Long time Catholic in love with a Muslim

[Amat Allah]

I do indeed believe there is only one God

I am happy that you do and that's the first part of the testimony (I bear witness that there is no god worthy to be worshipped but Allah)

As Muslims are afraid to as theological questions for fear of being criticized harshly

No, it is not that but we already knew Allah through His Names and Attributes He taught us in His Book and through His prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and that's all we need to know cause with asking so many Questions which their answers are only with Allah then satan may drag us to disbelieve...we do keep our limits to not fall in the web of satan's whispers, we are not to ask about the unseen and the not known but by Allah cause it is a waste of the time and a dangerous path to take having a bad ending for sure.

It was narrated that Abu Hurayrah said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The Shaytaan comes to some of you and says, ‘Who created such and such? Who created such and such?’ – until he says, ‘Who created your Lord?’ If that happens, then let him seek refuge with Allaah and stop thinking about that.”

It was narrated that Abu Hurayrah said: Some of the companions of the Prophet (S) came and asked him: We find in ourselves something that is too awful for any of us to speak of it. He said: “Do you really find that?” They said: Yes. He said: “That is clear faith.” Narrated by Muslim (132). Al-Nawawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: What this means is: the fact that you think of this whispers as something terrible is a clear sign of faith, for if you dare not utter it and you are so afraid of it and of speaking of it, let alone believing it, this is the sign of one who has achieved perfect faith and who is free of doubt .

we the slaves are to focus on remembrance (dhikr) of the Most Merciful, studying His verses and what it says in His Book of His most beautiful names and sublime attributes, and acknowledging His greatness, majesty, beauty and perfection that are mentioned in His Book and in the Sunnah of His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

as he made us in His image

We don't beileve in this cause God told us not about that and also we believe that God as He taught us:

"There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer. (11)" Surat Ash-Shura

Then nothing like Him and we don't know how He Is The Exalted but we are promised to see Him AlMight in Paradise, May Allah ease our way to it and bless us with this greatest pleasure Ameeeen

I understand the importance and avoidance to idols, but thats not idol worship

Yes, but still not the religion of Islam ...

One of the basic principles of belief in Islam, something which is obviously a basic principle and on which all the Muslims are agreed (ijmaa’) is that there is no true religion on the face of the earth apart from Islam. It is the final religion which abrogates all religions and laws that came before it There is no religion on earth according to which Allaah is to be worshipped apart from Islam. Allaah says (interpretation of the meanings):

“This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islâm as your religion” [al-Maa’idah 5:3]

“And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:85].

After the coming of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), Islam means what he brought, not any other religion.

at the end my respected brother; if getting any harsh replies from others then this is not because they are bad or our religion encourages us tbe be but we are human and when you see the thing or the one you love the most insulted you right away get offended and respond with anger...still our Lord taught us to seek rufuge with Him from satan to not be angry and to deal with others with kindness and wisdom...May Allah guide us all and keep us guided and firm on His straight path Ameeeen

May Allah make happiness the title of every single moment of your precious life my respected and noble brother Ameeeen

Humbly, your sister:

Amat Allah.

 

[Alpha Dude]

Hi Timothy,

You've posted a series of statements but haven't asked a question so not sure what it is you are seeking here, in terms of guidance. However:

I know the rules about that muslim men vs. muslim women, which i understand is one of those cultural Rules that give rights to men but not to women.

It's not cultural. This is a rule that is part of Islam, the religion. The Muslim sister, if she is reciprocating your feelings and your thoughts on the matter would be committing a major, major sin in Islam.

That's the Islamic position on the matter. She can do as she pleases and so can you but there is no way that she can marry you and still consider herself a good Muslim. Such a marriage/union would not be recognised and she would be committing fornication.

 

[Amat Allah]

Women can surpass men in their reason, religious commitment and wisdom; I know that women are smart and away better than men in different fields and the same for men of course and that does not contradict the fact of us being more emotional than men and yes, we are. And judging things with our hearts mean not that we are less intelligent but it is a moment of weakness may take us out of logic sometimes and make us slip. That may happen also for men but it happens often with women for the gentle nature they have...Thanks Lord.

 

[piXie]

I do love this woman, yet she says she cannot marry me unless I revert

What prevents you brother?

 

[YusufNoor]

bismiallah ar rahman ar raheem,

is this the "Art Linkletter" IslamicBoard? perhaps a dating site?

subhanAllah!

Brother Timothy:

if you wish to start a thread on why you feel that Catholicism is monotheism, you could do that in the comparative religion section. anyone who wanted to join in on that discussion could do so. for our purposes hear, let me quote from al Fatihah, the very 1st surah in the Qur'an"

Iyyaka Na'budu wa Iyyaka Nesta'eem

translation:

You Alone we worship and You Alone we seek guidance

the "You Alone" is refrenced in the line "Alhamdulillahi Raabil alamin"

translation:

ALL true and heartfelt thanks and praises are due to Allah (the One True God and THE ONLY ONE worthy of worship [who is] The Creator, Sustainer, Nuturer, Healer (etc) of all that exists.

prayer is a form of worship, thus we ONLY pray to Allah, the One True God and THE ONLY ONE worthy of worship. thus, to pray to ANYONE or ANYTHING else is shirk [which roughly means polytheism]

we, as Muslims, have no need to refer to any of the Ecumenical councils in Christian history. it is unnecessary. we only need to learn about Islam. some of us, contrary to what the good sister may think, are well versed in some parts of Christianity. i, myself, was born, raised and confirmed as a Catholic in the 60's and early 70's.

you ""think/imagine" that you only believe in 1 God. in your Bible, in the Gospel that is attributed to [a/some] John, you clearly have 2 gods. it took centuries for the "holy spirit" to become god. let us attempt to clarify your beliefs for you:

is "the father god", God in your opinion? [we'll ignore that fact, for now that "deis pater" is an ancient Indo/European form of the father god, which became Jupiter in the Greek language]

is Jesus god? [and you may "cap" whichever words you prefer, i don't have the same desire]

is the holy spirit god?

is Mary the mother of god?

was "the logos" god or not?

was "the logos" always god?

a few other points:

do you pray to Jesus?

do you pray to Mary?

do you pray to any "Catholic saints?"

finally, if you want to give me dispensation, get me dispensation from my taxes and i will listen attentively!

peace

 

[MustafaMc]

We believe in one God. You should re-read the neceed creed again. First line say, we believe in one God.

Yes, and if you would stop at, "We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible." then I would fully agree that you believe in One God; however, this statement of unity is immediately negated with, "And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end". There are 20 words allocated to the Father and 128 to Jesus which clearly reflects the Christian focus on Jesus in their worship. There is no Muslim that can disagree with the essence of the statement in blue except for the use of the word 'father' which implies having offspring. Likewise, there is no Muslim who will accept the statement in red as they see it as ascribing partners (a human being, Jesus) with Allah (glorified and exalted is He above this). The portions in bold and underlined are particularly noteworthy.

There is an ayat (verse) of the Qur'an that is most often used to allegorically describe Allah, <Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth. The similitude of His light is as a niche wherein is a lamp. The lamp is in a glass. The glass is as it were a shining star. (This lamp is) kindled from a blessed tree, an olive neither of the East nor of the West, whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself) though no fire touched it. Light upon light. Allah guides unto His light whom He will. And Allah speaks to mankind in allegories, for Allah is Knower of all things.> We know that Allah is above comparison to his creation, including Jesus, and words used to describe Allah should not be used to describe anything else.

 

[Timothy]

What prevents you brother?

What prevents me is what seems like 'form over function' is the systemic denial of my Abrahamic tradition. There are things that Jesus struggled with over the very legalistic religious people who were self righteous and had no regard for people, only law. "Let those who were without sin cast the first stone." If I say, I believe in one God, why does that offen so many Muslims? Just because I don't quote the same verses they do? Freedom of thought doesn't seem to be encouraged.

 

[MustafaMc]

If I say, I believe in one God, why does that offen so many Muslims? Just because I don't quote the same verses they do? Freedom of thought doesn't seem to be encouraged.

It is because what you certainly must believe as a Christian, but refuse to admit. You of course have freedom of thought but Christian belief regarding Jesus is directly contrary to the Qur'an and the very essence of Islam. You are free to think and believe as you do, but you are not free to be duplicitous in insisting you believe in One God alone without any father, mother, son, daughter or anything comparable to when you obviously do not as I illustrated above with the 128 words of the Nicene Creed ascribed to the man, Jesus.

 

[IAmZamzam]

Timothy, while I am the first to admit that, “Let us make man in our own image,” is open to any number of interpretations, you should also admit that in a Pentateuch in which the Deity is constantly appearing in person in a localized and humanoid form, and acting extremely human, it’s kind of hard for any outsider not to get the impression that a literal interpretation of the phrase is not at least a theoretical possibility. Remember that we believe this text has been corrupted.

“Muslims are afraid to as theological questions for fear of being criticized harshly.” I’m sorry, what exactly is it you think I’m afraid of asking?

I don’t know how this all became about The Trinity and all that while I was asleep but as long as we’re on the subject I’ve already got that covered.

 

[Naeema]

YAY! This got moved to comparative religion! For consistency, I'm going to use English names throughout this posting. There's been a lot going on and I'm going to jump on just a few pieces. My apologies if I got something wrong. It's been 15 years since I left University (and the convent) and I've only studied Islam in detail for about 18 months. I'm pulling on a lot of old coursework from memory.

What prevents me is what seems like 'form over function' is the systemic denial of my Abrahamic tradition. There are things that Jesus struggled with over the very legalistic religious people who were self righteous and had no regard for people, only law. "Let those who were without sin cast the first stone." If I say, I believe in one God, why does that offen so many Muslims? Just because I don't quote the same verses they do? Freedom of thought doesn't seem to be encouraged.

I have to write my revert story still, but for now I'll toss this out: I don't feel like embracing Islam caused me to turn my back on the Abrahamic wisdom and stories at all. If anything, I feel like I finally wholly understand and embrace the foundations of my childhood faith. For someone "of the book" exploring Islam, I think that the lives of the Prophets can be extremely interesting. You have heard many of the stories before, like the story of Adam (AS) and the story of Moses (AS). Just as the stories of the Prophets (AS) are slightly different from the Torah to the Bible, so are they different again in the Quran. For example, Surah Maryam contains the story of the birth of the Jesus (AS) from ayat 19-34.

With regard to the whole Trinitarian and Saints issue:
It may have been a while since you got hit with this, but remember that lots of people think Catholics, as Trinitarians, are not monotheist. The Communion of Saints (and especially their role as intercessors) is also rejected by lots of Christians. I know, Trinitarians do believe in one God. A Trinitarian God is, in the most simple words, a very complicated God (I believe ZamZam and I can agree on that part - nice blog post!). I also recall that the use of intercessors draws the following general logic: If you made it to Heaven, then you are wholly right with God; the prayers of the righteous are particularly effective; Ergo, use someone in Heaven to advocate on your behalf. As such, the use of Saints as intercessors isn't shirk or idolatry, it's more like working the system. I'm not saying you have to reject these pieces of doctrine and become Methodist or Muslim. I just wanted to add some explanatory information about these two more odd bits of Catholic doctrine.

The status of Christ:
Yes, the Nicene Creed is Christ-heavy. However, staking a whole religion on one creed (written and edited by men several times over the years) is just oversimplification - it's like saying all of Islam can be captured in the Shahada. Christians are very concerned with the life of Jesus (AS) and what he represents. However, from the Nicene Creed, the important distinction of Christ being begotten, not made, is consistent with the birth of Jesus (AS) to Maryam. In Islam, just as to Unitarian Christians, Jesus (AS) is a miracle of God and a prophet, but not part of the divine. This rejection of hypostasis doesn't negate his life and works. It puts him on par with other great prophets, like Adam, Abraham, David, and Moses (AS), each of whom was blessed by God with great gifts, miracles, and trials.

The true difference, to me, comes in when you think of the route to Heaven. In Christianity, extra Christum nulla salus (without Chist, no salvation). This is in contrast to the Torah and the Old Testament, in which different people were named by God to be a salvation to the people in the book. In Islam, we go back to the idea [reject the innovation?] that each person has the key to heaven in their own hands through faith and works (not sola fide). Surah Al Asr is one of my favorites. It translates (roughly) to:
By time; mankind is surely in loss; except for those who have believed, done righteous deeds, advised each other to truth, and advised each other to patience.

And Allah knows best.

 

[Insaanah]

Freedom of thought doesn't seem to be encouraged.

That's odd, because my first word was going to be think, and open your heart and mind. In the Qur'an you will find parables to get people thinking, statements to encourage us to ponder and reflect. It is the religion for the thinking person. Have you ever read the Qur'an?

Would you agree that the concept of God in Islam as listed below is clear, simple, logical, makes sense, and is actually befitting of the Majesty of God? It'll also give you an idea of where we're coming from:

• There is only One God. He alone should be worshipped. He is our Creator, Sustainer, Cherisher, and Lord. No being, no object, nothing other than Him, is worthy of prayer/worship.
• He does not beget, nor is He begotten. He has no sons, daughters, siblings, parents, cousins, or relatives of any sort.
• He is eternal and does not die.
• He does not depend on anyone/anything yet we all depend on Him. He is free of all want and need.
• There is nothing like Him. He is all Hearing, all Seeing, all Knowing, all Powerful, the Creator of the Universe.
• He did not and does not, dwell in human or animal bodies, nor are there any incarnations of Him. He is not mixed up in His creation in any way.
• He is not composed of persons, nor a trinity. There are no secondary, lesser, greater, equal, or multiple gods, no intermediaries, and no denying of God's existence either.
• There are no sharers or associates or parts whatsoever in His exclusive Divinity. Simply, He is One, in every sense.

Jesus (peace be upon him) is one of the greatest messengers of God, and the Messiah, born miraculously of the noble lady virgin Mary, peace be upon her. Jesus (peace be upon him) is one of the most noble men to ever walk the face of the earth, but not divine in any way.

Out of the above, which would you have a problem with, and why? If you can accept the above, but it's the issue of salvation or atonement of sins, that can be addressed.

Regarding God being in the form of a man, Allah says that He does not compare in any way to any part of His creation, or anything else (112:4). The minute you say He dwells in a man or is a man, that being cannot be God because there is nothing like Him and He is not mixed up in His creation in any way.

A god who lives as a baby, needs to be suckled and weaned, cries and is helpless, has to perform all bodily functions such as defaecating, being ill, in Islam all these things are incompatible with being God.

You may not have a problem with god emerging from the womb of a woman, crying, being helpless, having to defaecate, being killed, but it strikes me as being similar in some ways to the Hindu stories about god.

Even it's a belief you've been brought up with all your life, doesn't mean it's correct. It may be disturbing and uncomfortable to acknowledge that fact, but you owe it to yourself.

Christians believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God incarnate, as Hindus believe in human incarnations of god, (though they also believe in some animal incarnations too). Where I personally find Catholicism similar to Hinduism, is in the plethora of saints that one can pray to for various purposes. There are more than 10,000 Catholic saints that Catholics can pray to. Essentially, a human being like us decides that someone is righteous/pious, and when that person dies, designates the deceased a saint. This then gives people the license to pray to the deceased, even though the deceased does not even possess the capability to turn him/herself by 1 inch in his/her grave. This is no different than Hindus praying to their various deities. When you consider Catholicism along with Islam, you're essentially considering two opposites as far as the concept of God goes. Yet in Islam, we find we're following the true message of Christ (peace be upon him).

What you need to consider, and think about, and ponder over and reflect is which of those makes sense enough to be true and which is actually befitting of the Majesty of God.

 

[IAmZamzam]

Freedom of thought not encouraged?? He apparently hasn't read The Qur'an. Does he not know how many times it says things like, "Will they not stop and reflect on such-and-such?" and, "The signs are there, if you'll only think about them," and, "They don't really know that, they're only conjecturing." Not to mention, "There is no compulsion in religion: truth has as such become distinct from error."

 

[Futuwwa]

Freedom of thought not encouraged?? He apparently hasn't read The Qur'an. Does he not know how many times it says things like, "Will they not stop and reflect on such-and-such?" and, "The signs are there, if you'll only think about them," and, "They don't really know that, they're only conjecturing." Not to mention, "There is no compulsion in religion: truth has as such become distinct from error."

He concluded that freedom of thought was not encouraged because MustafaMc would not tolerate him coming to a different conclusion than his regarding tawheed and trinity. If we want our talk of freedom of thought be more than just talk, we should accept the whole package, including the fact that some people might actually conclude differently than we. And not presume that they are either dishonest or stupid.

No small number of times have I, in effect, been told that I'm allowed to think for myself, but not come to different conclusions than what (supposedly) the scholars agree on. That I'm allowed to ask questions but must accept the validity of any answers given. Well, I'm not going to conform simply because someone says so. Actually, I don't think I ever have ;D

 

[IAmZamzam]

No small number of times have I, in effect, been told that I'm allowed to think for myself, but not come to different conclusions than what (supposedly) the scholars agree on. That I'm allowed to ask questions but must accept the validity of any answers given. Well, I'm not going to conform simply because someone says so.

Oh I have been in that situation sooooooo many times. *high five* Honestly, if a majority of scholars agreed that the sky was brown, we'd be forced to redefine the color wheel, wouldn't we? But people must understand, that's universal. Human beings in general aren't allowed to disagree with the status quo, with tradition or with the intellectual majority, under any circumstances, ever--and if you ever do then you're either a ignorant greenhorn with no idea what's going on or a cocky little know-it-all for whom a little knowledge is a dangerous thing--take your pick. That's just the way of the world. Authoritarianism and the appeal to tradition is the enemy of all truth, liberty and reason. It's the biggest hurdle that every single prophet faced, time and again: "We follow the way our fathers did, now get out of town!"

Anyway nobody encourages freedom of thought more than I do so at the very least this guy should be careful how he phrases things. This is one of various reasons why writing manuals discourage passive voice constructions. They lead to sticky situations.

 

[Timothy]

Oh and I'm I'm love with a practicing Muslim woman. I know the rules about that muslim men vs. muslim women, which i understand is one of those cultural Rules that give rights to men but not to women.
U
both men and women have rights. men aren't protected from unbelieving women as women are so protected from unbelievers. a marriage with you could end up with the sister being forced to viloate her faith. if you love her and want to help protect her from the hellfire, become a Muslim. if not, leave the sister alone.

you most assuredly DO NOT believe in 1 God. as a Catholic, you are a trinitarian. whether you think that is 3 gods in 1, or 1 god in three, you still have 3. and prayer is worship, so you're "hail Mary's" add a 4th. if you truly want to be a monotheist, learn about Islam.

peace

My Muslim brother, I am indeed learning about Islam. But Since Allah created all of us, and we did not create Him, we all belong to Him, regardless of our origin. Therefore, if we love and believe, we are on the same team!! The devil wishes to destroy and separate us, and destroy our kinship, peace, and life. Lets not give into Satan lie and embrace the love Allah teaches us. Peace to you and you family.

 

[YusufNoor]

My Muslim brother, I am indeed learning about Islam. But Since Allah created all of us, and we did not create Him, we all belong to Him, regardless of our origin. Therefore, if we love and believe, we are on the same team!! The devil wishes to destroy and separate us, and destroy our kinship, peace, and life. Lets not give into Satan lie and embrace the love Allah teaches us. Peace to you and you family.

are you the OP? anyhow, my post is without emotion. i simply pointed out that 1)you have a misconception about nikkah; 2) if you don't revert, leave the sister alone 3) Catholics are not monotheists. i am a former Catholic. everything i posted is true and i have made the same comments to my mother, she wasn't upset. 4) i advised you to learn about Islam if you truly wanted to be a monotheist and 5) i wished you peace.


and yet you see shaytan and evil in there?

really?

any other splints in my eyes???

peace

 

[Abu Loren]

My Muslim brother, I am indeed learning about Islam. But Since Allah created all of us, and we did not create Him, we all belong to Him, regardless of our origin. Therefore, if we love and believe, we are on the same team!! The devil wishes to destroy and separate us, and destroy our kinship, peace, and life. Lets not give into Satan lie and embrace the love Allah teaches us. Peace to you and you family.

Dear Timothy

You still don't understand? It is forbidden for a Muslim women to fall in love or marry a non Muslim man. If she marries you as you are (a Catholic) then she is committing a great sin.

 

[Futuwwa]

are you the OP? anyhow, my post is without emotion.

I suppose that if I state, without emotion and in a neutral matter-of-factual way, that you are a mushrik, you will not take offense? ^o)

 

[YusufNoor]

I suppose that if I state, without emotion and in a neutral matter-of-factual way, that you are a mushrik, you will not take offense? ^o)

why should your opinion offend me? just because you state something that i disagree with? and calling a Muslim a disbeliever actually has the ramification of making that Muslim a disbeliever.

so in reality, you would be stating that it is you who disbelieves. that would bother me more than your opinion of me.

it is our obligation to deliver the message of Islamic monotheism, In Surah Yusuf, we hear Yusuf, as:

12:39 O [my] two companions of prison, are separate lords better or Allah , the One, the Prevailing?
12:40 You worship not besides Him except [mere] names you have named them, you and your fathers, for which Allah has sent down no authority. Legislation is not but for Allah . He has commanded that you worship not except Him. That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know.

Yusuf begins by discussing Tawheed. the OP claimed to be a monotheist, he isn't. the issue of Tawheed is more important that someone having feelings for a woman. i feel no obligation to "help him succeed" as if this is merely a dating site, but my obligation is to point out where he is in error in his statement.

dawah is stating the truth. it is odd that some Muslims are offended by the truth.

and Allahu Alam

ma salaama

 

[Futuwwa]

why should your opinion offend me? just because you state something that i disagree with? and calling a Muslim a disbeliever actually has the ramification of making that Muslim a disbeliever.

so in reality, you would be stating that it is you who disbelieves. that would bother me more than your opinion of me.

Well, at least you're consistent, I'd have to grant you that.

dawah is stating the truth. it is odd that some Muslims are offended by the truth.

Do you think stating the truth entitles you to be rude?