Answering Atheism in one paragraph

[Ali_008]

Sister Zaria, it was quite difficult to find anything about Big Bang Theory online, because all whenever you'd search for it, 99% of the results would be about the CBS sitcom. Earlier, at least, if you made the search for "Stephen Hawking Big Bang", you'd find some relevant data, but even that is not possible since Stephen Hawking did a guest appearance on the sitcom. :heated:

Hawking did postulate that there was no concept of time before Big Bang. I don't know what logic he gave behind it, but what I think it ought to be that way. I mean, how would you measure time without the sun, no sunrise, no sunset, no days, no months, so on and so forth.

 

[Ali_008]

Independent, I know Stephen Hawking is an atheist, but mostly the God he refers to disbelieve in is the Christian God, i.e., Jesus Christ. On multiple occasions, he has said that it is foolish to believe a "MAN" has supernatural powers so big that they control the universe.

I believe in spontaneous creation too. In fact, it is most compatible with theist beliefs. If you recall the law of conservation of energy, it states that "energy is neither created nor destroyed, it can only be transferred from one form to another." All it does is prove God's existence. Universe cannot be said to have been in existence since forever, I mean even it came into existence only after Big bang. So it obviously means that there was something even before Big Bang happened to transfer the energy for the explosion. Newton's first law states "An object at rest will stay at rest unless an unbalanced force acts on it." It only means that there was some trigger that lead to the Big Bang as well.

 

[Abz2000]

Ok, so could an atheist please tell me what explanation he gives himself when things that men claiming to be sent by God prophesied thousands of years ago - happen exactly as described and we see them develop before our very eyes?
I know the explanation the atheist lamestream media give is "magic" - despite they themselves refusing to accept they believe in magic!

Something that God fitted us with when he made us is INTELLECT, and it doesn't take loads and loads of intellect to put two and two together and realise that they were speaking is the truth.

They're something called trustworthy witnesses who came with credentials,
The only trustworthy witnesses atheists seem to have is stuff like fox news and the bbc, and people like George bush and tony Blair etc and the schools and colleges they control.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Are invisible undedectable space aliens sitting beside you right now, watching you and taking notes? You can't disprove it. You have no solid foundation for disbelief in it. But do you worry about such a thing?

Don't even get started about the things that are invisible to the naked eye. If that was the case then subjects like microbiology, nanotechnology, astrophysics, and all of chemistry would be the biggest prank pulled on humanity. Have a look at the image below, do you think all these heavenly bodies have been detected or felt by human touch?

I don't understand this response to the text you quoted. You do worry about undetectable space aliens sitting beside you and taking notes? Do you worry about an unknown undetectable being that will strike you dead tomorrow morning if you don't eat a ham sandwich this afternoon?

My point is not that we should dismiss something as impossible because we can not directly observe it or have no evidence for it. My point is that unless and until we find convincing evidence that it exists it makes no sense to claim it does. I would also point out that those examples you give are all things we have theorized and detected indirectly, forming falsifiable theories and trying to prove them wrong. That is very different from how you guys address the God idea.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Ok, so could an atheist please tell me what explanation he gives himself when things that men claiming to be sent by God prophesied thousands of years ago - happen exactly as described and we see them develop before our very eyes?

The same kinds of explanations that are given when Nostradamus is claimed to have done it, or when the ancient Egyptians are. Only the believers in each of the foregoing manage to convince themselves that their books have prophecies that all come true.

Something that God fitted us with when he made us is INTELLECT, and it doesn't take loads and loads of intellect to put two and two together and realise that they were speaking is the truth.

It is pretty ironic that we have so many muslims in this thread speaking rudely and trying to insult the intelligence.... of people who do not see their imaginary friend.

The only trustworthy witnesses atheists seem to have is stuff like fox news and the bbc, and people like George bush and tony Blair etc and the schools and colleges they control.

Fox News and George Bush are atheists???

 

[Indian Bro]

As-salamu alaykum

I guess we could accept that no one will really know how the universe came into being SCIENTIFICALLY. Some will say it just began while some will say God created it. With that said, anyone who solely depends upon science AND only decides his/her faith on God based on how the universe began will never conclude that there is a God. I'd like to conclude by saying, it wont make a difference if science proves the Big Bang Theory to be false or true because at the end of the day science is not reliable at all compared to Islam, science has been wrong a MILLION times before, whereas Islam has never been wrong, ever. This is something no atheist can deny and is a sign of God Almighty in itself.

Salam 3laikum

 

[Pygoscelis]

Islam has never been wrong, ever. This is something no atheist can deny and is a sign of God Almighty in itself.

It says absolutely nothing if Islam is not falsifiable. Is Islam falsifiable? If it is, then we could actually investigate it scientifically, and maybe find convincing evidence for it and end atheism once and for all.

 

[~Zaria~]

You do worry about undetectable space aliens sitting beside you and taking notes?

It is called having Faith - belief in the unseen.

We believe in jinn and angels, heaven and hell not because we are crazy - but because we have Faith.

One can only reach this point of faith, after acknowledging that there is no other possibility available, with regards to our existence, but for A Supreme Being - One who is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, All-knowing, and upon whom we owe our very existence to.

If we cannot reach this point of acknowledgement, then there is no point in speaking of the actual beliefs held within ones faith - and mocking them in the manner above.

As clearly demonstrated in this thread, despite defying logical reasoning and argument - some atheists will continue to clutch tightly onto theories that exist, simply because it verifies for them, a world where a creator is not required.

An atheist may argue that theories that attribute the universe as being 'open' ( i.e. infinite in terms of time and space ) has not been refuted.

We are merely saying the following:

There is no need to try to refute each and every theory that rears its head - in the face of overwhelming logic and evidence supporting the contrary.

(For example, I do not need to try to refute the claims made by the Flat Earth Society - because we are all aware of overwhelming evidence (both scientifically and otherwise) supporting the fact that the earth is round.

For those who are still not convinced with all of the explanations already provided in this thread, they can also refer here:

http://www.emjc3.com/OriginOfTheUniverseEastman.htm

http://www.oocities.org/bourbonstreet/7978/pillars.html


And if you still not satisfied with these arguments - then, as I have mentioned, you need to ask yourself why you are fighting so hard to deny the existence of a Creator. (We are not mentioning WHO the Creator is at the moment, we are simply trying to get to the point of a Creator actually existing!)

What do you have to lose by acknowledging that there is a Creator behind this wondrous universe?
You are content in accepting that there is a creator behind everything else that is produced.
Does that make sense?


From a muslim perspective, we will never accept an infinite universe model, simply because:

1. We already believe in the Creator.
2. We believe that everything He says is TRUE.
3. So, everything that goes against His truth - is undeniably, unquestionably and without doubt false.


Allah says in the Quraan (Ch 112 - V1-4)

"Say: He is Allah, the One!

meaning,- He is the One, the Singular,
- Who has no peer,
- no assistant, no rival,
- no equal and none comparable to Him.
​

Allah, the ETERNALLY Besought of ALL!

This means the One Who all of the creation depends upon for their needs and their requests.

"[FONT=_PDMS_Saleem_QuranFont]الصَّمَدُ[/FONT] As-Samad is One Who does not give birth, nor was He born, because there is nothing that is born except that it will die, and there is nothing that dies except that it leaves behind inheritance, and indeed Allah does not die and He does not leave behind any inheritance
​

He begetteth not, nor was begotten

meaning, He does not have any child, parent or spouse.

​

And there is NONE comparable unto Him."

This means that there is none similar to Him, none equal to Him and there is nothing at all like Him.

​

(Commentary from Ibn Kathir)
​

​

In other words, all of these descriptions, that have been given to Allah (by Himself) - belong ONLY to Allah.
There is nothing else that will ever fit these meanings.


Hence, we do not need any further 'experiments' or 'deductions' to prove to us that the universe is indeed finite.
Because, from the above, infinity belongs to Allah (subhanawataála) alone.



Regards

 

[Ali_008]

My point is not that we should dismiss something as impossible because we can not directly observe it or have no evidence for it. My point is that unless and until we find convincing evidence that it exists it makes no sense to claim it does. I would also point out that those examples you give are all things we have theorized and detected indirectly, forming falsifiable theories and trying to prove them wrong. That is very different from how you guys address the God idea.

That's the whole point of faith, dear brother. Allah has given sufficient evidence for people to believe in Him. He does not need to prove anything to anyone, yet he keeps sending reminders from time to time for people to return to him. Faith also seeks that you have belief in the unseen, and angels fall under the same category.

I don't need any "convincing evidence" to believe in angels, because science itself has not reached its peak yet. We all know that there are a plethora of questions that science has still not been able to answer. I'm not against science in anyway, rather the advancement of science has exhibited the magnificent architecture of not just earth, but the entire universe; solidifying my imaan even more, alhamdulillah. I don't rely on science to make decisions for me. It is one thing today, and will be an altogether different thing tomorrow.

Also, it doesn't necessarily mean that "invisible alien" is sitting right next to me. We all know how surveillance works. Who knows this surveillance also works in similar forms as hidden cams and stuff??

 

[Pygoscelis]

That's the whole point of faith, dear brother. Allah has given sufficient evidence for people to believe in Him.

Evidently not. Not evidence that is convincing to many non-muslims anyway.

We all know that there are a plethora of questions that science has still not been able to answer.

And there probably always will be. The difference between you and I is what we do with that lack of knowledge. You see Faith as a virtue, and use it to fill in your ignorance with answers you have convinced yourself are from on high. I see Faith as a vice, and try to avoid it as best I can, avoid such illusions, and tolerate the discomfort of not knowing. I seek as best I can to find empirical knowledge through science, but I know full well that my knowledge will never be as complete or as certain or as re-assuring as your "knowledge". That is a price I am willing to pay.

 

[Pygoscelis]

It is called having Faith - belief in the unseen.

We believe in jinn and angels, heaven and hell not because we are crazy - but because we have Faith.

How do you tell the difference? Crazy seems a harsh word, but how do you know you are not self deluded? Why should I prefer your faith over the faith of people you would apparently call crazy?

One can only reach this point of faith, after acknowledging that there is no other possibility available, with regards to our existence, but for A Supreme Being - One who is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, All-knowing, and upon whom we owe our very existence to.

You haven't even attempted to prove that. You've made some attempt to prove the universe is a closed system, that is all. You'd have a very very long way to go to get from that (if we accepted it as certain, which nobody should) to the rest of what you now claim here.

As clearly demonstrated in this thread, despite defying logical reasoning and argument - some atheists will continue to clutch tightly onto theories that exist, simply because it verifies for them, a world where a creator is not required.

You seem to think that atheists have an agenda to believe there is no God, instead of simply not being convinced that there is one. I've seen this claimed a few times on this forum. The claim seems to be that atheists know God exists but rebel against him and don't want to believe he is there, so they can engage in all sorts of evil. This claim is made repeatedly in forums such as this despite actual atheists assuring people that it isn't so. It is pretty insulting when folks here rant on about what and how atheists think, in the face of actual atheists saying otherwise. It is tantamount to calling the atheists liars... and yet somehow civil discussion is expected from the atheists in response?

It would be like if a non-Muslim went on and on claiming that Muslims are all terrorists and that they all want to kill us and stifle our freedoms, etc, in the face of actual Muslims writing responses dispelling such myths.

What do you have to lose by acknowledging that there is a Creator behind this wondrous universe?

Nothing. I would acknowledge that if I thought it true.

From a muslim perspective, we will never accept an infinite universe model, simply because:

1. We already believe in the Creator.
2. We believe that everything He says is TRUE.
3. So, everything that goes against His truth - is undeniably, unquestionably and without doubt false.

So, you rail against atheists and accuse them of being closed minded, and then you express pride in your own closed mindedness?

 

[Ali_008]

Evidently not. Not evidence that is convincing to many non-muslims anyway.

Muslims aren't the only theists in this world, dear friend. Polytheists, as well, worship the Almighty God along with whatever partners they've chosen to join with Him. Total disbelief can be accredited only to atheists. Somehow, I feel atheists are better than polytheists because of what Dr. Zakir Naik says about them. According to him, half of the job of a Muslim is already done in the case of an atheist, because the atheist would have already attested half of the shahadah La Ilaaha (which means "there is no God"), and a Muslim only needs to prove the other half, i.e., Illa Allah (but Allah); whereas with a polytheist, you first need to prove it to him that the God he's worshiping isn't God, and then lead him to Allah.

The difference between you and I is what we do with that lack of knowledge. You see Faith as a virtue, and use it to fill in your ignorance with answers you have convinced yourself are from on high. I see Faith as a vice, and try to avoid it as best I can, avoid such illusions, and tolerate the discomfort of not knowing. I seek as best I can to find empirical knowledge through science, but I know full well that my knowledge will never be as complete or as certain or as re-assuring as your "knowledge". That is a price I am willing to pay.

I understand what you're saying. Most atheists assume pious people to be fools because of the same reason. Religious folks are looked upon as dumb, because they've chosen to settle with something that may or may not completely make sense. For you, it is the gap of knowledge that separates you from theists. For others, it can be some article of faith such as modesty, abstinence from premarital intercourse, alcohol, pork that draws the line.

I totally respect what you just said, but I can't really say that I agree with it. Don't get me wrong, I say that because I didn't embrace Islam because it talked about Big Bang, or earth's geo-spherical shape, or moon's borrowed light, or the barrier between sweet and salty waters. Islam came to me with such a force that I was overwhelmed with it. The entire cycle of being risen after death to account for all the deeds that one does throughout his life started making so much sense to me that turning away from Islam seemed like the worst decision of my life. I'm a born Muslim, but I learnt about Islam only in 2006. I was as good as a non-Muslim before that.

I turned to Allah. In 2007, I started practicing Islam, and sought more knowledge. As I would go forward, I learned how beautiful each principle of Islam really was, because not only did it prohibit sinful deeds, but it also gave instructions about creating an environment where sinning would become close to impossible. Further down the line, I learned about how scientific facts are present in the Qur'an, and it was just icing to the cake for me.

Science was never the yardstick for me. It was the entire philosophy behind Islam that gravitated me towards it. Science never was, nor ever can be the measuring stone for any religion, because scientific theories are never constant, and keep changing from time to time except for concrete facts such as gravity, earth's shape, respiration, and others. Do I care whether the Qur'an agrees with Big Bang? Absolutely not. However, I always rejoice when I come to know about scientific discoveries that concur with the Qur'an. Compatibility between religion and science is used so widely in today's age, because it is the age of technology.

Even right now, evolution is one subject which is in conflict with Islam. If evolution is solidified as a fact tomorrow, will I drop Islam? No. That's because I didn't pick Islam as a science text book. I picked it because it felt the right thing for me, and everybody around me.

P.s. - Secretly, I'd also be waiting for the day when evolution is proven wrong. ;D

 

[Pygoscelis]

Ali_008, you write elequently and I respect your view. We just seem to come at it from different perspectives

Even right now, evolution is one subject which is in conflict with Islam. If evolution is solidified as a fact tomorrow, will I drop Islam? No. That's because I didn't pick Islam as a science text book. I picked it because it felt the right thing for me, and everybody around me.

That is something that has always confused me a little. Are you sure evolution conflicts with Islam? Could Allah not be an invisible hand that set it up or something like that?

P.s. - Secretly, I'd also be waiting for the day when evolution is proven wrong. ;D

lol me too! I love when the prevailing scientific theory is proven wrong. It gives us an opportunity to shift paradigms and learn so much more than we knew before.

 

[~Zaria~]

Greetings,

How do you tell the difference? Crazy seems a harsh word, but how do you know you are not self deluded?

Being self-deluded would entail believing in something that goes against rational, logical thinking.

Having 'faith'- is believing something, that is unseen - because it makes sense as well as the fact that it appeals to our natural inclination.

If Islam permitted actions that went completely against logic, (as an example - if it permitted the use of intoxicants that is known to be harmful to mankind and which makes him lose his senses) - then, most certainly, I would question this......and even be inclined towards disbelief.

This is not blinded faith.
As described by brother Ali008, it has taken most of us, a certain level of study and comprehension of the religion - before we fully embraced it.

And once we reach this point, then we also realise, that there are some things in life that we will not be able to fully comprehend.
For example: there will be some women, who question the permissibility of polygamy in islam.
There will be others who wonder why men are entitled to greater inheritence than women.
etc.

The difference is: that once we have believed in the One Creator, who is All-Powerful and All-Knowing, and once we have submitted to Him - out of Love (as well as some fear), then we realise that this is His decree.
That He is our Creator, our Lord. We are His servants.
We are not even capable of producing the very air that we require for our survival, nor the rain that falls onto earth.......we owe our entire existence to Him.
And we also realise that our intellect is limited. The Creator knows more than His Creation.
So, in humility - we accept, that He knows best - in all matters. And that it is ONLY for our benefit (never for our harm), because He dearly loves us.

Why should I prefer your faith over the faith of people you would apparently call crazy?

As mentioned, this is a discussion in itself, that requires another thread.
For now, God-willingly, we are only trying to bring to realisation, that there is without any shadow of doubt, irrespective of what some 'scientific models' hold - a Creator.

You seem to think that atheists have an agenda to believe there is no God, instead of simply not being convinced that there is one. I've seen this claimed a few times on this forum. The claim seems to be that atheists know God exists but rebel against him and don't want to believe he is there, so they can engage in all sorts of evil. This claim is made repeatedly in forums such as this despite actual atheists assuring people that it isn't so. It is pretty insulting when folks here rant on about what and how atheists think, in the face of actual atheists saying otherwise. It is tantamount to calling the atheists liars... and yet somehow civil discussion is expected from the atheists in response?

I truly do not believe, that the reason for disbelief is so that atheists can engage in evil.
As we know, even those who do believe, commit evil actions.

What we cannot understand, is when atheists are provided good, sound, logical arguments - yet continue to deny them, for reasons that remain unknown.
If you have read through the 2 links provided in my previous post as well as the article earlier on - and still, claim that the universe is 'open' - despite this, then there is not much more that we can do.

We can only take one to the water. We cannot (and it is not our intention to) force him to drink.

So, you rail against atheists and accuse them of being closed minded, and then you express pride in your own closed mindedness?

I think I have addressed this point above.



Regards

 

[Pygoscelis]

What we cannot understand, is when atheists are provided good, sound, logical arguments - yet continue to deny them, for reasons that remain unknown.

The reasons are simple. We are not convinced that your arguments are good, sound, or logical. There is no secret atheist need to not believe in Gods. We just don't see any good reason to believe in them. I know you all get insulted when I compare God to other mythical beings like Santa, faeries, vampires, loch ness, big foot, etc, but I do so to try to drive the point home, the point that you don't seem to want to accept, that we simply see the God claim as having no good convincing evidence for it. We see no more evidence for it than for these other mythical beings.

If you have read through the 2 links provided in my previous post as well as the article earlier on - and still, claim that the universe is 'open' - despite this, then there is not much more that we can do.

I am not certain one way or the other. Nobody in this thread has actually claimed that the universe is open by the way, people have merely noted the possibility. You keep trying to put words in our mouths.

We are now many pages deep into this thread and atheism has not been much addressed, nevermind "answered". It wasn't done in one paragraph, as claimed in the OP, and nor has it been done since. All we've had is an attempt to show the universe is a closed system, with an off the cuff dismissal of the concept of infinity (while simultaneously endorsing the concept of infinity for your God), and a shrugging off the alternate theories that Independent presented.

No reason or evidence has been given for why a closed system requires a creator. No reason or evidence has been given for why that creator must be a sentient all powerful being we should call a God.

I think I have addressed this point above.

You were accusing atheists of being closed minded, and then you proudly declared your own inflexibility. Where did you address this hypocrisy?

 

[~Zaria~]

You keep trying to put words in our mouths.

I should have said: "If you have read through the 2 links provided in my previous post as well as the article earlier on - and still, claim [the possibility] that the universe is 'open' - despite this, then there is not much more that we can do.
Still comes down to the same point that is being made.

No reason or evidence has been given for why a closed system requires a creator.

Perhaps you can explain to us - How does something that is finite (i.e. have a beginnning) originate on its own - i.e. without a creator?
Is there a scientific model that demonstrates this?

Where did you address this hypocrisy?

Was there a need for this insult?

I have addressed it in the beginning of the post 153.
If you do not agree with whats been said - this does not make the person a hypocrite.
What you call 'close-mindedness', we call faith - the meaning of which has already been provided.

 

[Al-Mufarridun]

The difference between you and I is what we do with that lack of knowledge. You see Faith as a virtue, and use it to fill in your ignorance with answers you have convinced yourself are from on high. I see Faith as a vice, and try to avoid it as best I can, avoid such illusions, and tolerate the discomfort of not knowing. I seek as best I can to find empirical knowledge through science, but I know full well that my knowledge will never be as complete or as certain or as re-assuring as your "knowledge". That is a price I am willing to pay.

This sentence is very revealing and helps me understand were you are coming from.

I was wondering if you read the Qur'an, or any books on Islamic Monotheism?

 

[tearose]

I know you all get insulted when I compare God to other mythical beings like Santa, faeries, vampires, loch ness, big foot, etc, ... We see no more evidence for it than for these other mythical beings.

Only young children believe in Santa and only a tiny minority of people believe in the other things you mentioned, whereas billions of people around the world have some sort of theistic belief. This in itself isn't necessarily evidence for the existence of God, but in my opinion it means that belief in God should be considered more seriously than the other things you mentioned.

 

[Pygoscelis]

I should have said: "If you have read through the 2 links provided in my previous post as well as the article earlier on - and still, claim [the possibility] that the universe is 'open' - despite this, then there is not much more that we can do.

Independent addressed this and said all that really can be said. There are other theories, which allow for an open universe, and these theories are not crack pot theories with no rationales. They are put forth by leading scientists. I don't adopt any particular theory, open or closed, and I am not confident that it is possible, given our human limitations, even with endless vigorous scientific investigation to ever truly know.

Was there a need for this insult?

Given your double standard presented and your rudeness upthread, yes there really was.

If you do not agree with whats been said - this does not make the person a hypocrite.

No, but it does make a person a hypocrite to demand flexibility and open mindedness from others while proclaiming faith, certainty, inflexibility, and closed mindedness herself. If you are inflexible, then why would you mock others by accusing them of being inflexible? Is this a case of projection? My mind is open to change should really good evidence and argument proving the gods come along. Is your mind open to change as well? Do you seek to falsify your religious view or only to confirm it?

 

[Pygoscelis]

This sentence is very revealing and helps me understand were you are coming from.

I was wondering if you read the Qur'an, or any books on Islamic Monotheism?

I grew up in Canada, which has religious people, but isn't as die hard as say the bible belt or Saudi Arabia. I did not meet a fundamentalist in any form until I started interacting on the internet many years ago. I came in with the false belief that there were no true theists, or at least very very few of them. I thought that people went along with God ideas as part of their culture, for social cohesion. It was shocking to me to meet people (Christians at the time) who truly, strongly, and completely believed these stories, literally. It was difficult for me to believe that was possible, and yet here were people in front of me who did exactly that, and they were not crazies, but intelligent and otherwise rational people.

I was fascinated by the phenomenon of religious belief, and I started looking into why people believe it. I looked at the effects of upbringing and culture, and the rise and fall of different religions throughout history and how they spread. I looked at how they evolved, borrowing ideas from each other, and shifting and shaping themselves over time, splitting off into various sects, etc. For example, the origin of the Catholic Church and how the bible books were selected and assembled is interesting and surprising to many.

I was especially fascinated by the psychology of religious belief and how it worked in both individuals and groups, why people would adopt such beliefs, how it benefited or harmed them, etc. I was fascinated by conversion and apostacy, social confirmity, authoritarianism, group think, tribalism, etc.

These social and psychological phenomena then all became interesting to me in their own right, outside of religious context. Patriotism and nationalism are interesting to look at, as are sports fans, etc. This all let me to my undergraduate studies in psychology and social cognition. This stuff still interests me, even though I have moved on to a different career focus now.

Although I had spent a lot of time back then reading various religious texts and listening to many religious views and experiences through this paradigm, I had not spent much time reading or thinking about Islam, having had no real exposure to it. That changed with 9/11. After 9/11 there were a lot of claims made by the media and people I spoke to and read online, and I wanted to investigate that and see what was true and what was islamophobia. That is what led me to this forum, and others which have muslim views represented on them. I have read some books, including the Quran, but I am more interested in what people actually believe and how they act on those beliefs, which is better gleamed from themselves (as they may read the books differently than I do)

Interacting with Muslims, especially fundamentalist Muslims, brought me right back into my fascination with religious psychology. That people will protest violently over a cartoon, or pray so many times per day, or pride themselves on being "slaves" to a perceived authority figure (Allah) is pretty amazing to me.

Hmm, that's a bit long winded lol. To answer your question, yes I have read some on Islamic Monotheism. ;D