Yes, Atheists do Exist.

[Berries'forest]

That is an interesting point. So you are basically saying, "Would such a kid want to 'hang out' with other kids who believed in Santa Claus or would he feel they were too immature for him to relate to"?

I'm not sure if he'd hang out with them. I've seen some kids telling their friends that santa is a lie. The thing is the child rarely ever goes on a discovery voyage to inestigate why other kids still believe in santa. I'm not sure if atheist feel that they're too good for theists but iti'd be informing to know why they hold such an interest in religion if they view religious beliefs the same way they view santa claus and FSMs.

 

[Pygoscelis]

It also looks suspicious that it's so awfully rare to find a single one of these people who, despite their being so allegedly in a position of theoretical indifference (seeing as how they're talking about someone who isn't supposed real at all), is ever willing to admit to the possibility of a loving or beneficent Deity. Pretty much without exception you hear the same story every time, to the point of exhausted cliche: "The only kind of God I could even conceive of, let alone see myself considering for a moment, is a cruel and merciless one, and even that kind looks unlikely enough."

I would like to know who you are quoting here, because I have never said that, nor have I ever heard an atheist say that. I do think I know where you get it from though. A lot of atheists will look at the world and the problem of evil and euthyphro's dilemma and conclude that a benevolent, loving, all powerful, and all knowing God makes no logical sense to them. Many see tyrant gods or gods who treat us as play things (like the Greek Gods) as more coherent ideas given the world we live in. It doesn't mean the atheist thinking this believes in any such Gods. It is just an intellectual exercise, no different than they would do with other fictional characters.

 

[Pygoscelis]

I think atheists need to sit down and figure out how life started.

Science tries, but it is fallible and incomplete, and will likely always be so.

It isn't a bad thing to admit you don't know what you don't know. It doesn't mean you should make up answers, or call it "Magick" or call it "God did it".

 

[Pygoscelis]

You maybe think that you have a 'right' to feel confused as to why the majority of theists do infact and in very very real terms do get offended by every means the word can hold when they hear an atheist making parellels and comparisons of God to faeries and other fictional characters.That's because we take it personally and also we take it as either a fixed position of general dismissal or just plain disrespect.

Just faeries and FSM and UPI or all fictional characters? Isn't it offensive because the FSM and IPU were seemingly created to purposefully mock believers? Faeries are different in that regard, as are ghosts, space aliens, etc. If it is offensive simply because an analogy is being made between God and a fictional character, then there is really not much that can be done. Because one of the main points of making that anaogy in the first place is to show that we see your God as a fictional character. If our seeing your God that way is offensive, then there is really no way to dampen that.

One of the reasons which may lead us to think that atheists do actually in some way or another have a faith deep down inside is tht we can't find any possible reason as to why they claim that they are only interested in religion just to broaden their perspective of the world of theists. I have a question to ask you and really and this time answer me honestly. Ever since you found out that Santa Claus was a popular cultural lie that parents tell their children about before Christmas, and after you've fully understood how he can't possibly exist even if you wanted him to?. Did you spend one more second pondering and trying to discover why other kids still believe him to be true? I highly doubt that. Because simply you grew out of it. It was just a phase and you were more than convinced that one day other children will find out santa clas is not real.

Personally, I never believed Santa was real. I grew up thinking Santa was a fun character like the Easter Bunny or Leprechauns at the end of Rainbows with pots of Gold. It never dawned on me that other children may actually believe Santa really exists until I was much older. I felt the same way about God. I grew up in a Christian society and I remember going to church as a child and hearing stories about Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, Job and the whale, etc. They sounded no more real to me than other children's stories like Hanzel and Gretle, Jack and the Beanstock, or the Cat in the Hat.

I saw God and Jesus as something to take a bit more seriously, but I always say it as a cultural thing, something people pretend is real, not something they actually believe. I thought people went to church for comfort and community, and gave prayers for peace of mind in some sort of therepeutic sense, knowing the whole while that there is no actual God hearing them. I thought it was like writing something down on paper, like keeping a diary, etc. I was the opposite of theists who don't believe atheists exist. I was an atheist who didn't believe theists actually existed.

Only much later did I realize that people ACTUALLY do believe this stuff. And that some actually believe it LITERALLY. I did a double take when I realized that. I found it shocking and hard to believe, and absolutely fascinating.

Now, why do I find it more fascinating than young children who may actually believe in Santa? For a number of reasons. First, we are talking about fully developed, intelligent adults believing in God rather than young children still developing their minds and prone to fantasy. Second, religion permeates society at a much higher level. Missionaries don't go around pushing Santa. People don't go to war or kill each other over Santa belief. People don't form deep personal moral positions on things like abortion, contraception, homosexuality, etc based on Santa either. People don't base their entire lives, personal identities, circles of friends, etc around believing in Santa.

Also, Santa doesn't care if you believe in him, only that you are good. And Santa will not send you to hell and torture you forever if you do something he doesn't like. He'll just give you a lump of coal. So it isn't nearly as concerning as some people's visions of God are.

Especially that before a period of time it was fairly common that an atheist whom denounced his/her faith would refer to have been a former follower of any particular faith when they were younger but then suddenly lost their faith and now they switched arguements in which firmly saying 'No, despite the fact that some of us were brought up in religous house holds, we can't remember a time at which we ever actaully had any faith to begin with. We always lacked that faith in God other believers around us seemed to have'.

I personally was never a believer (though I still pretend to make my mom happy), but if you would like me to I can refer you to many atheists who were. I even know some who are former ministers of fundamentalist christian churches. I don't know many ex-muslims who are atheists personally but I do know of them.

Which also brings up the arguement that 'there are no atheists in foxholes' is what based the foundation that an atheist was a believer but lost his her faith because of their distrust in God or failure to observe patience. I know you didn't ask for such a lengthy reply but I thought if would give a broader perspective of why we actually aren't projecting but rather predicting.

"there are no atheists in foxholes" is the argument that atheists who fear for their lives will turn to God. This is of course not always true, but it does happen sometimes. I don't think it should surprise anyone that it happens. Desperate people will take desperate measures, including irrational measures, grasping at straws. It isn't just Gods that desperate people will turn to. They will also turn to psychics, mediums, spirit healing, and all sorts of other things they would otherwise have seen as irrational.

As for becoming an atheist because of distrusting God, that makes no sense to me. If you hate God or don't trust God or turn against God, you by necessity believe in God. I could picture somebody wanting to believe in God and losing patience waiting for some evidence that he exists and calling that "losing patience with God" I suppose.

 

[Abu Loren]

1,647 views
123 replies
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Way to go Mr. Atheist!

 

[AabiruSabeel]

I don't have time to read the whole thread but I still do not have any convincing evidence to believe in the existence of any atheists.

I live in a Muslim populated city and I haven't come across any atheist walking on the road here.

I simply do not have any scientifically verifiable evidence to believe in an atheist. Who knows who created this thread? I don't believe it was created by an atheist. I just know that it was created by a username Pygoscelis, whoever he/she is. Sure, he claims he is an atheist, but how can I verify his claim? I have not seen him persoanlly. I have never felt his presence. Then how can I say he exists?

The internet is full of lies and we daily see many unscientific rumors being posted around. I cannot trust anyone posting on the internet and claiming that he is an atheist. Let him give a factual proof of his existence.

He has neither sent any representative to the Islamic Board staff to prove his existence. Maybe there is an intelligent bot behind his username who is typing all these replies, who knows?

 

[Berries'forest]

Only much later did I realize that people ACTUALLY do believe this stuff. And that some actually believe it LITERALLY. I did a double take when I realized that. I found it shocking and hard to believe, and absolutely fascinating.
Now, why do I find it more fascinating than young children who may actually believe in Santa? For a number of reasons. First, we are talking about fully developed, intelligent adults believing in God rather than young children still developing their minds and prone to fantasy. Second, religion permeates society at a much higher level. Missionaries don't go around pushing Santa. People don't go to war or kill each other over Santa belief. People don't form deep personal moral positions on things like abortion, contraception, homosexuality, etc based on Santa either. People don't base their entire lives, personal identities, circles of friends, etc around believing in Santa.
Also, Santa belief is less alarming than God belief because Santa doesn't care if you believe in him, only that you are good. And Santa will not send you to hell and torture you forever if you do something he doesn't like. He'll just give you a lump of coal.[/quote]

Isn't that a good enough reason for atheists to stop making comparisons of God to fictional characters. We don't pretend to believe in religion and God our whole lives revlove around it. This is why many theists complain when that parallel is made. You said this is the way you view them but why not actually look at it from their perspective and not yours- it's real very real. The offence derives from both sides knowing they are fully 'intelligent' well at least we can say grown adults so when one side insists on downgrading the arguement to faeries and other fictional characters it would imply that they are ridiculing our logic. I mean there are much more plausible arguements that can be made without reffering to fictional characters and does render further discussion.

I personally was never a believer (though I still pretend to make my mom happy), but if you would like me to I can refer you to many atheists who were. I even know some who are former ministers of fundamentalist christian churches. I don't know many ex-muslims who are atheists personally but I do know of them.

Precisley, if it was that a non-issue in account then you still wouldn't have had to pretend to still be a christian infront of your to please her. Your next point indicates exactly why we do assume that they might be just 'deviant deniers' of God becauseof their background and we also inherently assume that they will even maybe unwillingly or unintentionally recognize a superior being especially when afflicted.

"there are no atheists in foxholes" is the argument that atheists who fear for their lives will turn to God. This is of course not always true, but it does happen sometimes. I don't think it should surprise anyone that it happens

Actually I think the arguement goes both ways. I think that in both cases they're still not atheists in the context of them not believing that God exists. An atheist in foxholes is one who denounces their faith because of confusion and being puzzled by what happened. They become atheists because they believe the world hs no order and most likely short after become nhlisits. The other atheists in fox holes is not really an atheist by which if we redefined the theistic term of God as in a divine idol; it's matter of perspective really. Also it's not that surprising given that we already predict for it to happen. Times of desperation are truly the critically defining moments of one's life. Especially that after the calamity has passed by and then the ex-atheist becomes an atheists again because they feel they don't need that anymore. If one is certain there can't possibly be a God then why do they delibaretly switch position back and forth.

It isn't just Gods that desperate people will turn to. They will also turn to psychics, mediums, spirit healing, and all sorts of other things they would otherwise have seen as irrational.

That certainly would make a more plausible arguement than FSMs and faeries. But it still not relevant. If some one had no faith in specifcally dieties and supernatural forces to begin with they shouldn't be troubled by requesting for other paranormal mediums since they paint them all with the same brush.

As for becoming an atheist because of distrusting God, that makes no sense to me. If you hate God or don't trust God or turn against God, you by necessity believe in God. I could picture somebody wanting to believe in God and losing patience waiting for some evidence that he exists and calling that "losing patience with God" I suppose.

Oh I didn't mean that. I meant the distrust that comes along with the skepticism of His will and commandments. Most of their questions go like:' if God was truly this then why did He do that?!' and similar ones. To be frank and honest I think even that is not what it really is to be. I think atheism has a big unresloved issue with that of authoriatianism I believ the main problem is that they don't 'reject' God but they can't or don't want to feel 'repressed' under a common regulating authority it deprives them of their 'freedom' to live their life and do what they want. This is why there's not only a counter arguemnt made fo every theistic apeal but also with it's morality issues associated with it as well. Though there might be some exceptions like your inclination toward the ban on usury transactions.

 

[IAmZamzam]

Even blocking someone isn't enough sometimes...

I will say this much, even though it's a bit off topic: the only reason people see the existence of psychic powers as "irrational" is because people are also, by and large, too irrational to allow the oodles and oodles and oodles and oodles of statistical proof for their existence to become honestly accepted public knowledge. Scientists are human beings, even collectively, and as prone to stodgy refusal to allow for radical-sounding paradigm shifts as anyone. Even though these abilities may well not involve anything supernatural. The website skepticalinvestigations.org has lots of articles detailing the matter with tons and tons of proof.

 

[Pygoscelis]

You said this is the way you view them but why not actually look at it from their perspective and not yours- it's real very real. The offence derives from both sides knowing they are fully 'intelligent' well at least we can say grown adults so when one side insists on downgrading the arguement to faeries and other fictional characters it would imply that they are ridiculing our logic.

I suspect a big part of the creation and use of the FSM and IPU is intentional satire and ridicule. When religious people behave badly and speak rudely to atheists, sometimes atheists want to mock them and speak rudely right back. I prefer not to, which is why I did not bring FSM or IPU into the conversation.

Faeries and ghosts are another matter. You may see them as imaginary creatures, but there are people today who believe strongly in ghosts, and there have been people in history who believed strongly in faeries. These concepts were not invented to mock religion. Neither was Russel's teapot or my numerology example (also something people believe in).

Precisley, if it was that a non-issue in account then you still wouldn't have had to pretend to still be a christian infront of your to please her.
Your next point indicates exactly why we do assume that they might be just 'deviant deniers' of God becauseof their background and we also inherently assume that they will even maybe unwillingly or unintentionally recognize a superior being especially when afflicted.

I'm not entirely clear on what you are saying here. You seem to be making multiple points and mixing them together?

Actually I think the arguement goes both ways. I think that in both cases they're still not atheists in the context of them not believing that God exists. An atheist in foxholes is one who denounces their faith because of confusion and being puzzled by what happened. They become atheists because they believe the world hs no order and most likely short after become nhlisits.

Oh ok I see what you mean. Yes, I think that happens sometimes. Expecting God to help you in troubled times and he doesn't, so you lose faith. Yes?

I don't think that happens very often, but I'd agree it probably does happen sometimes. Most atheists I know who used to be believers lost faith in a less dramatic fashion, slowly over time.

If one is certain there can't possibly be a God then why do they delibaretly switch position back and forth.

I don't know why they would do this. And I have to take your word for it that they do this, because I have yet to meet any who have told me that happened to them.

But it still not relevant. If some one had no faith in specifcally dieties and supernatural forces to begin with they shouldn't be troubled by requesting for other paranormal mediums since they paint them all with the same brush.

My point is that they turn to things they'd otherwise consider irrational, because they are desperate. They also may simply go into denial and say everything is ok when it is not.

Oh I didn't mean that. I meant the distrust that comes along with the skepticism of His will and commandments. Most of their questions go like:' if God was truly this then why did He do that?!' and similar ones. To be frank and honest I think even that is not what it really is to be. I think atheism has a big unresloved issue with that of authoriatianism I believ the main problem is that they don't 'reject' God but they can't or don't want to feel 'repressed' under a common regulating authority it deprives them of their 'freedom' to live their life and do what they want. This is why there's not only a counter arguemnt made fo every theistic apeal but also with it's morality issues associated with it as well. Though there might be some exceptions like your inclination toward the ban on usury transactions.

I see your point here, and I agree with you that most atheists I know are less authoritarian than most theists I know, but not always. I do know some very liberal hippy type religious people who are very anti-authoritarian and I know some military patriotic type atheists who are very authoritarian.

 

[Pygoscelis]

I was talking with a friend of mine about this today this is her theory on why it happens:

People want to believe that God is good and just. They are then told that he punishes infidels and sends them to hell and tortures them. They can see that it would be unjust, monstrous even, to punish and torture good people who just don't believe. So they need to believe that these people are either not good people or that they do not just not believe. They have to believe that these people knew God existed, knew what he wanted, and that they turned against him.

That makes a lot of sense to me.

Of course not all religious people believe in punishment and hell and brimstone afterlives for non-believers. It would be interesting to see if these religious people are more often the ones that recognize and accept that there are true non-believers.

 

[Berries'forest]

I'm not entirely clear on what you are saying here. You seem to be making multiple points and mixing them together?

If it seemed mixed up it's because you are connecting them together. You said you pretend to be a believer infront of your mom, right?. Well if the faith wasn't all that significant you wouldn't have had to pretend to be a believer, you'd just tell her that you're an atheist. You don't pretend to believe in faeries do you? no.So if the issue of God not existing is that clear to you why would you pretend to be a believer infront of her. Would you also pretend to believe in Santa Claus infront of your children so they don't get hurt?.

I don't know why they would do this. And I have to take your word for it that they do this, because I have yet to meet any who have told me that happened to them.

Yeah they do. Some of them can't stand firmly on what they claim. They believe then disbelieve then believe again then alter their beliefs with more atheistic ones, the ones around me do that all the time.

I do know some very liberal hippy type religious people who are very anti-authoritarian and I know some military patriotic type atheists who are very authoritarian.

I strongly disagree. You can't be religious and anti-authoritarian at the same time. I'm talking in religious context here, those people would be just liberal 'muslims' and most of the time the choose and pick which parts of religion suits their preferances.

 

[White Rose]

It isn't a bad thing to admit you don't know what you don't know. It doesn't mean you should make up answers, or call it "Magick" or call it "God did it".

I don't know but the more I delve deeper into science, the more I find the things too perfect to happen on their own.

 

[Berries'forest]

But your friend may actaully be incorrect. I don't think it ever comes in the terms of good and bad. If you're an atheist you'd be considered bad anyway regardless of what you actaully do. She really narrowed things in perspective. We barely ever care as to why an atheist doesn't believe God exists. She implies that we have to comfort our failure in figuring out why someone would be an atheist. We don't infact it's not like that at all. When we say atheists don't exist we mean it in as a whole in the sense that they're will be one day and it is probably judgement day when these atheist will believe regardless of wether they currently don't believe or not. Hey and why is that arguement used only for atheists anyway, we could just as likely ask but there are good jews, chritsians and bhudists...etc out there, are they also going to be punished by God? and we don't just deny their existance because we can't comprehend their fate.And wait a moment; does me believing that God punishing someone for not belieivng entail that they either have to be secret believers or they do believe but they just don't know it yet also apply that God would be too cruel to do such a thing; hey it's a loaded question howcome I didn't figure. Seriously though; Abu taleb the uncle of the Prophet was indeed a disbeliever but also a good person , I have no authority to declare what his ultimate fate is but I do have trust in God that He will judge all affairs with justice.

 

[AabiruSabeel]

The absence of any reply to my post further proves my point that atheists do not exist. They don't answer me when I try to speak with them, then how can I believe in their existence?




Can you see any parallels in my arguments and the arguments that atheists make in denying the existence of Allah?

 

[Pygoscelis]

If it seemed mixed up it's because you are connecting them together. You said you pretend to be a believer infront of your mom, right?. Well if the faith wasn't all that significant you wouldn't have had to pretend to be a believer, you'd just tell her that you're an atheist.

Sure, yes, because her belief includes a provision that if I don't believe what she does I am supposed to go to hell. I'd rather she not worry for me like that, so I lie to her and tel I her I believe.

Would you also pretend to believe in Santa Claus infront of your children so they don't get hurt?

I don't expect my children will believe Santa is real. But if I came across a child who did believe in a literal Santa would I play along? Yes, I probably would.

I strongly disagree. You can't be religious and anti-authoritarian at the same time.

I think you can be a theist and be anti-authoritarian. Muslims, no. But hippy pantheist Gaia free spirit types come to mind. I do see your point though. If you define religion as adhering to and following and obeying a God then you'd pretty much have to be authoritarian.

 

[Pygoscelis]

The absence of any reply to my post further proves my point that atheists do not exist. They don't answer me when I try to speak with them, then how can I believe in their existence?

I can take it a bit further for you.

Perhaps the entire forum is a computer simulation and you are the only actual human being that posts here.

Perhaps we are all in the Matrix and none of your real life is actually real.

Perhaps you are a dolphin dreaming you are living a human life.

Perhaps you do not exist.

There are a lot of possibilities.

 

[GuestFellow]

Science tries, but it is fallible and incomplete, and will likely always be so.

It isn't a bad thing to admit you don't know what you don't know. It doesn't mean you should make up answers, or call it "Magick" or call it "God did it".

I didn't know at first either when I was agnostic. From doing research and reading I really believe God created this world. The process I'm not aware of it, but I do believe there is a creator.

If you don't know how this world was created then that's fine...

 

[GuestFellow]

Then how can I say he exists?

:wa:

He just created a topic. Therefore he exists. SIMPLE!

 

[IAmZamzam]

Can you see any parallels in my arguments and the arguments that atheists make in denying the existence of Allah?

We get your drift. It's slightly clever I suppose.

Since I can no longer see what Pygoscelis is saying let me offer a more specific link to that site preemptively. This touches--just barely--on that whole "fallibility of the scientific community and faultiness of common skeptical arguments" issue, although these waters run much, much, much, MUCH deeper. Let it count as a very brief introduction, for want a better one off the top of my head.

 

[AabiruSabeel]

Perhaps the entire forum is a computer simulation and you are the only actual human being that posts here.

Perhaps we are all in the Matrix and none of your real life is actually real.

Perhaps you are a dolphin dreaming you are living a human life.

Perhaps you do not exist.

There are a lot of possibilities.

Isn't that as absurd as thinking that the whole system of universe runs on its own?