To be a good Muslim do I have to hate Homosexuals ?

[GuestFellow]

Forth, all the definitions of homosexuality that I hold are what the Qur'an and Sunnah say and that is that it is Islamically considered to be a homosexual when one acts upon the thoughts and feelings for the same gender. Anything more than that is obviously included.

Salaam,

But homosexuality means sexual attraction. It does not indicate whether a homosexual has acted upon those urges. I think I have a more strict interpretation of the term homosexuality.

 

[CosmicPathos]

Salaam,

But homosexuality means sexual attraction. It does not indicate whether a homosexual has acted upon those urges. I think I have a more strict interpretation of the term homosexuality.

do you have homosexual feelings? seems from the way you are defending it.

is it normal to having feelings for having sex with dead bodies in graves? necrophilia? would you think that is a deviation or just an "innocent" desire?

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Salaam,

But homosexuality means sexual attraction. It does not indicate whether a homosexual has acted upon those urges. I think I have a more strict interpretation of the term homosexuality.

Bro, I don't understand the reason why you are taking it from so many different angles and missing the point that answers everything. What I am trying to say here is acting upon any of one's thoughts and feelings towards the same gender. By the thoughts and feelings I mean anything that has to do with attraction whether it's physical or emotional. Sexual relationships are obviously the pinnacle of it all but if that doesn't happen but other forms of perverted attraction are present then yes it counts Islamically as homosexuality.

This definition is from the Islamic perspective and not the western, logical, philosophical perspective or any other perspective for that matter. This is the only perspective that counts and it encompasses everything I've mentioned.

 

[جوري]

btw here's the group started by the guy who chose to not be a homosexual:
[h=4]Description[/h]

As-salaamu 'alaykum!

- Muslim and worried that you might be "gay"?
- Wondering how to deal with your same-gender attractions?
- Looking for advice from Muslims in a similar situation, as well as counsellors?

This group was established by the StraightWay Foundation with the aim of providing a safe environment of interaction and mutual support for same-gender attracted Muslims.

The main areas of focus will be understanding the issues from an Islamic perspective and finding ways to deal with homosexual temptations in accordance with the laws of Allah (SWT).

Some members have successfully overcome their desires - others are still struggling - yet others are here to provide Islamic and psychological guidance.

If you have privacy concerns, please make yourself an anonymous e-mail address before signing up.


If you simply want some information related to the subject, please see the Eye on Gay Muslims blog: http://gaymuslims.wordpress.com


I am sure his story is on there too..

 

[GuestFellow]

do you have homosexual feelings?

Salaam,

Why? Are you interested? :

seems from the way you are defending it. is it normal to having feelings for having sex with dead bodies in graves? necrophilia? would you think that is a deviation or just an "innocent" desire?

No, I do not have homosexual feelings, nor am I attracted to dead bodies. If I did, I would have said so. I have a relative who is homosexual and he is so misunderstood. He's been bullied from quite a young age and now lives a quiet life. His parents respect him, but most of his relatives and brothers hate him. Even though he has never practiced homosexuality, many Muslims still judge him and treat him as though he is mentally disturbed. How can I not have sympathy for him.

I think as long as people do not act upon their sexual urges and keep it under control, then it is fine. We all experience anger at some point. As long as we control it and don't act upon these urges, then it is fine.

Bro, I don't understand the reason why you are taking it from so many different angles and missing the point that answers everything. What I am trying to say here is acting upon any of one's thoughts and feelings towards the same gender. By the thoughts and feelings I mean anything that has to do with attraction whether it's physical or emotional. Sexual relationships are obviously the pinnacle of it all but if that doesn't happen but other forms of perverted attraction are present then yes it counts Islamically as homosexuality.

This definition is from the Islamic perspective and not the western, logical, philosophical perspective or any other perspective for that matter. This is the only perspective that counts and it encompasses everything I've mentioned.

Salaam,

So to make it clear, do you believe it is a sin to experience sexual attraction outside of marriage? Or do you believe it is a sin when you act upon them outside of marriage? That is all I want to know.

 

[crimsontide06]

It's a mental disease, just like pedophilia. The sexual desire for the same gender is the same exact sexual desire that freaks have who want children...It's the same thing as those who want to be sexual with animals, random objects...it's a disease.


BI-sexual is NOT a disease, that's sexual confusion. SOME people go to the same gender because society has made it seem "cool" to be with the same gender.

 

[GuestFellow]

It's a mental disease, just like pedophilia. The sexual desire for the same gender is the same exact sexual desire that freaks have who want children...It's the same thing as those who want to be sexual with animals, random objects...it's a disease.


BI-sexual is NOT a disease, that's sexual confusion. SOME people go to the same gender because society has made it seem "cool" to be with the same gender.

Salaam,

Homosexuals are not necessarily attracted to children. If so, where's your evidence?

If it is a disease, what's the cure?

 

[crimsontide06]

Salaam,

Homosexuals are not necessarily attracted to children. If so, where's your evidence?

If it is a disease, what's the cure?

I said it's the same idea....not saying they like children too. I am saying that the desire that homosexuals have is the same type of desire that pedo's have BUT homosexuals desires are accepted in western society.

 

[جوري]

If it is a disease, what's the cure?

With every disease there's indeed a cure..
Ibn Sina described love once as a mental illness, I am inclined to the same conclusion but we're not talking feelings here, rather the act.. .. The cure in this case is simply abstinence .. you can do that as a Hetero or a homo.. for the initial sin in this case is adultery and beyond adultery deviance.. We don't jump people simply because of an intense attraction to them... I certainly think prayers and fast are ropes from Allah in times of difficulty and in all times so a person should utilize them..
I speak from experience not of homosexuality but after an incident on the highway I became a slave to panic attacks and completely agoraphobic and no one helped me out of it not even my intellectualizing it.. it was Allah swt that took me out of it.. one really needs to examine their faith and reliance on Allah swt and do their part as in have the will to..

 

[ardianto]

Bro, being homosexual is a choice. No one is born homosexual nor does a human being by their natural disposition desires the same gender – ever. Allah created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. This is proven by the ayah that I quoted of Lut in my last post where the Prophet of God clearly says that it was a practise never done before; in other words the people chose this way.

Now as for one who had bad experiences, you've pretty much answered this question yourself i.e. the bad experiences is what caused them to be who they are from how Allah naturally created them, but to chose from one's heart to be a homosexual was still a choice and to continue to be this way was still a decision they made. The heart is free to choose what it wants and no one can compel it in any way or form to love or desire something. So with this understanding it can be confidently said that there is no difference between the one who is homosexual and the one who acts upon their desires (except that the latter is worse!); just as there is no difference between a man and woman dating and those who commit zina in their relationship because it is too close to the act of zina itself. Both are doing wrong but the one's who are satisfying their desires are in a worse state than just dating. No Muslim in his right mind will make dating or anything of the sort as anything less than strictly forbidden because one chooses celibacy! What would then be the case of a repugnant and abhorrent act of homosexuality?

And finally, Ibn Taymiyah's quote clearly mentions those who are passive and active are to be punished.

I talked about children who got bad experiences from people around them, before they have sexual desire. Later when they reach puberty age they realize they have no interest to opposite gender and have interest only to same gender. People like this cannot be forced to have interest to opposite gender, but they can choose to follow their wrong desire, or they to control it to prevent them fall into sin.

But I understand why you said being homosexual is a choice. There are people who already have normal sexual desire, but they got experience that made them chose to eliminate their normal sexual desire and chose to be homosexual. However, you cannot generalize all homosexual can choose to be homosexual.

And from what I have read, Shaykh Ibn Taymiyah Rahimahullah talked about practicing homosexual, not about being homosexual which they did not want to be a person like this.

 

[CosmicPathos]

Even though he has never practiced homosexuality, many Muslims still judge him and treat him as though he is mentally disturbed

he indeed is mentally disturbed for having such desires. maybe a development disorder, but something indeed is wrong.

And i'd hate my brother too if he had such desires. I dont blame your relative's brothers. No one wants a weird sibling.

 

[CosmicPathos]

I talked about children who got bad experiences from people around them, before they have sexual desire. Later when they reach puberty age they realize they have no interest to opposite gender and have interest only to same gender. People like this cannot be forced to have interest to opposite gender, but they can choose to follow their wrong desire, or they to control it to prevent them fall into sin.

yea so it means it is a development disorder, not something they were born with. society made them that way, not God.

 

[CosmicPathos]

Homosexuals are not necessarily attracted to children. If so, where's your evidence?

what if someone is attracted to children? is that normal as long as they dont act on it?

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

Abd-al lafit
Where do you get your Islamic knowledge from? You’ve also posted to a married woman in advice section that married people who watch porn are to be stoned. YET anyone with BASIC Islamic knowledge it is the act of penetration, witnessed by four people or confessed by the individual that ensure they get death by stoning. She would have been punished in Islamic state if she was caught BUT by death? no..

So I don’t know what to make of your statement that a homosexual will be sentenced to death because of his attraction towards same sex NOT because he confessed or was witnessed having sex with same sex or promoted homosexuality.

You are equating dating with attraction?

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

what if someone is attracted to children? is that normal as long as they dont act on it?

no it is normal, but they haven't committed a crime if they didn't act upon it.

 

[Abu.Yusuf]

We don't really know who is sinning do we? It is indeed for Allah swt to judge.. I have posted here the story of a Muslim man who struggled with homosexual feelings, used to have SSE and feel like crap and his struggles and prayers to get over them.. he eventually got married (to a woman) had children and started a website to help other people who love Allah more than deviant sex do the same..

This does not really make sense..

Sin happens on three fronts:
-Heart
-Tongue
-Action

As for the sin in the heart, yes we do not know who is really sinning and the only judge is Allaah for that. Allaah [swt] did not give us permission to judge peoples hearts.
However, for the sins on the tongue and action Allaah [swt] has given us permission to judge. We have to judge people, otherwise how would i advise someone to stop doing Haraam if i am not allowed to think that he is sinning in the first place? How can someone reject a marriage proposal from an [for example] alcoholic for their daughter if he is not allowed to judge him. How can some choose 'good' company if he is not allowed to judge someone to be bad....and so on.

And coming back to the point, 'hate the sin, not the sinner' where is this founding in the Quraan or Sunnah?..remember it is a big sin to attribute something to the Deen without evidence.

side point: if we accept that, can we say 'love the good deed, not the good dooer' - if not, why?

 

[Ramadan90]

This does not really make sense..

Sin happens on three fronts:
-Heart
-Tongue
-Action

As for the sin in the heart, yes we do not know who is really sinning and the only judge is Allaah for that. Allaah [swt] did not give us permission to judge peoples hearts.
However, for the sins on the tongue and action Allaah [swt] has given us permission to judge. We have to judge people, otherwise how would i advise someone to stop doing Haraam if i am not allowed to think that he is sinning in the first place? How can someone reject a marriage proposal from an [for example] alcoholic for their daughter if he is not allowed to judge him. How can some choose 'good' company if he is not allowed to judge someone to be bad....and so on.

And coming back to the point, 'hate the sin, not the sinner' where is this founding in the Quraan or Sunnah?..remember it is a big sin to attribute something to the Deen without evidence.

side point: if we accept that, can we say 'love the good deed, not the good dooer' - if not, why?

What if the person can not control what he feels but he had decided to stay away from that sin for Allah? How can that be a sin?

On topic: Very interesting discussion.

 

[جوري]

This does not really make sense..

Sin happens on three fronts:
-Heart
-Tongue
-Action

As for the sin in the heart, yes we do not know who is really sinning and the only judge is Allaah for that. Allaah [swt] did not give us permission to judge peoples hearts.
However, for the sins on the tongue and action Allaah [swt] has given us permission to judge. We have to judge people, otherwise how would i advise someone to stop doing Haraam if i am not allowed to think that he is sinning in the first place? How can someone reject a marriage proposal from an [for example] alcoholic for their daughter if he is not allowed to judge him. How can some choose 'good' company if he is not allowed to judge someone to be bad....and so on.

And coming back to the point, 'hate the sin, not the sinner' where is this founding in the Quraan or Sunnah?..remember it is a big sin to attribute something to the Deen without evidence.

side point: if we accept that, can we say 'love the good deed, not the good dooer' - if not, why?

When you pass a judgement with such absolution you take away someone's hope and possibility of ever repenting.
There are people who do the deeds of the people of paradise and everyone thinks them in paradise but end up in hell and vice versa..
Surely you remember the three stories, one man who went to paradise after just one salat, one who converted and went to battle and went to paradise without any salaat.. and the one who was so heroic and everyone all the sahabis thought he was going to paradise but during battle put his sword in such a way so that he'd fall on it and commit suicide...
I believe we have permission to pass naseeha to someone as ad'deen naseeha, but we don't know who is repenting for their actions and who isn't but we're not the judge and executioner of anyone. Loads of examples of people who are outwardly pious and are anything but and vice versa..
The term you use is nonsensical of sorts..

now for your question at the end, imagine if Allah swt takes your bad deed and multiplies it by 10 or 70 as is the case of a good deed? Allah swt is merciful, he never closes the gates of mercy.. a man from banu Israel killed a 99 soul and the sage told him Allah will never accept your repentance, he killed him too and then went to make repentance died in the road to repentance but had a sincere heart and his repentance was accepted from him..
You're welcome to go through life judging other people.. That's not a trait I wish to adorn myself with and I do find homosexuality an abomination if you'll refer to all my posts on the matter..

sry for the typos I am in a hurry..

 

[جوري]

btw just as a quick addendum to above since I forgot in the discourse.. I'd like you to evince from Quran and Sunnah our ability to 'Judge' don't bring me ahadith about enjoining what is good and forbidding evil because that falls under the category of ''ad'deen naseha'' but in the very word you underlined. The ability to judge as in you're going to hell, you're going to heaven, you're evil, you're good, you're pious, you're loosely moraled' and I am willing to recant my position-I am not above learning.

 

[CosmicPathos]

salam sister, when we hate a homosexual, we dont judge saying you are hell-bound. We can just hate him for his crime. If his crime was public, he has make a public repentance for it to be accepted.

you mentoned a story of a gay Muslim brother who is now married. What a good ending. But you have to note that this brother had good conscience, he saw his thoughts/desires as deviance till the end and worked against them. On the contrary we are talking about Muslims who are "okay" with such desires.

Moreover, I am sure at one point or another, we had have thoughts of commiting suicide or killing someone, yet we were able to control them. These homosexuals have something wrong wtih their circuitry and hence they cant control their thoughts for bedding another male.