

Tafsir - Interpetation

Fiqh - Law (Islamic jurisprudence)

Hadeeth Collections - All sayings of the prophets (peace and blessings be unto him), we don't change them, if you have come across a hadeeth it has a chain of narrators which will take you back to the actual person who said so and so, however, if the chains of narrations is weak the narration is therefore considered weak.

Madhabs - Schools of law (religious jurisprudence) if you study them you will realise that it has nothing to do with change. They are teachings based upon 4 schools, they consists of rulings based upon Qur'aan and the sunnah of the prophet (peace be unto him).

Heres a thread, hopefully it will shed some light in regards to what the four imam's have to say

-->> http://www.islamicboard.com/methodology/134305531-taqleed-madhabs.html <<--

It show's a lot of how much one does know, especially when one speak's without knowledge. Let's turn our thinking caps on and consider doing some research atleast before posting.

Iconodule said:
I'm just trying to understand.
Click to expand...

Regarding sunni and shi'aa's..

When one follow's something other than the actual teachings of the Qur'aan and sunnah they are considered someone as 'not following the Qur'aan or sunnah'..

Iconodule said:
1. Islam is not really divided into sects because the shi'a only constitute about 10%-20% and everyone else is Sunni.
Click to expand...

You are incorrect. Islam is not divided, the muslim's are the ones causing the division as stated by the prophet Muhammad (peace be unto him). There is only one Islam, no matter how one follows it or what one names oneself. Either they are following the Qur'aan and sunnah or either they are not 'completely' following Qur'aan and sunnah.

Iconodule said:
3. No matter how many sufis claiming to be Sunnis there are, they are all really shi'a and the shi'a percentage remains at 10%-20% because wikipedia says so, even though Wikipedia is using a different definition of "Sunni" and "Shi'a" from yours.
Click to expand...

Wilkipedia hasn't always been a reliable source to look up everything, has it? It requires one to also do their own studying from the authentic sources also.
 
ßlµêßêll said:


The prophet didn't bring Sects & the Quran is unchanged, the Quran speaks repeatedly against sectarianism I am not going to delve on ahadith on the matter.. If people desire something outside of that, it is their prerogative (sunni/traditional) Muslims, don't consider them Muslims.
Click to expand...

Likewise, they don't consider you to be the TRUE Muslims. So I guess, to borrow a phrase, that renders your previous assertion moot.

A separate, but related question: Do you think the Sunnis were right to bomb the Sufi shrine?
 
Jεώel oғ ωïѕdoм;1475223 said:
Greetings of peace



Are you aware what these are? They are not 'changes' but rather part of the one faith itself, they are not additions nor alterations, they are all included in one, part of the faith, ways to understand the faith etc.
Click to expand...


And the same is true of our councils, creeds, writings of the Fathers, etc. They are all part of the one faith which has not changed since the Church was founded by our Lord Jesus Christ.

When one follow's something other than the actual teachings of the Qur'aan and sunnah they are considered someone as 'not following the Qur'aan or sunnah'..
Click to expand...

Likewise when someone does not really follow the Holy Scriptures and their correct interpretation in Holy Tradition, he is considered to be heterodox.

You are incorrect. Islam is not divided, the muslim's are the ones causing the division as stated by the prophet Muhammad (peace be unto him). There is only one Islam, no matter how one follows it or what one names oneself. Either they are following the Qur'aan and sunnah or either they are not 'completely' following Qur'aan and sunnah.
Click to expand...

Likewise there is only one Orthodox Christian Faith.




Wilkipedia hasn't always been a reliable source to look up everything, has it? It requires one to also do their own studying from the authentic sources also.
Click to expand...

Of course. We should never simply rely on Wikipedia to prove something.
 

Similar Threads

Back
Top