Child Unwell But Parents Did Not Seek Medical Attention

[CosmicPathos]

Do you or do you not claim to have a right to kill and abuse your children however you see fit?

As a Muslim, I do not have such a right in the court of God. Outside of that, no frigging Homo sapien has the right to tell me what I can or cannot do with my own children.

 

[Pygoscelis]

The central dogma of molecular biology deals with the detailed residue-by-residue transfer of sequential information. It states that such information cannot be transferred back from protein to either protein or nucleic acid.

What does that have to do with morality?

As a Muslim, I do not have such a right in the court of God. Outside of that, no frigging Homo sapien has the right to tell me what I can or cannot do with my own children.

Interesting... so let's turn it around then. If you had it in your power to easily prevent a stranger from killing and abusing his children, would you? Or would you give him his right to do this and stand back and wait for Allah to deal with him after the damage is done?

 

[CosmicPathos]

Interesting... so let's turn it around then. If you had it in your power to easily prevent a stranger from killing and abusing his children, would you? Or would you give him his right to do this and stand back and wait for Allah to deal with him after the damage is done?

you asked me about my belief. I answered that. I am not responsible for what someone else does.

 

[CosmicPathos]

What does that have to do with morality?

it means that sperms and eggs and zygotes are governed by same laws.

 

[Pygoscelis]

you asked me about my belief. I answered that. I am not responsible for what someone else does.

Yes, of course. But I didn't ask if you were responsible for what somebody else does. I asked if you would interfere and stop them from killing or abusing their children.

it means that sperms and eggs and zygotes are governed by same laws.

By the same moral laws? Also, why have we switched from fetuses to zygotes?

 

[Futuwwa]

it means that sperms and eggs and zygotes are governed by same laws.

Physical laws, not moral or legal laws. Physical "laws" are not laws in the same sense, they are simply observed, factual descriptions of how the universe works, and have no normative implications.

 

[Karl]

If you regard things like domestic affairs and being a Gentile as more sacrosanct than human life then that’s your problem.

Not my problem, it's my POSITION. Big difference.

extend the same courtesy and don’t bring it to our own doorstep

Ummm, this IS a discussion forum. You can discuss YOUR position and I can discuss MINE.

What kind of an impression do you think you’re giving by writing posts like that?

I'm not some kind of poster boy for politically correct version Islam. Different people will obviously feel differently about my worldview, just as they will with yours. No big deal is it?

Congratulations: you might have just contributed to the motives of a real case of someone putting a bullet through someone else. Through a Muslim, specifically.

Just because one labels themselves a "Muslim" doesn't automatically mean that that should get them off the hook if they trespass. I have stated you my parental sovereignty position. It is an ABSOLUTE UNCONDITIONAL POSITION I hold and it applies to ALL outsiders regardless of whether the trespasser happens to have the world "Muslim" or "communist" or "Christian" (or whatever else) tattooed on his or her forehead or not.

 

[Karl]

The children are citizen of the state. So, the state has duty to protect them from abuse or anything that endanger them, whoever do this.

It depends WHAT state you are talking about though. Statism is NOT some kind of universal monolithic thing even if your beloved United Nations Communist Terror organization likes to dictate that it is. I admit that most modern day secularist totalitarian states have usurped parental sovereignty and forcibly subsumed parents in to an official status of subservience to the state. But that doesn't mean to say that I for one am going to AGREE and COOPERATE with the state. I have told you over and over and over again that my OWN position is that I do simply not recognise at all state authority over my DOMESTIC AFFAIRS. That the state has the POWER to invade my private property and usurp my parental authority DOESN'T change the fact that in the hypothetical event of any state intrusion into my domestic affairs I WILL fight them to the death to defend my private property and parental sovereignty which I passionately consider to be my God Given Right. You are simply wasting your time if you think you can ever change my mind on this.

Also, God does not give right for parents to do something bad to their children.

That might be true, ok. BUT I regard this matter as something that is strictly between ME and ALLAH (SWT). If I ever need to be "punished" for anything I ever do "wrong" in my domestic affairs I will ONLY accept ALLAH (swt) judging me on that, NOT any external third party Earthly entity such as a "state" or "collective".

 

[Trumble]

I say it again. If couples are free to abort their fetuses, then couples can and should do whatever they want to with their zygotes, embryo, fetuses, neonates, infants and adolescents. the pathetic human society does not see its own hypocrisy and psygo has already called on for me being locked up cuz I unveiled his hypocrisy.

There is no 'hypocrisy'. There is no reason whatsoever that the 'then' should follow from the 'if', something easily understood by the millions/billions who reject abortion while also rejecting the abusers' charter labelled 'parental sovereignty'. The statement only makes logical sense if fetuses, infants and adolescents are identical. They are not, a fact that remains true whatever your position on abortion may be, or when 'life' may happen to start.

I'm not sure what's worse, the 'rights' claimed by some posters here or the nonsensical arguments attempting to justify them. The only good news is that you will both still be waving your arms, going red in face, 'rejecting' whatever you like and holding whatever 'positions' you like in total futility while the authorities act in the best interests of your children and society as a whole.

 

[Karl]

What if you could forget for a little time that every societies would be all the time something "red" or "leftist". Society is the place you live and it can be also islamic society. Do you think that it is ok in islamic society that parents can make to they children what ever they want - even seriously risk they lives? In this the first post parents didn´t make sure that they child get enough medical care and caused death of the child (as judge thinks). Do you think that islamic society should to be just quiet in kind of situation and let parents to continue similar kind of behavior with they other children too? Or should islamic society ensure the basic security of all of its citizens - including those whose are defenceless by age or by some other reason?

I don't wish to speak on behalf of everyone. I only wish to speak on behalf of MYSELF. As a staunch isolationist and patriarchalist I don't acknowledge the authority of ANY modern state whatsoever to interfere in my domestic affairs. PERIOD. Is that so hard to understand? I don't consider myself (nor my offspring) to be a "citizen" of any state, even the nation of which I reside in now. I am my own freestanding autonomous separatist self. I want nothing at all to do with anyone's "society" and I don't want them to have anything to do with me either. I am none of their inherent business and they are none of my business. If however different parents such as yourself wish to ACCEPT to be subservient slaves to a state then that is your choice. If you ACCEPT the state usurpation of your parental sovereignty then that is your choice to accept it. To each their own..

Of my mind it should and I would like to know what Islam and/or sharia says about kind of matter.

There are many forms of Islam. Shafii Islam in particular supports my position and comes quite close to the Patria Potestas principle of old Roman law. (Absolute powers of the father over his offspring). Like old Roman law, under Shafii civil law, it is illegal to initiate force against non domestic EXTERNAL entities, but this does not apply to a father in regards to his own offspring. So for example I can not legally go and kill some stranger down the road, but what I do with my own offspring is no external entity's business whatsoever. This is why (apparently) Shafii Islam is the only form of Islam I can accept.

 

[Karl]

Is this because you created them or because you are an anarchist?

Definitely because I fathered them yes. Perhaps I am an anarchist as well? If I am then I guess that's another reason.

Would you equally claim a right to kill your parents, or does this right you claim only run down the family tree and not up it?

It only runs DOWN the family tree, not up it. One can't procreate their parents. My offspring are the possessions of me, I am not the possession of them. My position accords similarly to how it used to be in the old Roman times. A father could kill his offspring but offspring had no authority to kill parents.

From what you have written may I assume you have no problem with honour killings and that sort of things that may happen in other families which are not yours?

Yes I have no problem with honour killing. I have not the arrogance nor interest to interfere into anyone else's domestic affairs no matter what they get up to in their domestic affairs. What they do is their own business, not mine.

This is a rare find for me. Do you know many others who share your view?

Yes, I would imagine it is quite a rare stance nowadays. It is certainly not mainstream or "top of the pops" you could say. My passionate worldview has been gradually in decline particularly since the popular rise of socialism and Marxism during the course of the 20th and early 21st centuries as well as socialist cultural imperialism that has been foisted onto non Western countries as well (including Islamic ones). Believe it or not though, recognition of parental sovereignty WAS once extremely mainstream. My position would have been actually the norm and yours would have been considered "odd" to say the least. Interfering in someone else's domestic affairs was considered one big no go zone. Fathers would have reacted violently if outsiders dared attempted to interfere in how they chose to raise their offspring. It would have been regarded as about as confrontationally audacious as trying to burn down his house or abduct his wife.

Do you find any foundation for this view in Islam?

You can read what I said to "sister harb" above. Several years ago I went to great lengths to get to the bottom of this before I would convert to Islam. I consulted several imams about this because it was one of the issues of paramount importance to me. I was told that under shafii school of jurisprudence that only Allah (swt) can make judgment upon a father in what he does in his DOMESTIC affairs. He can NOT be judged by an EARTHLY COURT. Only in incidents in which he initiates force against EXTERNAL entities can he be judged in an Earthly court.

 

[Karl]

I love your contrarian and dissenting views. your willingness to fight the collective madness of society (muslim or kaafir) with your own beliefs. I am sick and tired of having people impose their version of Islam on me and then deem me impious cuz I rejected their belief. And then there are 50,000 versions, and all claim to be truthful.

Bravo comrade.

I say it again. If couples are free to abort their fetuses, then couples can and should do whatever they want to with their zygotes, embryo, fetuses, neonates, infants and adolescents. the pathetic human society does not see its own hypocrisy and psygo has already called on for me being locked up cuz I unveiled his hypocrisy.

Thank you, brother! You are one of the best! :statisfie :thumbs_up May Allah bless you a billion times over.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Karl,

There are many forms of Islam.

You are making it sound as if there is a Karl Islam,

Shafii Islam in particular supports my position and comes quite close to the Patria Potestas principle of old Roman law.

Old Roman Law and Islam, this sounds like Karl Islam again.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

 

[ardianto]

I was told that under shafii school of jurisprudence that only Allah (swt) can make judgment upon a father in what he does in his DOMESTIC affairs. He can NOT be judged by an EARTHLY COURT. Only in incidents in which he initiates force against EXTERNAL entities can he be judged in an Earthly court.

Don't make a fitnah toward Shafi'i school.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Karl, thank you for your responses.

One more question. Do you extend your claimed parental sovereignty past adolescence and into adulthood for your children? So long as you live are you the owner of your children, even once they have children of your own? Are you the owner of your grand children and great grand children and all of your descendents downwards?

 

[LauraS]

As a Muslim, I do not have such a right in the court of God. Outside of that, no frigging Homo sapien has the right to tell me what I can or cannot do with my own children.

Please don't have children.

I can't believe I'm reading people saying they ave a right to harm their children is they wish, forget other "homo sapiens" telling you what to do, what about morals?

So I couple of years ago a man killed his seven year old daughter with an axe, should he not be charged by the police because he can do what he wants with his own children?

 

[CosmicPathos]

So I couple of years ago a man killed his seven year old daughter with an axe, should he not be charged by the police because he can do what he wants with his own children?

yup, Allah swt will punish him for his wrong doings.

Please don't have children.

Yes, I will have children, inshAllah. And I will love them. But you are nobody to tell me if I should have children or not and if I should love them or hate them. Mind your own friggin business.

 

[sister herb]

Mind your own friggin business.

Is it also your own business do you answer to others here using dirty expressions or answer in a polite and kind way? May Allah guide you.

 

[LauraS]

yup, Allah swt will punish him for his wrong doings.





.

What, so he shouldn't be dealt with by man made law too?

 

[IAmZamzam]

“Do not take any human beings life—[the life] which God has willed to be sacred—other than in [the pursuit of] justice.” (Quran 25:68, Asad)