the ruling on the niqab

['Abd-al Latif]

:salamext:

I don't know if you know the terms used but here is a list of them used in this thread:

Fuqaha = Plural for jurists, specifically the scholars in the field of Islamic jurisprudence;
'awrah = the part of the body considered the private parts of a man or woman Islamically;
Fatwa = Islamic verdict;

Just remember that a fatwa is optional for the individual to follow or not, it is not binding. So keep your situation and circumstance in mind when agreeing with one fatwa or another.

It is only optional to follow if it is a personal opinion, but if it is in accordance with the Qur'an and Sunnah that we must follow it. Even if we were to follow the personal opinion of a scholar than we would be doing something good because scolars are the inheritors of the Prophets, are furtherest to giving weight to their own opinion over the Qur'an and Sunnah and they are closest to that which is correct.

 

[Marina-Aisha]

Thank you cos I didn't know those phases, maybe I should think bout something else..

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Thank you cos I didn't know those phases, maybe I should think bout something else..

No problem. Here are some more which I missed:

Ustadh = teacher;
fard = Obligatory;
wajid = Compulsary (the words fard and wajib are interchangeable in Arabic);
yaqeen = certainty;
zeena = beauty/adornment;
nabi = Prophet;
tawaaf = circumambulation around the Ka'ba in Makkah;
Umrah = Lesser pilgrimage that can be done at any time of the year;
Hajj = Pilgrimage and fifth pillar of Islam, can only be done in a specified time in the Islamic calendar;
mahram = male relative of her family whom a woman is permanently forbidden to marry, such as her brother, father, grandfather etc;
fitrah = natural/innate disposition, nature, instinct etc;

 

[purple]

If elderly women can’t wash herself because of her disability, no one should help her? What you posted also suggest her own relative can’t help her.

So what do you suggest for elderly lady and man to do? Leave that area unclean and don’t wash at all? What about those that are bed bound? Leave them unwashed too? Some cant even go to the toilet without help.

It doesn’t have to be for medical necessities or treatment. It is simply due to disability especially when you are elderly. I suppose we should let them rot away because we can’t see the awrah. And some elderly have no relative (her husband died and has no children or is neglected by her family for instance) whatsoever; I suppose they should never wash again.

Care workers don’t help those that can themselves and most who can wash themselves would prefer to do it themselves. They help elderly and disabled people that cannot wash themselves either because they are too weak or physical disability caused by stroke for example.

I can’t believe our religion would make life difficult for elderly and disabled people. Sometimes, I think our scholar live in a cloud and not in the real world. People need help in washing and dressing not for medical treatment but as part of everday tasks they cannot do themselves. Why do people here need to make life into black and white issue and not see the world as it is?

 

['Abd-al Latif]

If elderly women can’t wash herself because of her disability, no one should help her? What you posted also suggest her own relative can’t help her.

So what do you suggest for elderly lady and man to do? Leave that area unclean and don’t wash at all? What about those that are bed bound? Leave them unwashed too? Some cant even go to the toilet without help.

It doesn’t have to be for medical necessities or treatment. It is simply due to disability especially when you are elderly. I suppose we should let them rot away because we can’t see the awrah. And some elderly have no relative (her husband died and has no children or is neglected by her family for instance) whatsoever; I suppose they should never wash again.

Care workers don’t help those that can themselves and most who can wash themselves would prefer to do it themselves. They help elderly and disabled people that cannot wash themselves either because they are too weak or physical disability caused by stroke for example.

I can’t believe our religion would make life difficult for elderly and disabled people. Sometimes, I think our scholar live in a cloud and not in the real world. People need help in washing and dressing not for medical treatment but as part of everday tasks they cannot do themselves. Why do people here need to make life into black and white issue and not see the world as it is?

I didn't suggest anything except for the words that I wrote. If you noticed, I didn't mention any exceptions either but an absence of its mention does not mean they do not exist. But yeah I suppose you're right, leaving the elderly to care for themselves is probably what I suggested :mmokay:.

The scholars are much more wiser then you've given them credit for. The rulings on websites are viewed by a wide audience, namely by one and all around the world, so their responses and wording has to be very careful so as not to mislead anyone. They have to make issues black and white and not confuse the lay man because how else do you expect him to be practical about it? Is confusing him with every last opinion the right advice? As for someone asking a specific question about helping the elderly, I cannot see them refusing it except after certain conditions are met. It is better for a scholar to speak about such things to a smaller audience, like his local community for example, then to allow the whole world to cut-and-paste one ruling to every situation.

I wish you would ask for a clarification than jumping to an argument all the time. It would create a really pleasant atmosphere.

 

[purple]

I didn't suggest anything except for the words that I wrote. If you noticed, I didn't mention any exceptions either but an absence of its mention does not mean they do not exist. But yeah I suppose you're right, leaving the elderly to care for themselves is probably what I suggested :mmokay:.

The scholars are much more wiser then you've given them credit for. The rulings on websites are viewed by a wide audience, namely by one and all around the world, so their responses and wording has to be very careful so as not to mislead anyone. They have to make issues black and white and not confuse the lay man because how else do you expect him to be practical about it? Is confusing him with every last opinion the right advice? As for someone asking a specific question about helping the elderly, I cannot see them refusing it except after certain conditions are met. It is better for a scholar to speak about such things to a smaller audience, like his local community for example, then to allow the whole world to cut-and-paste one ruling to every situation.

I wish you would ask for a clarification than jumping to an argument all the time. It would create a really pleasant atmosphere.

Most people don’t into their community to ask such question and plus the scholar here did not say to seek advise of local scholar did they?

So a daughter and son will see this ruling and come into their own conclusion. And leave their elderly parent to clean after themselves. And what about those that have no one?

The scholar here did not take wider issue or the fact that I said this:

Care workers don’t help those that can themselves and most who can wash themselves would prefer to do it themselves. They help elderly and disabled people that cannot wash themselves either because they are too weak or physical disability caused by stroke for example.

Care worker dont do their job for fun and they dont help those that can help themselves. So, no the scholar you've posted is not smart at all.


Below I made very valid point! If the sister is thinking of becoming a care woker just to "care" which tasks other than washing and dressing then she should not bother.
This was not a rant
It doesn’t even have to be physical disability. I used to take care for 12 years old that had severe learning disability. She was not even capable mentally to get dressed and wash. She was violent toward her mother. There was no choice but to strip her and wash her ourselves. Her mother couldn’t do it on her own because the 12 years old was huge (taller and bigger than her mother and me) and aggressive. There was no choice but her mother and I to see her awrah. She used to urinate herself in the sofa. Her mother and I had to clean her. So, in this scenario, it is not a medical treatment. And what I said above goes for significant proportion of elderly and disabled people.

No point in working as a carer for elderly or disabled woman if you are not prepared to assist in dressing and washing or even changing their pad. What happens if she urinates or defecates herself? What will you do?

“Sorry Mrs whomever I can’t deal with that and I am just here to give tea and lunch”

And then you will leave her in her own mess. Don’t take up the job as care worker if you are not prepared to do the job.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Most people don’t into their community to ask such question and plus the scholar here did not say to seek advise of local scholar did they?

So a daughter and son will see this ruling and come into their own conclusion. And leave their elderly parent to clean after themselves. And what about those that have no one?

The scholar here did not take wider issue or the fact that I said this:



Care worker dont do their job for fun and they dont help those that can help themselves. So, no the scholar you've posted is not smart at all.

إِنَّمَا يَخْشَى اللَّهَ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ الْعُلَمَاءُ
It is only those who have knowledge among His servants that fear Allah. (Quran: Fatir 35:28)

I advise you to repent based upon this verse.

Islam does not discourage helping the elderly, the Messenger :saws1: said that the one who does not show kindness to the one with grey hair (i.e. the old) and to the young is not one of us (i.e the Muslims). It is encouraged for Muslims to be kind, respectful and caring towards the old, even if that means that one should take care of the elderly as an occupation. If taking care of them means seeing their 'awrah because they cannot maintain themselves and require assistance then this still allowed under the condition that the Muslim doing it is trustworthy, is of the same gender and maintains the dignity of the one he is helping (among other conditions).

I nor the shaykh from islamqa said anywhere that helping the elderly is not allowed, we mentioned the same general ruling that seeing the 'awrah of another person isn't permissible for anyone to see. I specifically also mentioned in my last post that I did not mention any exceptions. Let me mention them now: helping an elderly person, while certain conditions are met, is allowed and permissible.

To say everything you have said so far is your false assumption and judgement.

I strongly advise you not to argue so much. Nothing will misguide you as much as argumentation.

 

[purple]

Islam does not discourage helping the elderly, the Messenger :saws1: said that the one who does not show kindness to the one with grey hair (i.e. the old) and to the young is not one of us (i.e the Muslims). It is encouraged for Muslims to be kind, respectful and caring towards the old, even if that means that one should take care of the elderly as an occupation. If taking care of them means seeing their 'awrah because they cannot maintain themselves and require assistance then this still allowed under the condition that the Muslim doing it is trustworthy, is of the same gender and maintains the dignity of the one he is helping (among other conditions).

I nor the shaykh from islamqa said anywhere that helping the elderly is not allowed, we mentioned the same general ruling that seeing the 'awrah of another person isn't permissible for anyone to see. I specifically also mentioned in my last post that I did not mention any exceptions. Let me mention them now: helping an elderly person, while certain conditions are met, is allowed and permissible.

To say everything you have said so far is your false assumption and judgement.

You don’t get where I cam coming from. More and more people are taking such ruling as black and white in their own lives.

I have problem with them not mentioning exceptions. You are posting such ruling to someone who wants to take care of elderly women. I will say this again, care workers don’t take care of those that can care for themselves. They take care of those that can’t do the task themselves. She will help elderly women that cannot wash or dress themselves. You then posted the ruling and didn’t make an exception that these women she intends to assist cannot wash or dress themselves.

You didn’t make exception here at all. If everything Ive said is false or judgement, then why did you post the ruling here to a sister that want to do this as an occupation?

 

['Abd-al Latif]

You don’t get where I cam coming from. More and more people are taking such ruling as black and white in their own lives.

I have problem with them not mentioning exceptions. You are posting such ruling to someone who wants to take care of elderly women. I will say this again, care workers don’t take care of those that can care for themselves. They take care of those that can’t do the task themselves. She will help elderly women that cannot wash or dress themselves. You then posted the ruling and didn’t make an exception that these women she intends to assist cannot wash or dress themselves.

You didn’t make exception here at all. If everything Ive said is false or judgement, then why did you post the ruling here to a sister that want to do this as an occupation?

I have a reason for not mentioning the exceptions. Would you like to initiate an argument about that too?

 

[purple]

As for the poster,

there are two section you can work in:

Nursing homes

Or in their own homes.

Nursing homes, you have no choice but to take care of men. So rule that one out.

Second option, you can choose to take care of woman. But don’t mention this straight away when they interview you. After they accept you, you tell them that you want to take care of women only. And you can also choose what time you start and finish. It is pretty flexible occupation. You can start at 1pm and finish 5pm if you want to. Warning to you, their pay are low and you will usually have half an hour for each clients expect for those that need more time. They will pay for half of hourly rate for the half an hour service. And they don’t pay for travel expenses. And there risk of injury especially back problem. Learn manual handling correctly and the chances of back pain and injury is significantly less. You will need a lot of energy and strength. And be polite and don’t act like you just doing a job. Look at it from their perspective; to most of them they have lost their dignity. You will get tearful clients, angry clients, aggressive clients, and manipulative clients. You will also have to deal with their relatives a lot, some are overprotected. Some would want to take care of their relative themselves but cant due to several factors like children of their own, they work otherwise they are not entitled to benefits, they are elderly themselves or have disability too etc. So don’t judge them when they are angry at you. They just want the best for their relatives. This is an advice, in case you choose to work as care worker.

 

[ژاله]

........................

 

[ژاله]

I have a reason for not mentioning the exceptions. Would you like to initiate an argument about that too?

^ OP's question was clearly about the 'exceptions'. If you have reasons not to mention them, then you might as well not say anything at all. Because if you just mention the general ruling, and not the exceptions, (especially when the question is about exceptional situations), it gives the impression that either you don't appreciate the problem fully or you are suggesting to leave the disabled people 'in their mess'. Hence the arguments.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

salam peeps,
Recently ive been feeling that i might wear the niqab but im not sure..i just wanted to know what the ruling on the niqab.......if i do decide to wear it will i not get a job?because im changing my job soon..salam

edit: also im looking to do a carer job for the elderly is it permissable to see elderly men nakeness?

Asalaamu alaikum my sister. Regarding the Niqaab then the four imaams, tabi'een tabi'een tabi'een and the majority of scholars of the past and present have ruled it obligatory particularly when there is fear of fitnah. Another valid opinion is that it is not obligatory but optional but at the same time Mustahab (recommended) .

I have asked a scholar for you regarding your query about having to see the elderly naked in your job when looking after them and he said that it is only permissable if it cannot be avoided but she should still try her best not to gaze upon the nakedness and also try to find someone of same gender for the elderly man but if it is not avoidable then it is permissable out of necessity.

And Allah knows best in all matters

 

[purple]

^Bro Hamza read my last post. She can avoid elderly men if she choose to take the second option I've mentioned.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

^Bro Hamza read my last post. She can avoid elderly men if she choose to take the second option I've mentioned.

Asalaamu alaikum then if she can avoid it by taking the second option then she should take it.

 

[TrueStranger]

:salamext:

It is only optional to follow if it is a personal opinion, but if it is in accordance with the Qur'an and Sunnah that we must follow it. Even if we were to follow the personal opinion of a scholar than we would be doing something good because scolars are the inheritors of the Prophets, are furtherest to giving weight to their own opinion over the Qur'an and Sunnah and they are closest to that which is correct.

A fatwa is not a personal opinion, but a scholarly opinion that carries more weight. They're required to issue a fatwa after carefully analyzing religious evidence that might oppose or support a particular matter. However, a Fatwa is not binding, but a qada is. Whether one decides to follow a particular Fatwa or not is completely their choice. I agree, that it's wise to heed the scholarly opinions of our scholars, but some of them do differ and represent different circumstance and situations that certain individuals are facing.

So, yes, each individual should have a good understanding of their own situation and be informed about various fatwas that are issued by our scholars.


:wa:

 

[$tranger]

A Scholar once said

if you believe yourself to be 'beautiful' you must wear the niqaab... :x

 

[Marina-Aisha]

^^^ all that's kinda beautiful

To everyone thank you for your help, I've got interview tomorrow so hopefully I'll get it, as to seeing there bodies Im just gonna request just to work with women. I don't want to get a job and lie or on false pretenses. All I want is to help people do something meaningful.

 

[ILuvAllah]

 

['Abd-al Latif]

^ OP's question was clearly about the 'exceptions'. If you have reasons not to mention them, then you might as well not say anything at all. Because if you just mention the general ruling, and not the exceptions, (especially when the question is about exceptional situations), it gives the impression that either you don't appreciate the problem fully or you are suggesting to leave the disabled people 'in their mess'. Hence the arguments.

And this:

Asalaamu alaikum then if she can avoid it by taking the second option then she should take it.

Is why I left out the exceptions. The exception means where there is no other alternative. That is not what the original poster asked for. I had said specifically on an earlier post that I intend and suggest no more than what I have said. Hence, I'm trying to understand the cause of the argumentations?