Why so many atheist exist online but i barely see many on the streets?

[IAmZamzam]

Well there are some on this board who claim to be non materialists and atheists at the same time.

Well, if you’re talking about any of the conversations where I was present then what they meant by “not all atheists are materialists” was “they’re not all physicalists”. As in “not all of them believe that only the physical world exists”. In which case I still say that I’ll believe it when I see it. There may be a few odd cases here and there but I don’t know if I can think of any off the top of my head. Even Buddhists believe in devas.

They usually write things like 'You like believing in an imaginary guy in the sky, believe in the tooth fairy as well?' It's this kind of thing the atheists write that shows a shameful ignorance of what God means in the life of a lot of people. Comparing God to the tooth fairy and flying teapots. Is this what helps them sleep at night??

They’ll tell you that they’re really trying to prove some purely non-judgmental intellectual point. They’re deceiving themselves. But what do intentions even matter when it comes to something like this? It’s an endlessly repeating pattern throughout history. How many times does The Qur’an say, “And when our signs are shown to the unbelievers, he says, ‘Fairy tales of the ancients!'”

And I strongly agree with the charity part also, although the atheists usually say they do charity I always only see religious institutions reacting to crisis and disasters both in their own country and abroad. I never see atheists raising support and awareness for the Palestinians for example although i have seen some non-Muslims like Christians and even Hindus doing it.

One statistic I’ve come across says that atheists are more charitable or something one-on-one, but another one says that on a larger scale those areas which are more strongly religious tend to be more giving on the whole in terms of the community. I don’t know what the whole truth is and personally I make it a rule never to fully trust any surveys conducted on a topic related to religion or politics. Think about it: for what possible reason would someone without an agenda do a study like that? A genuine reason, I mean, and not prattle and waffle like “general advancement of knowledge of the human psyche on the subject of yada yada”?

 

[Berries'forest]

Before I joined this forum, I used to ask my questions on Yahoo/Answers. But the community hated Islam and 1/10 answers I got was actually helpful. So many atheists and people replying so nasty: You think that Islam is all cupcakes and sunshine, but it is NOT, unfortunately. I almost converted to Islam many years ago. I was like you, thinking of Islam in much the same way. Over times, I discovered the ugly dark sides in Islam. I discovered that Muhammad molested children like his 6 year old wife Aisha, also his cousins. He even had incest with his infant grandsons, al-Haran and al-Hussein. The proofs are all in the Hadiths. He did Muft'khathat on Aisha because she was TOO SMALL for sexual intercourse. You should google Muft'khathat. Or better, type that word on Youtube for its meanings. I also discovered that Muhammad was a barbarous murderer and serial rapist. For example, he had one frail elderly woman tortured and murdered. Her name was Umm Qirfa; consult the Hadiths on that if you please. Guess how she died. She was tied to the camels and quartered thereupon. During torture, she screamed on in agony while Muhammad & his men laughed and jeered. After quartered alive, she was beheaded. This shows how barbaric Muhammad; he was no man of honour when he tortured defenceless elderly people. So then I came to this site to find answers which I got Alhumdulillah. I e-mailed the user who sent me the nasty message and gave him the answer to this and found his lies. He/She replied by saying that I am a pervert. I replied back saying how and why he/she came to that conclusion. That person never replied.

Yahoo answers never provides helpful material in the religious setion. I find it's filled with fundamental radical christians and over the swing atheists. It's good to know you don't ask them any religious questions over there. Don't let them get to you the person whom called you that is probably describing themself. I don't know where they came up with these false allegations. May Allah help them see the truth and follow it.

 

[glo]

I know several atheists in real life.
I probably know more than I realise - it's just that the topic of religion and faith doesn't always come up in conversation ...

As a side note, how do we know that people we meet in our mosques and churches are actual believers and that they aren't just 'toeing the line' and trying to fit in culturally?

 

[tearose]

how do we know that people we meet in our mosques and churches are actual believers and that they aren't just 'toeing the line' and trying to fit in culturally?

Greetings,

I can't speak for people in churches but I would never think of somebody I met in the mosque as possibly not being a believer. We must always assume the best about other Muslims even if only Allah knows what is really in their hearts.

 

[glo]

Greetings,

I can't speak for people in churches but I would never think of somebody I met in the mosque as possibly not being a believer. We must always assume the best about other Muslims even if only Allah knows what is really in their hearts.

Of course we should assume the best of people, but we simply don't know. We can only see how they present on the outside, but only God knows what's in their hearts.

The point I am trying to make is that we simply cannot make such judgments on people. Atheists are not just the people who declare loudly that they don't believe in God. They may be amongst us all the time and simply not say for fear of judgment or negative consequences ... :nervous:

 

[Ahmad H]

This thread is so weird. Asking the question if there are atheists or not? I see so many Atheists around it's not even funny. I live in Canada and it seems like everyone who is Christian is turning to an Atheist. I estimate that in two or three generations Christianity will have paled into complete insignificance here in Canada. At the rate that everyone is becoming Atheist, even Agnostic, I wonder sometimes about the state of the world in general.

It is a serious problem that so many people are becoming Atheists. I have seen this problem growing recently. I argued with a guy who was Muslim and became Atheist, and he requested me to meet him to teach him about Islam. The kid (I say that cause he was just finishing high school) acted so arrogant as if he knew everything. he pulled out anti-Islamic websites on his phone and tried to ask questions using those and told me to answer them for him. Then when I answered him, he would raise questions based on his opinion. HIS OPINION. Just comes to show Atheists have no logic when it comes to religion. They just don't understand it.

But I see many Atheists around. I really don't know why anyone has a hard time finding them. I probably know almost as many Atheists as I do Christians. Maybe more. The sad part is that there are still Muslims who are in danger of becoming Atheist because of the stupid anti-Islamic websites that are on the internet. I won't name them because I don't want to advertise them. They are around and I hope everyone knowledgeable here does their best to counter those websites when they see someone look at them. Don't take them lightly. Be active and stop the spread of the poison which the Islamophobes try to inject into the minds of our young generation. It is the duty of every Muslim to look after his/her brothers and sisters.

 

[Iceee]

Salaam.

This thread is so weird. Asking the question if there are atheists or not? I see so many Atheists around it's not even funny. I live in Canada and it seems like everyone who is Christian is turning to an Atheist. I estimate that in two or three generations Christianity will have paled into complete insignificance here in Canada. At the rate that everyone is becoming Atheist, even Agnostic, I wonder sometimes about the state of the world in general.

I live in Toronto, Canada. A good Christian friend of mine said that as a kid, the Church he attended was always full on Sunday Service. You had to come 30 minutes early to get a good seat. Nowadays, he says that you can come directly as the pastor is about to start talking and you can get a seat in the third row. I asked him whether it was because people came late, and he said no.

It was because we live in a whole new society where people are living a happy life and they don't need religion anymore to protect them.

There are so many atheists in my high school, even Muslims at my school who are friends of mine are leaving religion, eating pork, dating girls, trying out drugs etc. The thing is, when you bring up religion they will counter it right away. Whatever you say, they have something to counter it from. Now, I see my friends doing so many things but I don't say anything because nothing can bring them back.

I would think the high divorce rate in North America would bring people back to religion, whether it was Christianity, Judaism, Muslim, but as you can see, it doesn't.

There are a lot of atheists in cities like Toronto, just not thought about.

 

[Sothis Girl]

I used to be agnostic in disguise. Yet my ID card showed "Islam" back then. I was known in public as "born muslim". People just say horrible things about religion-less and God-less people, thinking they must be immoral animals. Better stay far from conflict.

 

[Pygoscelis]

The point I am trying to make is that we simply cannot make such judgments on people. Atheists are not just the people who declare loudly that they don't believe in God. They may be amongst us all the time and simply not say for fear of judgment or negative consequences ... :nervous:

I can pretty much guarantee it. You know more atheists than you think you do. And you may be surprise how easily they will come out to other atheists but not to you guys. This is especially common in highly religious areas of the world, where atheists are shunned and deemed evil simply for lacking belief.

Even where atheism is common, such as where I live (near Toronto as the poster above), many atheists will hide it from you, because they know their friends, family, or loved ones worry about them going to hell and they don't want to cause them grief. I did this for both of my grandmothers, who would have been absolutely terrified and worried sick if they had known I am not a Christian.

This is also very common in children who are not independent of their parents. Many many atheist children fear telling their parents they don't believe in this stuff, fearing what would happen if they did. Coming out as an atheist is sort of similar to coming out as gay, or telling somebody online that you are a Muslim for that matter. You often get an instant reaction, full of ignorant prejudices, and often hatred. The reaction can be something you simply don't want to deal with. And unlike homosexuals pretending to be straight and forgoing their sexuality, or Muslims pretending to not be Muslims and insulting their faith, atheists really don't lose a whole lot by pretending to be religious.

Oh, and yes of course online there are a lot of atheist trolls. Some people get off on angering others, and religion is a very easy button to push. And don't think for a second that it doesn't come in both directions (you may be surprised at some of the hate filled private messages I have gotten over the years for saying I don't believe). If you are talking about somebody who died like in that example and it says "RIP" at the end and some atheist troll rudely says "God doesn't exist!" - - of course he's trolling. What other reason can there be for that other than for him to be trying to ruffle some feathers? Meanwhile, you can be pretty certain that there are a dozen or more other atheists reading who didn't do that and who didn't think religion was relevant.

Most of us atheists see the religious as usually harmless, sometimes silly, sometimes dangerous, and often thin skinned. I won't walk on eggshells to avoid offending the religious, nor should I have to, but I won't go out of my way to be rude or hateful towards them either, and most atheists I know are that way.

And yes, we walk amongst you, often silently. The OP thinks he doesn't know any atheists? I call all but guarantee he does. He just doesn't know it.

 

[Berries'forest]

And yes, we walk amongst you, often silently. The OP thinks he doesn't know any atheists? I call all but guarantee he does. He just doesn't know it.

How would you be so sure?.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Sorry "Call but guarantee it" was meant to read "Can all but guarantee it". I'm sleepy

And how do I know? Because I know lots and lots of closet atheists, from all around the world, and sometimes I have been one myself. We're everywhere. You can't be sure we aren't in your family or your circle of friends. Odds are very good that we are.

Believe it or not, not only can we be in your mosques, churches and temples pretending to believe, but we can even be within the clergy:

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/Non-Believing-Clergy.pdf

 

[Indian Bro]

Sorry "Call but guarantee it" was meant to read "Can all but guarantee it". I'm sleepy

And how do I know? Because I know lots and lots of closet atheists, from all around the world, and sometimes I have been one myself. We're everywhere. You can't be sure we aren't in your family or your circle of friends. Odds are very good that we are.

Believe it or not, not only can we be in your mosques, churches and temples pretending to believe, but we can even be within the clergy:

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/Non-Believing-Clergy.pdf

Hi Pygoscelis

From my experience, I've encountered more agnostics than atheists. I live in India, one of the most culturally divers countries in the world and I've spoken to many people about their beliefs (non-Muslims) but I have yet to stumble upon an atheists yet, only agnostics. I'm not say atheists don't exist, but I think they're much more tough to find compared to agnostics. If you ask me why I think so, it's because I feel agnosticism is a much more rational and logical than atheism.

 

[Berries'forest]

You can't be sure we aren't in your family or your circle of friends. Odds are very good that we are.
Believe it or not, not only can we be in your mosques, churches and temples pretending to believe, but we can even be within the clergy:

That would be scary....
But they wouldn't be believers if they are concealing their disbelief and being an atheist and religious clergy at the same time is uncalled for why can't a person find another job and leave that position to those whom are turthfully believing.

 

[ZJK24]

This thread is so weird. Asking the question if there are atheists or not? I see so many Atheists around it's not even funny. I live in Canada and it seems like everyone who is Christian is turning to an Atheist. I estimate that in two or three generations Christianity will have paled into complete insignificance here in Canada. At the rate that everyone is becoming Atheist, even Agnostic, I wonder sometimes about the state of the world in general.

It is a serious problem that so many people are becoming Atheists. I have seen this problem growing recently. I argued with a guy who was Muslim and became Atheist, and he requested me to meet him to teach him about Islam. The kid (I say that cause he was just finishing high school) acted so arrogant as if he knew everything. he pulled out anti-Islamic websites on his phone and tried to ask questions using those and told me to answer them for him. Then when I answered him, he would raise questions based on his opinion. HIS OPINION. Just comes to show Atheists have no logic when it comes to religion. They just don't understand it.

But I see many Atheists around. I really don't know why anyone has a hard time finding them. I probably know almost as many Atheists as I do Christians. Maybe more. The sad part is that there are still Muslims who are in danger of becoming Atheist because of the stupid anti-Islamic websites that are on the internet. I won't name them because I don't want to advertise them. They are around and I hope everyone knowledgeable here does their best to counter those websites when they see someone look at them. Don't take them lightly. Be active and stop the spread of the poison which the Islamophobes try to inject into the minds of our young generation. It is the duty of every Muslim to look after his/her brothers and sisters.

Yes you are right that it is much more the Christians than Muslims who are becoming atheist BOTH online and in real life. But still in my immediate location i regularly see the churches very active as well as the mosques and I always see outside shops Muslims and Christian preaching about who Jesus is and such. even I see many white British people who are perhaps not religious at all, when you here them speak in everyday conversation or on buses/trains about anything related to afterlife or God they still always say 'I believe there is something more than just this, I believe we were created by someone' Just in real life I never encounter any of those atheists that are on Youtube and Yahoo answers - the ones that harshly mock and ridicule religious people and are absolutely hardened and cannot be changed from their disbelief, the ones that loudly demand 'I want evidence' and they say you are anti-science.

I don't know maybe because if I was studying at university or something I may encounter more atheists personally and they are always on chat/debate shows also mocking people like local Muslim leaders but in my immediate area in person no.

I know that if I want to know about who is Jesus I can go across the street and get answers from both elder Muslims and Christians but the atheists just like to gang up on people online and that's why I thought of atheism as some online trend not reflective of reality.

 

[ZJK24]

Most of us atheists see the religious as usually harmless

So how come someone like Richard Dawkins considers raising a child in religion to be the WORST form of child abuse? And then those followers of Dawkins will repeat that same thing over and over.

Also if you ever heard someone like Christopher Hitchens speak about religions he will take the position that religion should be completely eroded from society and causes nothing but problems and wars. How then can religion and faith in God be harmless if these men are saying it deserves to be eliminated?

Remmeber when Hitchens spoke about Salman Rushdie, he spoke so harshly of Islam and he didn't even just reserve his attacks for the 'fundamentalists'. And Hitchens was furious that Rushdie had his book burnt here in the UK while paying no attention to what Rushdie did, as if just because that mattered to Muslims it means that 'educated' smarter atheist scientists and philosophers should not be concerned with it, and should only focus on the book being burnt.

Even many of those British atheist writers who support Rushdie like Hanif Kureishi they spoke about Islam in terms of children believing in Santa and the tooth fairy. I mean do these 'intellectual' atheists just think of people of faith as being like a child then?

 

[Sothis Girl]

Most of us atheists see the religious as usually harmless, sometimes silly, sometimes dangerous, and often thin skinned. I won't walk on eggshells to avoid offending the religious, nor should I have to, but I won't go out of my way to be rude or hateful towards them either, and most atheists I know are that way.

And yes, we walk amongst you, often silently.

As I was one (but as agnostic) I can relate to this. My own family didn't really know I was that far to disbelieving, all they just knew I was "really lazy to offer salaah". For several reasons I viewed organized religions as corrupted, but of course had no gut to openly express it. Why risking myself to be treated like dirt for something that's actually really, really personal?

Only by Allah's Mercy I can get back, and with no pretending. Though now I'm still highly skeptical to religious authority, which made me despised organized religions in the first place, I don't really give a darn about it anymore. I'm a servant of Allah, and that's all that matters.

 

[glo]

This is also very common in children who are not independent of their parents. Many many atheist children fear telling their parents they don't believe in this stuff, fearing what would happen if they did. Coming out as an atheist is sort of similar to coming out as gay, or telling somebody online that you are a Muslim for that matter. You often get an instant reaction, full of ignorant prejudices, and often hatred. The reaction can be something you simply don't want to deal with. And unlike homosexuals pretending to be straight and forgoing their sexuality, or Muslims pretending to not be Muslims and insulting their faith, atheists really don't lose a whole lot by pretending to be religious.

This is something I like about secular societies. It reduces the pressure on people to conform.

The church attendance in our church on an average Sunday morning is around 60 people.
I am sure that 50 years ago there were many more people in the Sunday morning congregation, and 100 years ago the church would have been full.
But what measure is that?
I think back then there was a much greater pressure to conform.

Today I am sure that the people who come to church are coming because they want to, not because they feel they have to. Okay there may be the odd teenager who comes under parental duress - but even then that is not evident.
The point is, people are free to come or to stay at home.

In addition, not everybody who attends our church considers themselves Christian. Some are on the fringes of Christianity, others might not call themselves Christian at all. And still they come. Whatever their reasons, they can come as they are, participate in the religious ceremony or not, without being judged or treated differently for it.

To give and example, my 19-year-old daughter is not a church-goer. I am not even sure that she believes in God. She describes herself as an agnostic. In September she started to volunteer at our church's weekly after-school club. She is arty, so she does the arts and crafts and has less to do with the Bible teaching.
Yesterday she was asked whether she could help this morning with the children's group at the church service, because it was Easter Sunday and more children than usual were expected.
So she came along.
It was the first time that she has attended a church service in the last 9 years or so, since my husband put his foot down and decided that he did not want his children to go to church.
Being 'unchurched' much during the service was quite alien to my daughter, but she felt comfortable nonetheless. For example, she did not take part in the communion (when people share bread and wine) because that didn't seem right to her.
Most importantly, she felt made welcome and very much accepted.
Will she go again? I don't know. But I know that if she does, people will be happy to see her – just as she is!

And why wouldn't they?
I love my daughter. She is a great young woman! I will love her, whether she decides to become a Christian, an atheist or a Muslim, or decides to remain an agnostic.

 

[Pygoscelis]

That would be scary....
But they wouldn't be believers if they are concealing their disbelief and being an atheist and religious clergy at the same time is uncalled for why can't a person find another job and leave that position to those whom are turthfully believing.

Excellent point, and one that has been made and that they addressed following the paper linked to above. The answer is that it simply isn't that easy. Keep in mind that these people have based their entire lives around God often, including the financial security of themselves and their families. Also keep in mind the impact that it may have on believers for their clergy, who are often role models of faith to them, to come out as atheists all of a sudden. It isn't something you'd want to do abruptly or without the greatest of care.

Here is a link to the clergy project. It is a group and charity founded to help these no longer believing clergy to move out and leave that position to those whom are truthfully
believing.

http://www.clergyproject.org/news/

 

[Pygoscelis]

So how come someone like Richard Dawkins considers raising a child in religion to be the WORST form of child abuse? And then those followers of Dawkins will repeat that same thing over and over.

Also if you ever heard someone like Christopher Hitchens speak about religions he will take the position that religion should be completely eroded from society and causes nothing but problems and wars. How then can religion and faith in God be harmless if these men are saying it deserves to be eliminated?

Simple. Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens are not most atheists. For every atheist I know that touts them there are at least four or five I know that roll their eyes at them.

Sometimes, I'll admit, I find Hitchens funny. He had a razor wit and is a good read to vent after some religious person has done something nasty. But mostly, I think he does more harm than good and that atheists shouldn't follow his example.

Dawkins I actually respect greatly as a writer about biology. Selfish Gene and Extended Phenotype and his various books on evolution are excellent reads. I'm not sure if I fully buy into his ideas, but they are well thought out and written and I enjoy reading him. He should stay away from talking about religion and leave that to guys like Neil Degrasse Tyson (a hero of mine).

 

[Pygoscelis]

glo,

I really enjoy reading your posts. You sound like a wonderful mother and a great person. I wish all religious people were like you.

I understand where your daughter is coming from. I have been to religious buildings and attended religious ceremonies three times in the past two years. I agree that had the social pressure been stronger here I would have had to go a lot more, and I may have come to resent it. Since the pressure is so low, when I do go I enjoy it as a cultural learning experience. I treat it the same way I would treat attending a native american ceremony. I am a quiet observer, extremely respectful while there, confused by some of the ceremonies and impressed by others. I had a thread on here a while ago about having visited a Catholic church and witnessing the eucharist and other religious rites.