Why British Muslim women struggle to find a marriage partner

[CosmicPathos]

Yes you have the right, but you should consider what your daughter wants more than what you want. And yes, you want your kids to be happy which is exactly why you need to think about what they want. If you say to them 'sorry you cant marry a non-Paki' thats not necessarily looking out for their happiness because you dont know the guys yet.

And what would be wrong with being a Scottish Muslim? Your lineage will change no matter what anyway. Pakistan has not always been Pakistan, for instance.

So youre Canadian, your kids will be Canadian then if you dont go somewhere else. They wont be fully Pakistani. im a British Muslim, I see myself as that but my ethnic origin is Pakistani. Your daughter will still see her ethnic origin as Pakistani so you shouldnt worry about that.

Yes, you are right, Pakistan has not always been Pakistan.

But please note that I did not say "Pakistani." I said Rajput. It is a genetic group of warriors from Kshatrya caste of warriors going back thousands of years. If my daughter's husband is Rajput and his nationality happens to be Indian or even Canadian, I have no problems with it as long as first he is a practicing Muslim, and then if he is rajput.

As for daughter, maybe its a phase and later on she will want something else? Our likes and dislikes continue to change. I know that once I wanted to marry this Spanish girl, and my parents denied, but today I think it was the best decision that my parents took.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

Bro, jazakAllah.
Yes, there are two umm kalthoom. Umm Kalthoom Bint Abu Bakr, and Umm Kalthoom Bint Ali. Umar (ra) married Ali's (ra) daughter after Abu Bakr's (ra) daughter rejected the offer.

Brother do you have any referances and sources for this claim because as far as i can see it is a shia claim.

 

[Sunshine824]

As Salaamu Alaikum;

I wanted to share some first hand experience as a biracial Muslimah.

My parents (black father, white mother) married in 1970 and never divorced.
I never felt "confused" about my race. I felt I had the best of both worlds - while most people only got to be one thing or the other, I got to be both.
I look it at how if you offer a child the choice of vanilla ice cream, chocolate ice cream, or both - what would they want? Most would want both! I got both, while others only got one. I almost felt bad for people who were only 1 race because it didn't seem like as much fun. lol

As I entered high school and adulthood, I still did not feel confused about myself. But some others did seem to be confused. Being biracial seems to upset the people who aren't more than it upsets the ones who actually are. Probably because they don't know what box to put you in or which prejudice they can use against you.....

My appearance probably doesn't help either because I just have an "exotic" appearance and I wear hijab. I've been mistaken for Latina, Arab, Moroccan, Malaysian, etc. People will speak to me in their language assuming I speak it too. When I tell them I don't understand they just speak more slowly. :giggling:

Anyway, as for marriage, we are advised by Prophet Muhammad :saws1: that there are 4 criteria for marriage: wealth, lineage, beauty, and deen. But that we should choose the one for their piety if we want to be successful.

On the one hand, I don't see a problem with having a preference and wanting what's best for your children. Especially your daughter as there is a level of protection and responsibility there that isn't there for sons. I have a daughter and I would worry about marrying her to someone that is from a different culture because I might not know how they would treat her or how their family would treat her. If this brother was very pious and had very good character then I wouldn't worry as much no matter what race or culture he is from insha Allah.

On the other hand, the parents' preference should not hinder the child in getting married if they found someone who fit the most important criteria: pious & good character- just because they are not of the same race or culture. I think the line is when we as parents forbid or insist on something rather than prefer it. I would forbid my daughter to marry someone who is not Muslim, who drinks or smokes, who has girlfriends, etc. However, I would not forbid her from marrying someone of a different culture insha Allah. I'm familiar with some cultures other than my own and might prefer her to marry someone from certain cultures that I'm familiar with but wouldn't insist on it.

 

[CosmicPathos]

Brother do you have any referances and sources for this claim because as far as i can see it is a shia claim.

Bro I heard it in this lecture. If you go to 36:00 time mark, you'll see the names of wives of Umar (ra).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0BadunCRls

 

[CosmicPathos]

Anyway, as for marriage, we are advised by Prophet Muhammad that there are 4 criteria for marriage: wealth, lineage, beauty, and deen. But that we should choose the one for their piety if we want to be successful.

That is quite right, but you are ignoring other ahadeeth of Prophet pbuh. We have to take all ahadith in context. In other hadeeth Prophet pbuh has suggested to marry young virgin women, so that takes old widowed women out of priority. Religion is important criteria but the other hadith tells you that age and virginity are also a criteria. In the same way lineage is also a criteria, and it comes after religion.

I am very glad to hear that you had a pleasant biracial experience and no identity crises, but I think as a male I would have identity crises if I could not know what my ancestry is and why am I "mixed" and what clan I am from etc.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

Bro I heard it in this lecture. If you go to 36:00 time mark, you'll see the names of wives of Umar (ra).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0BadunCRls

Going by what the Sheikh mentions regarding Umar (Ra) proposal of Abu Bakrs daughter Umm Kulthum then clearly the rejection was due to Umm Kulthum foreseeing incompatibility. This is an acceptable reason for a person to reject a proposal because a marriage will seldom work out if there is not compatibility there. Umar (Ra) was a strong, overbearing personality with a lifestyle to match. Clearly not for everyone. The Sahaba were also normal humans. They also had high divorce rates. But the way they saw it was if it didnt work then they just parted, there wasnt such a big upset like there is in many of todays divorces.

So compatibility is very important when it comes to deciding whether or not to marry someone. That is why Islam allows a couple to get to know one another for a bit in the presence of the girls mahram or at least him being nearby.

 

[CosmicPathos]

Going by what the Sheikh mentions regarding Umar (Ra) proposal of Abu Bakrs daughter Umm Kulthum then clearly the rejection was due to Umm Kulthum foreseeing incompatibility. This is an acceptable reason for a person to reject a proposal because a marriage will seldom work out if there is not compatibility there. Umar (Ra) was a strong, overbearing personality with a lifestyle to match. Clearly not for everyone. The Sahaba were also normal humans. They also had high divorce rates. But the way they saw it was if it didnt work then they just parted, there wasnt such a big upset like there is in many of todays divorces.

So compatibility is very important when it comes to deciding whether or not to marry someone. That is why Islam allows a couple to get to know one another for a bit in the presence of the girls mahram or at least him being nearby.

jazakAllah for admitting that compatibility is important.

Now, who is supposed to be more compatible? Two people who belong to same clan, speak same language, same dialect, same culture, same jokes, same worldviews, or two people from two different corners of world, with two different languages, different worldviews ? The people in "love" might not see the problems that lie in future, but parents as 3rd rational party with more mature mindset can forsee it.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

jazakAllah for admitting that compatibility is important.

Now, who is supposed to be more compatible? Two people who belong to same clan, speak same language, same dialect, same culture, same jokes, same worldviews, or two people from two different corners of world, with two different languages, different worldviews ? The people in "love" might not see the problems that lie in future, but parents as 3rd rational party with more mature mindset can forsee it.

But who said those two people would be from different corners of the world? They would both be born and bred in the same country, speak the same language, dialect etc. Compatibility does not mean that both have to be from the same caste, region, nationality or race. Compatibility comes from how well both get on with each other and whether they have similar goals, aspirations, perspectives on life and how they want to live life and raise children etc.

Compatibility is about how the two couple get on not how the parents percieve the two to get on. If the parents are happy with the persons character and piety and if the son or daughter feel that the person is compatible for them then caste, region or race does not matter at all.

Then why did Umm Kulthum (Ra) reject Umar (Ra)? They were from the same region, spoke the same language etc etc. But is is simply due to incompatibility of personalities and lifestyle. If a person is happy with the suitors personality, character and lifestyle and feels that they are compatible then caste, region, nationality or race plays no part in it at all.

 

[Sunshine824]

That is quite right, but you are ignoring other ahadeeth of Prophet pbuh. We have to take all ahadith in context. In other hadeeth Prophet pbuh has suggested to marry young virgin women, so that takes old widowed women out of priority. Religion is important criteria but the other hadith tells you that age and virginity are also a criteria. In the same way lineage is also a criteria, and it comes after religion.

I am very glad to hear that you had a pleasant biracial experience and no identity crises, but I think as a male I would have identity crises if I could not know what my ancestry is and why am I "mixed" and what clan I am from etc.

As Salaamu Alaikum;

Brother I don't think you understood my post as I clearly quoted that there were other criteria to marrying other than just religion.

Again, my argument is that the secondary criteria should not overrule the most important criteria of piety and good character.

Finally, I have also known at least 10 other people who were biracial/multiracial with half of them being male. None of them had an identity crisis or didn't know where they came from. Everyone knew who their parents were and what their heredity was. It's not like people who are biracial don't know their parents or their heritage. They just have a more diverse heritage. The same way if you know that your mother came from 1 village and your father came from a different village. You aren't confused about who you are or where you came from. Likewise, those who have parents with different heritage are not confused either.

 

[CosmicPathos]

But who said those two people would be from different corners of the world? They would both be born and bred in the same country, speak the same language, dialect etc. Compatibility does not mean that both have to be from the same caste, region, nationality or race. Compatibility comes from how well both get on with each other and whether they have similar goals, aspirations, perspectives on life and how they want to live life and raise children etc.

I still find incompatibility between myself and the Muslimahs who were born in Canada, even though I am quite "Westernized" too, and have been here for more than 10 years and childhood schooling was also in English langauge. I guess to each his own.

 

[CosmicPathos]

As Salaamu Alaikum;

Brother I don't think you understood my post as I clearly quoted that there were other criteria to marrying other than just religion.

Again, my argument is that the secondary criteria should not overrule the most important criteria of piety and good character.

Finally, I have also known at least 10 other people who were biracial/multiracial with half of them being male. None of them had an identity crisis or didn't know where they came from. Everyone knew who their parents were and what their heredity was. It's not like people who are biracial don't know their parents or their heritage. They just have a more diverse heritage. The same way if you know that your mother came from 1 village and your father came from a different village. You aren't confused about who you are or where you came from. Likewise, those who have parents with different heritage are not confused either.

Thank you for clarifying.

For the bold part, I am not sure anymore in 21st century. From my observation of humans over a long period of time, including myself, every thing seems to be driven by evolutionary desires and goals. You would think that wives do not like the attention other females give to her husband, but evolutionary biology says that a wife likes it when her husband gets attention from other women because it gives her the confidence that her husband, despite so many choices, chose this specific woman as his wife. I was very disheartened to learn this. These emotions are common across females of all races, whether they admit or not. I used to believe that pious Muslimahs wont have these sort of things, but I was proven wrong again and again. Human behavior sometimes is very much like animals. And it saddens me that only very few humans surpass the animalistic nature that we all have.

 

[Sunshine824]

Thank you for clarifying.

For the bold part, I am not sure anymore in 21st century. From my observation of humans over a long period of time, including myself, every thing seems to be driven by evolutionary desires and goals. You would think that wives do not like the attention other females give to her husband, but evolutionary biology says that a wife likes it when her husband gets attention from other women because it gives her the confidence that her husband, despite so many choices, chose this specific woman as his wife. I was very disheartened to learn this. These emotions are common across females of all races, whether they admit or not. I used to believe that pious Muslimahs wont have these sort of things, but I was proven wrong again and again. Human behavior sometimes is very much like animals. And it saddens me that only very few humans surpass the animalistic nature that we all have.

As Salaamu Alaikum;

The characteristics that you describe are all the more reason to seek out the one with the best character and who is the most pious. If many Muslims and Muslimahs have some lower inclinations then you need these criteria first to be sure that they will behave in a way that is better insha Allah. When their Iman is strong then their fear and love for Allah SWT will correct their behaviour. When their Iman is lower(it happens) then their good character will still keep their behaviour correct insha Allah.

 

[CosmicPathos]

As Salaamu Alaikum;

The characteristics that you describe are all the more reason to seek out the one with the best character and who is the most pious. If many Muslims and Muslimahs have some lower inclinations then you need these criteria first to be sure that they will behave in a way that is better insha Allah. When their Iman is strong then their fear and love for Allah SWT will correct their behaviour. When their Iman is lower(it happens) then their good character will still keep their behaviour correct insha Allah.

Is that even possible?

Thanks for your suggestions though.

 

[~Zaria~]

^ That is indeed possible.

It is only imaan, and a higher sense of accountability that curtails our nafs and 'animalistic' desires.

Personally, where it not for the love of Allah (subhanawata'ala) and His nabi (sallalahu alaihi wasalam), as well as fear for the consequences - I would be living my life out in a very different manner.

Most women enjoy the attention and admiration of men as they walk past.......but Islam enjoins hijab and modesty.
Many people enjoy going out to parties and clubs, etc.......but Islam forbids this sort of enviroment.
Many men and women, if given the opportunity would not mind having multiple partners without the strings of marriage attached.......but Islam has shown us a better way.

If NOT for love, as well as fear of Allah (subhanawata ala).....what else would make us take the 'higher' road in life?
This is the beauty of this deen.
It forces us to suppress our 'lower beings' - in the desire for a higher purpose: the obedience to our Creator, not wanting to displease our Rabb......and ultimately the pleasure of His meeting and the rewards of paradise.

And the higher ones imaan and taqwa......no doubt, the easier it becomes to fulfill the commands of Allah.
No doubt.

And hence, the importance of seeking this very, very important attribute in ones potential spouse......over and above everything else.


Salaam

 

[Maryan0]

I don't understand why an issue specific to a certain culture is being projected on all Muslims.
Salam

 

[joyous fairy]

Yes, you are right, Pakistan has not always been Pakistan.

But please note that I did not say "Pakistani." I said Rajput. It is a genetic group of warriors from Kshatrya caste of warriors going back thousands of years. If my daughter's husband is Rajput and his nationality happens to be Indian or even Canadian, I have no problems with it as long as first he is a practicing Muslim, and then if he is rajput.

As for daughter, maybe its a phase and later on she will want something else? Our likes and dislikes continue to change. I know that once I wanted to marry this Spanish girl, and my parents denied, but today I think it was the best decision that my parents took.

Ok.

Maybe when you have a daughter you might change your mind too

 

[CosmicPathos]

Ok.

Maybe when you have a daughter you might change your mind too

No, my current thinking is not based on what I like and dislike. It is based on rationality and logic. There is huge difference in doing things because I like doing them, and doing things because it is the right thing to do them.

 

[~Zaria~]

No, my current thinking is not based on what I like and dislike. It is based on rationality and logic. There is huge difference in doing things because I like doing them, and doing things because it is the right thing to do them.

Hmm, and I here I thought, deciding the 'right thing to do' - was based on the commands of Allah (subhanawata ála) and our prophet (sallalahu alaihi wasalam).....

Unfortunately, it appears that not all of us are not working from this same basis.

Sad.

 

[~Raindrop~]

This thread has gone wildly off-topic.

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. If others don't agree with you, it really isn't the end of the world. To each his (or her) own. Forcing your opinion on others isn't the solution.

Agree to disagree and move on, please.