what the rabid French dogs did to Algeria & now Mali's turn from your money

[Jedi_Mindset]

Certainly the French have a hidden agenda for intervening in Mali, but despite that agenda, they're intervening against an extremistsgroup who uses violence to terrorise a society. So all things considered, I consider the intervention a good thing.

Are you kidding me? Muslim allying with kufar french forces to kill other muslims? I dont want to spread takfir, since its not my job to do, i'm not from the ulema or a pious scholar. But man, you need to watch out where you are getting headed, by supporting western interventions? Stop watching media. I urge you to study history, we muslims will be in war with the romans till the hour, history has proven this and today it has proven, and in the future it will still be going on.

Mali forces accused of myriad abuses in Western-backed fight


''The International Federation for Human Rights (FIDH) says Mali's army has been killing people it accuses of being "infiltrators" or rebel "accomplices" – but also those who are seen carrying weapons, or who are simply unable to produce identification. Summary executions have been documented in at least three towns, while ethnic Tuaregs in the capital Bamako have had their houses raided by Malian troops, the group says.
"In Sévaré, at least 11 individuals were executed in the military camp, near the bus station and near the hospital. Reliable information report close to 20 other executions in the same area where bodies are said to have been buried very hastily, in particular in the wells," the FIDH said in a statement.
"Other allegations of summary executions continue to come from all areas of the west and center of the country," it continued.''

Ready for talks?

Mali’s Ansar Dine rebel organization has fragmented and formed a new movement, claiming it wants to reach a solution to the crisis through diplomacy.
Former Ansar Dine head Alghabass Ag Intalla told Malian radio RFI that the breakaway organization was looking for a“negotiated solution” to the conflict. He said the offshoot group would be called the Islamic Movement.
Additionally, the group has stated that it "rejected all forms of extremism and terrorism.”

Ansar dine and this new group both reject extremism(Mainly secterianism and wrong intepetrations of qu'ran and shariah)


​Ansar dine offered peace talks but this facist puppet government of mali straight refused. So who is the aggressor?

But if you support this intervention go ahead, look who is going home in their coffins, certainly not the ''islamists'' in the north, but the foreign troops and frenchies. Maybe this is also what they want full destabilzation in the region, so oil companies like BP can pump oil in algeria and the rest of the sahel.

 

[sister herb]

Salam alaykum

I hope we could discuss in English forum by English, not by Arabic or by French. If someone likes to use other languages, he/she can do it in forum by these languages or in other sections of forum.

Hopely that is not too much to ask in English forum.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Jedi Mindset,
Aselam aleykum

I don't think I'm heading anywhere, and I don't think my opinions are in any way dangerous. I don't "pick side" based on who's a muslim or not. I was glad to hear France decided to intervene because in the long term they might actually have a chance of eventually finding stability and safety. Sure i agree that they'll have to pay a heavy price for it, and France will surely loot allot of their natural wealth. But if I was living over there and I had to choose between getting financially raped by France, Or getting terrorised by some rebels who claim to be enforcing Shariah, my choice would quickly be made. And by that I'm not trying to glorify what France is doing. there isn't a second of doubt in my mind as to what their motives are. My point is just that they are clearly the "lesser evil" in this case.

 

[جوري]

Are you kidding me?

May :Allah: :swt: help guide the Muslims who have no concept whatsoever of Walaa and Baraa- worse yet can't seem to distinguish the difference between occupation and self-defense!
Is there more to discuss beyond this?

in English forum.

This is an Islamic forum not an English forum. Why is this still an issue? As stated if the topic is difficult for you, then simply skip it.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Oh so killing people because they have commited a small sin (in your interpretation of fiqh) is self defence? If you don't wish to discuss such a naive position that is of coourse youre choice, but if you think you can bully other people into not voicing thir opinions, then you got another thing comming.

Oh, and on a side note.
Yes this is an Islamic forum in the sense that Islam is the main topic. But it is also an English forum in the sense that English is the main spoken language. there in fatc even some subforums, designated for different languages. Last I checked you did not make the rules here, so please stop pretending you did.

 

[Indian Bro]

Oh so killing people because they have commited a small sin (in your interpretation of fiqh) is self defence? If you don't wish to discuss such a naive position that is of coourse youre choice, but if you think you can bully other people into not voicing thir opinions, then you got another thing comming.

As-salamu alaykum,

Brother, I don't mean to offend your wisdom, but correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't these "Muslims" in Mali worshiping graves? If this is true, then how could you call this a "small sin" when in fact this is "shirk", the biggest sin imaginable in the face of Islam. Or am I misinformed, please correct me if so.

Salam 3laikum

 

[جوري]

One deals with the topic of having her brother's heads chopped off and paraded around by demanding the topic be in English and the other by deflecting all together to make Muslims who are under attack by the same colonialists somehow the bad guy and not only that but is actually happy foreign forces are intervening in a sovereign nation and given a carte blanche to do so.. Sob7an Allah will wonders ever cease? .. how exactly in their dictionary does this make sense? I have no clue, but this takes it to a level far beneath nativity!

 

[Ali_008]

Let's pray together that we stop fighting among ourselves because Allah knows we have enough rivals out of our deen to deal with.

Secondly, pray for the people of Mali that they don't end up like fellow Muslims of Iraq, and Afghanistan, and Allah guides them to the truth, and protects them from the hideous sin of grave worship and all kinds of shirk.

 

[Indian Bro]

As-salamu alaykum,

We should pray for our brothers and sisters suffering in Mali. I don't think anyone can approve of their brothers and sisters dying in any circumstance, clearly people have been misinformed and the media is doing a good job if the case is so. I created a thread about the Indian Media exposing it's Anti-Islamic propaganda, yet the moderators have not approved of it. I wonder what's the hold up?

Salam 3laikum

 

[tearose]

My point is just that they are clearly the "lesser evil" in this case.

Surely it should be the other way around? If those in Mali want to establish an Islamic state, but are making a few mistakes in doing so, at least later on when they are more established someone more knowledgeable could correct them. But if France goes in and tries to set up a Western-style system, it will be much more difficult to have sharia at all.

 

[sister herb]

This is an Islamic forum not an English forum. Why is this still an issue? As stated if the topic is difficult for you, then simply skip it.

Salam alaykum

This is Islamic forum yes where members use English as discussing language. Not an Arabic. Some of members of this forums aren´t muslims neither we can´t expect that all muslim members know Arabic language. Here is also Arabic section to only Arabic discussions.

What if we use here only English and member who copy&past news from Arabic websites also translate it to English.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Aselam aleykum Indian Brother

As-salamu alaykum,
Brother, I don't mean to offend your wisdom, but correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't these "Muslims" in Mali worshiping graves? If this is true, then how could you call this a "small sin" when in fact this is "shirk", the biggest sin imaginable in the face of Islam. Or am I misinformed, please correct me if so.
Salam 3laikum

Shirk is indeed a big sin, I wasn't refering to that. there's allot of other laws that these rebels are trying to enforce. and even for shirk you don't kill people. That is between them and Allah. There is a dead-sentence for some sins in Shariah, yes, but it has due proces. A trial with a judge, and a whole list of requirements that need to be met for a sentence. Not a bunch of little boys who think they will become men by killing people for every little sin they can spot. In fact most things are not things which are supposed to be enforced by law, but are a personal choice.


SurelyAselam aleykum tearose

it should be the other way around? If those in Mali want to establish an Islamic state, but are making a few mistakes in doing so, at least later on when they are more established someone more knowledgeable could correct them. But if France goes in and tries to set up a Western-style system, it will be much more difficult to have sharia at all.

I don't know about you, but Personally I would prefer living in a secular country where I'm safe as opposed to living in a so called "muslim" country where I can get prosecuted because I might have a diffrent view on Islam, and interpret rules differently.


شَادِنُ

One deals with the topic of having her brother's heads chopped off and paraded around by demanding the topic be in English and the other by deflecting all together to make Muslims who are under attack by the same colonialists somehow the bad guy and not only that but is actually happy foreign forces are intervening in a sovereign nation and given a carte blanche to do so.. Sob7an Allah will wonders ever cease? .. how exactly in their dictionary does this make sense? I have no clue, but this takes it to a level far beneath nativity!

Yes, those extremist rebels are defenitly the bad guy. And you say you have no clue about how that makes sense? Well it seems to me that you have two options then:
1. You can continue to try and ridicule my point of view (which you admittedly don't understand), and be self-righteousness about it.
2. You can attempt to have a constructive adult debate about it, and you might actually learn something.
The choice is off course entirely up to you. But as I said, I will not be bullied into silence by that attitude of yours. I mean serisouly, is that any way to respond? Somebody says something you don't understand and so you try to ridicule that person and make a whole charade about it? And then I'm the one who's taking down the level of this thread?

 

[جوري]

You can continue to try and ridicule my point of view

Not only ridicule but will point out that what you're doing here puts you outside the fold of Islam:



The Muslims' singling out of the hypocrites and their renunciation of them are both supported by the Prophet's own example. Ibn al-Qayyim observes that: "the Prophet said that we should take them at face value, leave Allah to deal with what they hide, but confront them with knowledge and truth.
Allah told him to oppose them and to be stern with them, but to try to appeal to their better judgement. He was forbidden from praying at their funerals and from visiting their graves. Allah has said that whatever he did He would not forgive them"341.


We have already seen how the most prominent features of their behaviour are their fondness for the disbelievers, their distaste for Islam and their abandonment of the Muslims. In fact, Allah made this clear in the revelation warning the Muslims to be careful and to keep away from them. In Surah At-Tawbah we were warned to oppose them and to meet them sternly. Sternness towards them would
itself be a kind of Jihad: Allah says:
339 Al-Ma'idah: 59-60.
340 Al-Ma'idah: 68.
341 Zad al-Ma'ad: (Vol. 3/161).

O Prophet! Strive hard against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern towards them. Their resting place is Hell, and worst indeed is that destination 342
These same words also appear in Surah At-Tahrim, verse 9. Surah At-Tawbah exposed them completely and has even been called, Al-Faadihah, the exposure. Said ibn Jubair reports, in Sahih
al-Bukhari, that he had asked Ibn Abbas about this Surah. He said that it was the one that exposed everyone, it kept coming, and coming until they thought that none of them would be left without having been mentioned in it.343

In Surah an-Nisa' Allah says:

They say: "We are obedient,", but when they leave you (Muhammad), a party of them spend all night planning something other than what you say. But Allah records their nightly (plots). So oppose them and put your trust in Allah, and Allah is Ever All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.344
As for the prohibition of attending their funerals or visiting their graves, Allah says in
Surah At-Tawbah:

And never pray for any of them (hypocrites) who dies, nor visit his grave. Surely they disbelieved
in Allah and His Messenger, and died while they were Faasiqun.345


Ibn Kathir said: "This is a general rule which applies to all whose hypocrisy is known, even though it was actually revealed on account of Abdullah ibn Ubay, the leader of the hypocrites, at
Madinah"346.

The hypocrites excuse for not participating in Jihad was not accepted and so their participation cannot again be permitted. Allah it says:

And if Allah brings you back to a group of them (the hypocrites), and they ask your permission to
go out (to fight), say: "Never shall you go out with me, nor fight an enemy with me; you agreed to
sit inactive on the first occasion, so sit with those who lag behind".347


And again in the same Surah, Allah says:

342 At-Tawbah: 73.
343 Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 8/629, Hadith no. 4882, "The Book of Tafsir", Tafsir Surah al-Hashr.
344 An-Nisa': 81.
345 At-Tawbah: 84.
346 Tafsir Ibn Kathir: Vol.4/132.
347 At-Tawbah: 83.
* Rijsun: That is, Najasun (impure). Impure because of their evil deeds.

They (the hypocrites) will present their excuses to you (Muslims), when you return to them. Say (O Muhammad): Present no excuses, we shall not believe you. Allah has already informed us of the news
concerning you. Allah and His Messenger will observe your deeds. In the end you will be brought back to the All- Knower of the Unseen and the Seen, then He will inform you of what you used to do. They will swear by Allah to you (Muslims) when you return to them, that you may turn away from
them. So turn away from them. Surely, they are Rijsun*, and Hell is their dwelling place, a recompense for that which they used to earn. They (the hypocrites) swear to you (Muslims) that you
may be pleased with them, but if you are pleased with them, certainly Allah is not pleased with the people who are Al-Faasiqun.348

As for asking Allah to forgive them, Allah says,


Whether you (Muhammad) ask forgiveness for them (hypocrites) or ask not forgiveness for them, yet even if you ask for their forgiveness seventy times, Allah will not forgive them; because they have
disbelieved in Allah and His Messenger and Allah guides not those who are Faasiqun.349


And again in the Surah Al-Munaafiqun, Allah says:


And when it is said to them: "Come, so that the Messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness from Allah for you", they turn aside their heads, and you can see them turning their faces away in pride. It does not matter, whether you (Muhammad) ask forgiveness for them (hypocrites) or ask not forgiveness for them, Allah will not forgive them. Verily, Allah guides not those who are
Faasiqun. 350


348 At-Tawbah: 94-96.
349 At-Tawbah: 80.
350 AI-Munaafiqun: 5-6.
http://tawheednyc.com/aqeedah/al walaa wal baraa/alwalawalbara2.pdf

I hope you re-examine your beliefs and your religion and why you subscribed. It is a package deal, there's no sepration of church and state, least of which when it comes to Daar Al-harb and Daar Al'Islam even if the Muslims are a minority in a corrupt majority, let alone who is actively seeking foreign forces to come all the while burying his head in the sand to the atrocities they commit.
If you want a further discussion I suggest you deal with the fact and not my person. Your feelings about the matter which are so manifestly seething in my CP should remain in the confines of your own mind.

best,

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Not only ridicule but will point out that what you're doing here puts you outside the fold of Islam

ya Allah Ya Allah YA Allah
You accuse me of being outside of Islam? You accuse me of being a hypocrite? and for what, because I have a diffrent opinion? And without even bothering to find out why I have this opinion?
I pray that Allah subhana wa ta'ala compensates me in the hereafter for your hatefull treatment. You have no proof, no qualifications to judge. I seek refuge against you with Allah.

Ibn al-Qayyim observes that: "the Prophet said that we should take them at face value, leave Allah to deal with what they hide, but confront them with knowledge and truth.

And isn't that the opposite of what you're doing? you're pretending to have knowledge of what you think I have hidden, and rather then confronting me in debate, first you try to ridicule me, and now you just plain insult me?

We have already seen how the most prominent features of their behaviour are their fondness for the disbelievers, their distaste for Islam and their abandonment of the Muslims. In fact, Allah made this clear in the revelation warning the Muslims to be careful and to keep away from them.

And how do you know what my motivations are? When I say I am happy with the intervention of France it is because my main concearn is the security of the muslim people living in Mali, and because I believe they are better of with the current government (despite it flaws that it might have) as opposed to those terrorist rebels. Not because of some twisted fondness I might have for the French.
When I say those extremist rebels are the worst of two evils, it's not because I have a distaste for islam, but because I love Islam, and I firmly believe those groups abuse our religion, and make it into something twisted and evil.

hope you re-examine your beliefs and your religion and why you subscribed.

I hope you re-examine your attitude. you have this way about you, that when somebody disagrees with you even the slightest, you automatically assume they are wrong, misinformed, delusional or what not without even indulging the other in debate. You simply jump to conclusions time after time again. This selfrighteousness is very unhealthy and I suspect it might be fueled by pride, defenitly something that might be worth looking into. Because remember that even an atom of pride might prevent you from entering Jannah.

It is a package deal, there's no sepration of church and state,

I never proposed that there should be. Don't put words in my mouth. My issue is not with them wanting a shariah state. My issue is with their interpretation of what a shariah state actually means, and how to accomplish that.

least of which when it comes to Daar Al-harb and Daar Al'Islam even if the Muslims are a minority in a corrupt majority, let alone who is actively seeking foreign forces to come all the while burying his head in the sand to the atrocities they commit.

Again, I repeat, it was never my intention to glorify the other side. I am well aware of the flaws of the others as well. My argument was that one is the lesser evil as opposed to the other.

If you want a further discussion I suggest you deal with the fact and not my person.

I must say I find that remark very hypocritical of you. If you would be so kind to scroll upwards, you would clearly see you were the one making this personal. you were the one starting to first ridicule my opinion, and then even insult me. And now you're calling me out on making this a personal issue? The nerve.....

 

[جوري]

ya Allah Ya Allah YA Allah

Certainly the French have a hidden agenda for intervening in Mali

all things considered, I consider the intervention a good thing.

I was glad to hear France decided to intervene because in the long term they might actually have a chance of eventually finding stability and safety

France will surely loot allot of their natural wealth.

I was living over there and I had to choose between getting financially raped by France, Or getting terrorised by some rebels who claim to be enforcing Shariah, my choice would quickly be made.

Oh so killing people because they have commited a small sin (in your interpretation of fiqh) is self defence

I would prefer living in a secular country where I'm safe

, those extremist rebels are defenitly the bad guy

I mean need I say more?

my main concearn is the security of the muslim people living in Mali

Indeed it is better to be a head on a stick paraded by a frenchman!

When I say those extremist rebels are the worst of two evils, it's not because I have a distaste for islam, but because I love Islam, and I firmly believe those groups abuse our religion, and make it into something twisted and evil.

Your beliefs have no basis in reality!

I hope you re-examine your attitude. you have this way about you, that when somebody disagrees with you even the slightest, you automatically assume they are wrong, misinformed, delusional or what not without even indulging the other in debate

I have done nothing of the matter and I welcome you to quote my posts the same way I have done yours and show me where I have accused you of any of that.. in fact let me share what you've written on my CP and you be the judge of who here is projecting:

• 01-24-2013 05:05 PM
  Abdul Fattah
  
  Thread: what the rabid French...
  you're right about one thing, you have no clue...

I never proposed that there should be. Don't put words in my mouth. My issue is not with them wanting a shariah state. My issue is with their interpretation of what a shariah state actually means, and how to accomplish that.

What is your interpretation of sharia and how is theirs inaccurate?

Again, I repeat, it was never my intention to glorify the other side. I am well aware of the flaws of the others as well. My argument was that one is the lesser evil as opposed to the other.

I'll leave your quotes above for keen discerning eyes to judge your intentions!

I must say I find that remark very hypocritical of you. If you would be so kind to scroll upwards, you would clearly see you were the one making this personal. you were the one starting to first ridicule my opinion, and then even insult me. And now you're calling me out on making this a personal issue? The nerve.....

I have scrolled and read.. I am at a loss really.. I haven't even taken out the big guns as you can see it doesn't take me more than 3 minutes to form a reply.. I can't possibly make it personal and invest emotionally having spent a few seconds scanning what you write here.. It really isn't that deep or thought out for me to mull over it or invest emotionally in it.

best,

 

[islamica]

France admits Algerian colonisation 'brutal'

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-2...brutal/4439360

 

[جوري]

France admits Algerian colonisation 'brutal'

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-2...brutal/4439360

We were brutal then but now we're peace loving enforcers of justice who have no desire to loot and kill Muslims whatsoever..
A person is really blind if they haven't a clue how they've divided us apart and eating us up, whether Russia who by the way is ecstatic about all of this given their own demise in Afghanistan, the U.S or Europe.. surely they'll come after us under a thousand Raya.. the prophet :saws: wasn't warning us for idle play.

 

[islamica]

One has to wonder when has any european meddling in other countries, be it colonizatins, invasion, occupation, or "liberation", ever done good for the locals? They had a 100 year war killing their own kind, what makes people think they will bring anything other than death and misery to their lands? The secular ignorant that praise them should be kicked out of Muslim lands to go enjoy their secular life among their kind.

 

[sister herb]

France admits Algerian colonisation 'brutal'

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-2...brutal/4439360

Salam alaykum

A little late from them maybe... Maybe they also can see that attack to Mali is brutal too. Victims there are mostly innocents, like in the Algeria over 50 years ago to the year 1962.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

I mean need I say more?

YEs of course, you think there is any sign of hypocracy in those quotes? I stand by every single one of them! And I don't think a single one of them shows in any way that I am a hypocrite. So if you wan tto insist on that issue, yes, you'll need to say more. Simply repeating my words is not an argument. Especially not when taken out of context.

Indeed it is better to be a head on a stick paraded by a frenchman!

I never said that being paraded with your head on a stick is better. Do not put words in my mouth. And if you want to make a mockery of my opinion, then at least stop pretending to take the moral highground. First of all I think most of those guys from back in algeria are already retired, so I doubt they would be going for an encore in Mali. Secondly given the evolution in war-correspondance, I don't think they will be able to get way with the same atrocety again given that the whole world is watching with eager eyes. Thirdly, the rebels have commited murders as well. So yeah, thinking of the well-being and safety of the population of Mali I think the French are the lesser evil.

Your beliefs have no basis in realty

That is of course your personal opinion. And while you are certainly entitled to have your own opinion, it is absurd to condemn me of being a hypocrite because I have a diffrent one! there are actuually plenty scholars who will tell you that Fiqh is a very complex matter. And there are tons of proofs that show clearly that the behaviour of those extremists is not as Islam prescribes and is, like I said a twisted perversion of religion. I have even already mentioned a few of those, but I guess you were to busy with accusing me of being a hypocrite to notice them.

I hope you re-examine your attitude. you have this way about you, that when somebody disagrees with you even the slightest, you automatically assume they are wrong, misinformed, delusional or what not without even indulging the other in debate

I have done nothing of the matter and I welcome you to quote my posts the same way I have done yours and show me where I have accused you of any of that

You apperently haven't read my comment. I did not say that you accuse people outright of those things. What I said was that you have this way about you, where said accusation is strongly implied but not actually voiced. Like you would say things like:

One deals with the topic of having her brother's heads chopped off and paraded around by demanding the topic be in English and the other by deflecting all together to make Muslims who are under attack by the same colonialists somehow the bad guy and not only that but is actually happy foreign forces are intervening in a sovereign nation and given a carte blanche to do so.. Sob7an Allah will wonders ever cease? .. how exactly in their dictionary does this make sense? I have no clue, but this takes it to a level far beneath nativity!
It's not a direct accusation, you make sure to take the sneaky way, making it harder for people to confront you on it. You condemn a post, and find it necesairy to voice that clearly, yet you don't confront the poster directly. It's like you wanna have it both ways. you want to put somebody down for disagreeing with you. But rather then actually replying to the post, which would be bothersome, you try and bully the pesron away like that.

I have done nothing of the matter and I welcome you to quote my posts the same way I have done yours and show me where I have accused you of any of that.. in fact let me share what you've written on my CP and you be the judge of who here is projecting:

Yes I will not deny I made that comment. Perhaps not the best way to respond, I'lll admit that. I was angry with you because of your reply and needed to vent that. But, come to think about it, didn't you reply that kindness? So aren't you now again accusing me of something you yourself are guilty of as well? Not to mention that the reason I was angry in the first place was for you making a mockery of my opinion. So yeah, who's the hypocrite now?

What is your interpretation of sharia and how is theirs inaccurate?

I'm glad you finally ask, after already having condemned me of being a hypocrite. Well Like I was replying to some of the other posters, I do believe in Shariah Law, but it has due proces, a judge, a trial and what not, there are requirements that need be met and so on. Secondly, not every sin is a matter that should be enforced by the state. Matters in which there are diffrences in opinon should clearly never be forced upon anyone. And even some of the matters on which everybody agrees on, are not things which the goverment should enforce but are things which is a personal choice between an individual and Allah. Then other things need to be enforced, but with the right method and a fitting punishment. Why theirs is wrong? Well how about this for starters: http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/mali-s-worst-human-rights-situation-50-years-2012-05-15

I'll leave your quotes above for keen discerning eyes to judge your intentions!

I stil lstand by every single one of those quotes, and I still fail to see what's hypocritical about them.

I have scrolled and read.. I am at a loss really.. I haven't even taken out the big guns as you can see it doesn't take me more than 3 minutes to form a reply.. I can't possibly make it personal and invest emotionally having spent a few seconds scanning what you write here.. It really isn't that deep or thought out for me to mull over it or invest emotionally in it.

first of all, I didn't say you were emotionally invested. Instead I said you were the one making it personal. You were the one making ad hominim arguments, attacking me personal. And I can believe you when you say you were not emotionally invested in said attacks, but that doesn't change the hypocrisy of you telling me not to make it personal.
Second, Perhaps that's the problem in the first place? You just scan ahead, pick a few random quotes, take just a few minutes to reply. Maybe you should put some more thought in it? Just an idea...