Where did this come from???

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IAmZamzam

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Daniel and Jeremiah are unique in that they're hadith-centric prophets.

The problem is, I can't find any of these ahadith anywhere. But I keep find these references anyway—for example this one from Ibn Kathir:

Ibn Abi Al-Dunya narrated the following, based on a chain of citations. Nabuchadnezzar captured
the two lions and threw them into a pit. He then brought Daniel and threw him at them; yet they did not pounce at him; rather, he remained as Allah wished. When then he desired food and drink, Allah revealed to Jeremiah, who was in Sham (Palestine/Syria): "Prepare food and drink for Daniel." He said: "O Lord I am in Jerusalem while Daniel is in Babylon (Iraq)." Allah revealed to him: "Do what I have commanded you to do, and I shall send you one who will carry you and what you have prepared." Jeremiah did so and Allah sent him something that would carry him until he arrived at the brink of the pit. Then Daniel asked: "Who is this?" He answered: "I am Jeremiah." He asked: "What brought you?" He answered: "Your Lord sent me to you." He said: "And so my Lord has remembered me?" He said: "Yes." Daniel said: "Praise be to Allah Who never forgets those who appeal to Him! And Praise be to Him Who compensates good with good, rewards patience with safety, dispels harm after distress, assures us when we are overwhelmed, and is our hope when skill fails us.

But when I try to find the exact source the only references I get are to books I don’t own. What collection did the above paragraph come out of? What exact “chain of citations” brought it to us? I’ve been to several pages and nobody’s said. The narration seems to have just emerged from a vacuum somehow. At searchtruth.com I find that nothing comes up when I look for “daniel” in either Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu-Dawud or Malik’s Muwatta. How trustworthy, I wonder, is the status of these people’s prophethood? Then again the name Zul-Qarnain does pop up in The Qur’an so was Daniel a prophet? And where do all these ahadith about him and Jeremiah come from? Does anyone here know?
 
Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

They are not taken from hadiths but they are narrations from Ibn Kathir. I was watching 'Stories of the Prophets' by Mufti Ismail Ibn Musa Menk of Zimabawe and he said that Muslims can do three things with the previous scriptures.

1) We can borrow from the Bible if it is corraborated in the Holy Qur'an.

2) We can reject parts that are not in line with Islam

3) We can neither confirm them or deny them meaning we can just read it and leave it at that.

The above seems to be just a work by Ibn Kathir, hence the reason that is not in any hadith of the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam).
 
A lot of people have referred to these things using the word "hadith". The phrase "Ibn Abi Al-Dunya narrated the following, based on a chain of citations" sounds like the opening to a hadith as well. The problem is, I don’t know how to check it. Just one example of the sort of thing I've been telling you about would be this excerpt from the Wikipedia page “Daniel in Islam:

Although he is not mentioned in the Qur’an, there are a few Hadith and Muslim records which bear his name and which refer to his time spent in the den of the lions.

The note here leads to the following citation: “Tabari, Volume I: “Prophets and Patriarchs”, 647, 652-654”. I can hardly look into that.

But The Qur’an does refer to the two-horned ram. One way or another I can’t see how Daniel could possibly not be a prophet. Even if he isn’t in the scripture personally how could the reference itself be in it if he isn't one?
 
IAmZamzam said:
Although he is not mentioned in the Qur’an, there are a few Hadith and Muslim records which bear his name and which refer to his time spent in the den of the lions.
Click to expand...

You have to remember that Allah Subhana Wa Ta'als did not list all of His Prophets in the Holy Qur'an. Similarly, some Prophets were mentioned in the Holy Qur'an but not in the Bible such as Hud, Salih etc (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them).

Sahih International

And [We sent] messengersabout whom We have related [their stories] to you before and messengers aboutwhom We have not related to you. And Allah spoke to Moses with [direct] speech.4:164
 
Ibn kathir is quoting from works already available to him. The reason you can't find it in the hadiths is because it's not there.


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Military . mention of a soldier or a unit in orders, usually forgallantry: Presidential citation.
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any award or commendation, as for outstanding service, hardwork, or devotion to duty, especially a formal letter or statement recounting aperson's achievements. Synonyms: official praise; award; honor,laurel, reward, kudos.
3.
a summons, especially to appear in court.
4.
a document containing such a summons.
5.
the act of citing or quoting a reference to an authorityor a precedent.

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Listen, try to tone down the snarkiness just a bit, would you? I wasn't referring to Ibn Kathir in particular. I meant the source for the narration, for the tradition. Where he got it, along with anyone else. I'm still not certain this story was never a hadith. Too many people have referred to it that way. Could the whole thing have come from just that one guy?? Does anyone here have a copy of Kathir they could check?

I just want to know how to check the authenticity of the tale, is all. I think it's important for a Muslim to understand who's a prophet and who isn't. I want to be able to know whether to bless the name of Jeremiah when I say it, don't you?
 
IAmZamzam said:
Well, I'd still like that source, if anybody knows it.
Click to expand...

I don't think you'll get the exact source, to be honest. At least not from the internet or even most on the internet. You should ask someone who would be familiar with Ibn Abi Al-Dunya because he was the one who quoted this tradition, and Ibn Kathir quoted from him. From the little amount of information I have seen on the internet, he is known as a Traditionalist who wrote about "simplicity of life and morals". That is key, since that seems to be what is mentioned in this story about Daniel (as).

Now, he is said to have written over 100 books, and my guess is that none of them are translated into English given that you haven't heard of him. Neither have I until now since I only researched him over my interest in your interest. The only issue now is whether or not you know Arabic, since this is the language you would need to know. I don't know it, so I can't help you there.

So this Tradition has a source, since I do not think Ibn Kathir would have just made up a story about a Prophet of God. I think Ibn Kathir, like any human, could have made some errors in his writings. But, I do not think he would make anything up. At the very most he might have quoted information which was not correct. This is just speculation from me though. I am not accusing him of lying at all.

Either way, I think you should try to ask someone who is knowledgeable on Traditions specifically and who really knows their stuff to tell you which book this Tradition comes from, or at least if they know it or not. I have not seen one website quote a source for it, just like you have said above. The only thing anyone can possibly know and trust about it is that Ibn Kathir quoted it. He did not make it up or materialize it out of thin air. Considering he is a very well-respected scholar, I think you can trust him and leave it at that. The only matter left is to research a bit more on Ibn Abi Al-Dunya and what kind of a scholar he was. Find out how he collected his Ahadith and his methodology. If you trust him, then I would trust this quotation as well.

As for Daniel (as) being a Prophet or not, that could be speculated. However, if one reads the Bible they see that he was a man who had many visions and was called a Prophet before. He is considered to have been a Prophet by Ibn Kathir's standards. i honestly think that is enough to judge that. I don't know if you're a scholar or not, but I doubt it since you are asking about this Tradition on a forum. I highly doubt any scholar would do that - at least I wouldn't if I was one.

But if you doubt Ibn Kathir's trustworthiness, then you have to accept the fact that not just one scholar quoted Ibn Abi Al-Dunya, but in fact even Hazrat Imam Ibn Qayyim Al-Jawziyya (ra) also quoted Ibn Abi Al-Dunya as well. I have deep admiration and respect for Hazrat Imam Ibn Qayyim (ra). He is very well-known and a reliable authority in Islam. So I would not worry about what not to accept here. You just have to look at the big picture.

Again, as for the actual book, the source itself...I don't know. But you definitely won't find the answer on this forum unless someone who is really skilled in their knowledge of Traditions shows up, reads your post, and recognizes which book he read this passage from and tells you it. The likelihood of that is very low.
 
Well, like I said, we know about Daniel: one of his prophecies gets referenced in the name of Dhul-Qarnain. The vision of the two-horned ram. So he has to be a prophet. I was really just wondering about Jeremiah. But if it's Ibn Abi Al-Dunya I need to look into then I guess I'll just have to see if I can find some sort of English information somewhere. The idea is a little strange that nobody easily reachable online has any information on where any ahadith quoted by this guy can be found, and yet he doesn't seem to be a fraud. I wonder why that could be. Actually I just had a better idea. Perhaps they could help me at the main branch of the library? Maybe there's a book they could order me or something. I'm really grasping at straws here. Maybe I could try to find and read Ibn Kathir myself. I wonder if he makes the chains of narration any clearer somewhere in the endnotes.
 
IAmZamzam said:
Listen, try to tone down the snarkiness just a bit, would you? I wasn't referring to Ibn Kathir in particular. I meant the source for the narration, for the tradition. Where he got it, along with anyone else. I'm still not certain this story was never a hadith. Too many people have referred to it that way. Could the whole thing have come from just that one guy?? Does anyone here have a copy of Kathir they could check?

I just want to know how to check the authenticity of the tale, is all. I think it's important for a Muslim to understand who's a prophet and who isn't. I want to be able to know whether to bless the name of Jeremiah when I say it, don't you?
Click to expand...

Look John are you hard of hearing? I've already told you that Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala tells us in the Holy Qur'an that not all of His Prophets are mentioned. The reason? It seems quiet obvious. The majority of Prophets were sent to the Children of Israel and to them only. So mentioning them again to us is really pointless if they're stories are not relevent to us.

With regard to Daniel and the 'two horned ram' if Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala wanted us to know all about that then surely He would have dedicated a whole chapter to Dhul Qarnayn. So we have to go by what we are given by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala.

Sahih International

And We have already sent messengers before you. Among them are those [whose stories] We have related to you, and among them are those [whose stories] We have not related to you. And it was not for any messenger to bring a sign [or verse] except by permission of Allah . So when the command of Allah comes, it will be concluded in truth, and the falsifiers will thereupon lose [all]. 40:78
 
Abu Loren said:
and the 'two horned ram'
Click to expand...
Actually 'zhu alqarnyen' doesn't necessarily denote two horned. That's the problem with some converts who theorize and have no understanding of linguistics or etymology especially of the Quran. Qarn also means century so zhul elqarnyn could very well mean one that has witnessed two different periods of time.
People who follow naught but dhann:

Al-An'am (The Cattle) [6:116] [RECITE]

Wain tutiAA akthara man fee alardi yudillooka AAan sabeeli Allahi in yattabiAAoona illa alththanna wain hum illa yakhrusoona​
 
شَادِنُ;1571588 said:
That's the problem with some converts who theorize and have no understanding of linguistics or etymology especially of the Quran.
Click to expand...

I didn't know John was a revert.
 
Is all of this really called for? I guess that'll teach me better than to give someone I've blocked a second chance and click "view post" out of curiosity. (Don't bother replying, sister, I'm not going to do it again.) Just my luck the only two people to talk to me so far have to be the two most abusive people on the board. I ask a perfectly normal and innocent question and expect anyone to behave like rational adults about it and just look.
 
Abu Loren said:
I didn't know John was a revert.
Click to expand...
Who knows what John is? I stopped looking into it with much of the lot here. I just work with the information written and thence draw my conclusions.

:w:
 
IAmZamzam said:
Is all of this really called for? I guess that'll teach me better than to give someone I've blocked a second chance and click "view post" out of curiosity. (Don't bother replying, sister, I'm not going to do it again.) Just my luck the only two people to talk to me so far have to be the two most abusive people on the board. I ask a perfectly normal and innocent question and expect anyone to behave like rational adults about it and just look.
Click to expand...

The answer to your above question which no one was giving to you is to look for Ibn Kathir's work called, "Stories of the Prophets". There is a whole chapter on Prophet Daniel (as) and the story which this post is on is from that book. The question here is tracing the hadith to the actual source from Ibn Abi Al-Dunya, who was a Traditionalist himself.
 
I was actually just thinking of getting the book myself, if it's easy to do and not too expensive.
 
Ahmad H said:
"Stories of the Prophets"
Click to expand...
Many of the stories of the prophets we have are called 'Isra'elyaat' they came from banu Israel who converted to Islam - we neither believe them nor do we disbelieve them.

& :Allah::swt: knows best,

:w:
 

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