Men and women are different, but complement each other.

[جوري]

To correct you on that statement I have seen plenty of women in construction work. I should also mention that the woman I saw had biceps which winked at me :uuh:. Very scary seeing a 6 and a half foot tall woman but they do exist.

Women have equal opportunities in America mostly except for government jobs. The issue is not a matter of them being permitted to work it is a matter of them getting hired. Certain fields women have better odds then men but mostly men have better chances then women. Take for example my friend who is an electrician His company tends not to hire women out of fear they cannot perform manual tasks as equivalent to men. Companies will always be biased regardless of it being illegal.

Indeed. Even Female doctors and engineers are paid less than their male counterparts, but they don't put the same hours as men do they? Nor should they!
I don't expect a woman who just gave birth to be back on the job at 7 am and put in as many hours!
construction in the U.S is one of the most dangerous jobs I don't know if it ranked one or two. I feel sorry that a woman would have to do any kind of physically exhausting manual labor to butter her bread. work in a mine field or construction or front line infantry. Is this a play for equality? one that has lost all reverence for womanhood and motherhood?
I am not sure who is convincing whom of what.. but no woman is that stupid.. necessity perhaps forces them but no one believes that in doing so it means equality!

 

[Sir Fluffy]

Indeed. Even Female doctors and engineers are paid less than their male counterparts, but they don't put the same hours as men do they? Nor should they!
I don't expect a woman who just gave birth to be back on the job at 7 am and put in as many hours!
construction in the U.S is one of the most dangerous jobs I don't know if it ranked one or two. I feel sorry that a woman would have to do any kind of physically exhausting manual labor to butter her bread. work in a mine field or construction or front line infantry. Is this a play for equality? one that has lost all reverence for womanhood and motherhood?
I am not sure who is convincing whom of what.. but no woman is that stupid.. necessity perhaps forces them but no one believes that in doing so it means equality!

Right on the spot al-Anud. Having the same jobs as a man is not equivalent to being paid equally.
I have known plenty women who have worked with me in warehouses and no matter how brawny they are they simply cannot keep up with males. As for serving on the frontlines of the military, nobody wishes to die needlessly for a cause that is not theirs. Lots of men in military services around the world would love to never enter combat while serving their duty.
Men and women have their do's and don'ts and wanting to be equal to men is biologically impossible. Because to be equal means you have to be able to perform the same way a man can which will include manual labor. usually women do not hold in this area as much as men. It does not mean inferiority and women should be happy of the things that they can do that men can't. We all serve a purpose and people should learn to better fulfill it.

 

[جوري]

Because to be equal means you have to be able to perform the same way a man can which will include manual labor

The operative word here is equal in the eyes of whom? Do you buy into all that BS about we can do it too and women working in factories while their kids are being taken from them & put up for adoption. That was the actual point in the breakdown of a family. By the way many of the sisters on this forum have doctorates and masters myself included wal7mdullilah so it isn't a matter of refusing education. It is a matter of the false belief that if women go down to factories, or mines or armies or even law firms they're equal to men. Our equality at least with :Allah::swt: doesn't come from carrying one ton oF bricks oN the back and lugging it up iron beams.
I look at western society in general and think wow these really are the most exploited subjugated and overly sexualized women they can't even sell toothpaste or shaving cream without some half naked woman involved, and unfortunately our societies by proxy since we follow them to hijr dhabb as the prophet described, or rather that they've imposed on us their idea of freedom & equal rights that it seems so sparkly. To this day when I visit other places, I am often dumfounded by how awestruck they're by anything American or European if they only knew of the toxic work environments, the unending payments and the wastage of years on education that you can have in half the time if allowed but having to go through a system that is meant to stultify your growth and artificially prolong your childhood.

 

[جوري]

look at this even a 12 year old knows all about the BS..

 

[Sir Fluffy]

The operative word here is equal in the eyes of whom? Do you buy into all that BS about we can do it too and women working in factories while their kids are being taken from them & put up for adoption. That was the actual point in the breakdown of a family. By the way many of the sisters on this forum have doctorates and masters myself included wal7mdullilah so it isn't a matter of refusing education. It is a matter of the false belief that if women go down to factories, or mines or armies or even law firms they're equal to men. Our equality at least with :Allah::swt: doesn't come from carrying one ton on bricks on your back and lugging it up iron beams.
I look at western society in general and think wow these really are the most exploited subjugated and overly sexualized women they can't even sell you toothpaste or shaving cream without some half naked woman involved, and unfortunately our societies by proxy since we follow them to hijr dhabb as the prophet described, or rather that they've imposed on us their idea of freedom & equal rights that it seems so sparkly. To this day when I visit other places, I am often dumfounded by how awestruck they're by anything American or European if they only knew of the toxic work environments, the unending payments and the wastage of years on education that you honestly have in half the time if allowed but having to go through a system that is meant to stultify your grown and artificially prolong your childhood.

My own sisters went ahead got their degrees and became successful medical experts in their own fields. None of which have done jobs befitting for a man. They each have a salary far greater than males in manual labor fields and they are happy of this. They do not complain about being equal to men and earning less and not being able to haul 80 pounds of cement while in the desert heat. Men do not desire such jobs either as a whole!
Women in the west are exploited even by the things they use to dignify themselves Women now want rights to go topless like males in the USA. They somehow believe they are raising their status and creating a positive outlook upon themselves. In reality they are appearing as *****s(excuse my language) to all men and only making themselves looked down upon.
Somehow bad has become good and good has become bad, this is a very backwards world we live in :mmokay:

 

[ardianto]

All of my employees in my courier agents are males. I prefer male for this job because I need employee who have "field people mindset" that usually males.

There are jobs which males are preferable, there are jobs which females are preferable.

 

[Independent]

The operative word here is equal in the eyes of whom?

In your reply you are confusing 'equal' with 'same'. I don't think women are the same as men. I don't think one woman is the same as another woman. The state's proper obligation is to ensure equality of opportunity and access.

Of course, some individuals are better equipped for some jobs, whether mentally or physically. But the state should not intervene in the employer's choice by preventing them from hiring any particular group - such as women.

Whereas, Abz thinks women should be excluded by the state from the majority of jobs. For some reason, he thinks this is not totalitarian, and that providing access to all is totalitarian.

It has become apparent that women are at least as able as men in a whole swathe of jobs, especially the type of job that modern western economies tend to create. In terms of ability it is now factually incorrect to say that they 'can't' do these jobs. If you believe that they 'shouldn't' do these jobs, for religious reasons, that's another matter. But for a secular state such as the UK, where Abz lives, it is logical, fair and just that the state should legislate where possible to provide equal access.

Personally, I have employed both men and women over the years and I have experienced successes and failures with both groups.

 

[ardianto]

A few days ago I went to a computer repair shop and I saw a hijabi woman was repairing laptop. A rare sight in my place, a woman repairing electronic equipment.

There is no prohibition for women to work as an electronics repair(wo)man, but the women themselves who avoid work like this and prefer other fields. Secretarial work in the office, for example. Highly dominated by women because men are reluctant to work as a secretary.

So, beside "there are jobs which males are preferable, there are jobs which females are preferable" in fact "there are jobs which preferable by men, there are jobs which preferable by women".

 

[GodIsAll]

Equality doesn't mean sameness.
and generally I speak at least for Muslim women, we don't want to be treated equal to you, we want to be treated better!

That made me actually laugh out loud. Pure and total honesty! Love it!

I've done the house-building, concrete pouring, brick laying gigs, mostly through college. Tough work for anybody and I am glad I only have to do those types of things when I choose to nowadays.

 

[جوري]

In your reply you are confusing 'equal' with 'same'.

Where have I confused the two when I clearly wrote if you read

Equality doesn't mean sameness.

You didn't understand that the first time around? needed to be broken down further?

Of course, some individuals are better equipped for some jobs, whether mentally or physically. But the state should not intervene in the employer's choice by preventing them from hiring any particular group - such as women.

Shouldn't but it does plenty I have evinced it above!

It has become apparent that women are at least as able as men in a whole swathe of jobs, especially the type of job that modern western economies tend to create.

Western economies create ponzie schemes which they need to sustain by invading sovereign nations.

where Abz lives

That's not where ABZ lives!

Personally, I have employed both men and women over the years and I have experienced successes and failures with both groups.

I'd imagine in your line of work women would excel indeed, women are said they're better writers especially on forums.

best,

 

[ardianto]

Women do not want to be treated equal to men, that they want is to be treated in a special way as a woman.

 

[GodIsAll]

I'd imagine in your line of work women would excel indeed, women are said they're better writers especially on forums.

Me no argue point that. Ungah.

 

[Independent]

Providing equality of access to employment is not the same as saying men and women are equal in the sense of 'the same'. And open access to a job is not equivalent to being forced to actually do it.

Where have I confused the two when I clearly wrote if you read

For instance, here:

The operative word here is equal in the eyes of whom?

The basic principle of equality of access and opportunity to employment is not subjective, it's not in anyone's eyes in particular. The State should not intervene to prevent any employer from hiring men or women. What's it got to do with the State?

I feel sorry that a woman would have to do any kind of physically exhausting manual labor to butter her bread.

You're continually making irrelevant comparisons with jobs that women are less likely to take on under any system. Having an equal right of access to all jobs doesn't mean a compulsion to take on one job in particular. As Ardianto says, men and women may simply prefer certain professions, whether or not they are equally able for it. No problem! The State should let the individual decide. What would be wrong is for the state to say that women, for example, are simply barred from a range of jobs which they are perfectly able to do.

Equality doesn't mean sameness.
and generally I speak at least for Muslim women, we don't want to be treated equal to you, we want to be treated better!

A secular state which seeks to guarantee equality of access does not prevent you or anyone else from choosing the lifestyle you prefer. If a couple wish to follow traditional roles with man as breadwinner, woman as homemaker, that's fine. And if a woman wants her own career, equally fine. This is for the individual to decide, not the state. If you're fortunate enough to find someone to keep you in luxury, that's your lucky break.

Even Female doctors and engineers are paid less than their male counterparts

As well as guaranteeing job access, the state should legislate to ensure fair pay and conditions for all groups, no matter who they are. Great progress has been made on this in many European countries. I don't know about the US but I assume efforts are under way there too.

I feel sorry that a woman would have to do any kind of physically exhausting manual labor to butter her bread.

I feel sorry for anyone who is forced to do a job they don't want. Regrettably, making a living can be hard and people have to do what is necessary to survive. This doesn't have anything much to do with equal job access, however.

 

[جوري]

Providing equality of access to employment is not the same as saying men and women are equal in the sense of 'the same'. And open access to a job is not equivalent to being forced to actually do it.

I fail to see how the logorrhea deranges what I'd written here:

Equality doesn't mean sameness.

The basic principle of equality of access and opportunity to employment is not subjective, it's not in anyone's eyes in particular. The State should not intervene to prevent any employer from hiring men or women. What's it got to do with the State?

The state does restrict certain jobs that women can attain. I am not sure what you're arguing about. I have already listed several that women can't have per state law- and even if not made into a law, women aren't accepted into such jobs anyway. No point in pretenses.

A secular state which seeks to guarantee equality of access does not prevent you or anyone else from choosing the lifestyle you prefer. If a couple wish to follow traditional roles with man as breadwinner, woman as homemaker, that's fine. And if a woman wants her own career, equally fine. This is for the individual to decide, not the state. If you're fortunate enough to find someone to keep you in luxury, that's your lucky break.

In theory that should be true, in actuality, you've doctors & engineers without employment in spite of playing the game!

He is definitely not the exception. It is a matter of values or lack thereof and what sells not what's best for anyone!

As well as guaranteeing job access, the state should legislate to ensure fair pay and conditions for all groups, no matter who they are. Great progress has been made on this in many European countries. I don't know about the US but I assume efforts are under way there too.

No such efforts are taking place, see above example. In fact all the so-called jobs that are being created to stimulate the economy are a temporary fix. A friend of mine works for a company where they created some 20,000 jobs and he said they'll let go of at least 15,000-17,000 of those over the next few months. Those people are going to put on their resume worked for such and such company for a year or less, they're going to apply somewhere else to butter their bread, elsewhere will look at them as folks who can't keep a job for it is terrible to work in any place for less than two years, and the majority of them will go on assistance or will roll into another crappy low end paying job that doesn't suit their expertise or skills only to make money for some cretin on top of the food chain who has probably not seen the inside of a university in his life!

I feel sorry for anyone who is forced to do a job they don't want. Regrettably, making a living can be hard and people have to do what is necessary to survive. This doesn't have anything much to do with equal job access, however.

It has everything to do with it. Things seem nice on paper the reality of things is completely opposite of that image sold, especially to other countries where they're hoping to export and impose that image of 'free equal access society'

best,

 

[Independent]

I fail to see how the logorrhea deranges what I'd written here:

I'm sorry, but this doesn't mean anything in English.

The state does restrict certain jobs that women can attain. I am not sure what you're arguing about.

Well, I'm really replying to Abz rather than you throughout this thread. He appears to believe it's ok for the State to bar women from certain jobs. I think this is wrong, every job should be open to any applicant. That doesn't mean that everyone wants to apply for every job, or that they may actually get it.

It's a simple principle of open access under the law.

No such efforts are taking place, see above example. In fact all the so-called jobs that are being created to stimulate the economy are a temporary fix.

Job creation is an entirely separate issue. But rather than, as usual, despising the country which provides you with a home and a living, you should respect the fact that the US has a terrific record of job creation over the centuries. I don't agree with everything they do either, but this achievement has to be respected.

 

[جوري]

I'm sorry, but this doesn't mean anything in English.

Sure it does.. try the medical dictionary

It's a simple principle of open access under the law.

Like I said good on paper only!

Job creation is an entirely separate issue. But rather than, as usual, despising the country which provides you with a home and a living, you should respect the fact that the US has a terrific record of job creation over the centuries. I don't agree with everything they do either, but this achievement has to be respected.

Whatever I personally achieved in life, I have achieved through my own sacrifice, hard work and study not through a country. I take my heart & mind with me everywhere!
Some of the crap I had to endure here is unbelievable and unacceptable. Starting with respect that should be attained for the mere fact that one is a human being above all else but what can one expect from a place that glorifies its wh0res and renders homeless its scholars?
Let's see how the 'job creation' that is to be admired fares in this new economy over the next decade or so!

best,

 

[greenhill]

Men and women are different but complement each other. Absolutely agree. If only we acknowledge this and get on with life.

Why the attention to compare the two? Apart from the obvious physical differences, we are also emotionaly and experiencially different and that too will change over time. So, in talking about complementing each other, it should remain there, complementing, and not competing. Competing in every field is alien in Islam except to do good for Allah's sake. Even better if done anonymously. So back to the question, can we complement each other? I believe we can. Just don't get your plot with your partner get lost along the way. Review it, if necessary. Life is a journey. Even the prophet sought comfort from his wife who gave him strength after his Iqra' encounter with Gabriel. Compliment each other. Roles can be reversed temporarily, occasionally, or whenever, nothing wrong with that. Give and take. That's life.:statisfie

Peace

 

[Independent]

Like I said good on paper only!

This is plainly not correct. The difference between a state that legally bars women from certain jobs and activities (such as Saudi Arabia) and one that leaves it up to personal choice in the vast majority of cases (eg the US) is absolutely clear and real. The difference is not just on paper, it's clear to see. It's actually a really simple principle.

what can one expect from a place that glorifies its wh0res and renders homeless its scholars?

It would seem you are unable to adjust to living in the US. Instead of complaining about it, you should find somewhere that doesn't lead you to express hatred on a daily basis.

Sure it does.. try the medical dictionary

'Deranges' is the wrong word in this context. Possibly you mean something like 'contradicts'. But as ever, it's hard to tell.

 

[جوري]

glad you looked up logorrhea and learned something new.. try to curb down its usage so we're not wasting web space on so much drivel

This is plainly not correct. The difference between a state that legally bars women from certain jobs and activities (such as Saudi Arabia) and one that leaves it up to personal choice in the vast majority of cases (eg the US) is absolutely clear and real. The difference is not just on paper, it's clear to see. It's actually a really simple principle.

I think you're still having a difficult time understanding 'exclusion' from a job.. speaking of Saudi I was offered fantastic career opportunities there as a woman that I wasn't offered here in the U.S- only problems there consisted of having a sponsor.
I have lived there for four years so I'd refrain from making comments as you often display your ignorance.
You deny some words that exist, you presume to know where ABZ lives you make blanket statements about countries you've never been. And yet don't even bother to save face with later attempts.. how admirable!

It would seem you are unable to adjust to living in the US. Instead of complaining about it, you should find somewhere that doesn't lead you to express hatred on a daily basis.

everywhere I go not only am I well adjusted I also excel. Let's get all your turds out of the Muslim world first before discussing me personally.
Also there are no laws against hatred last I checked. You seem to express it quite often though but cover it with enough grease so others swallow it!

'Deranges' is the wrong word in this context. Possibly you mean something like 'contradicts'. But as ever, it's hard to tell.

:haha: If you didn't know the first word and denied its existence with such vehemence, then you're in no position to speak of context. If your claim to fame and when completely at a loss of something useful to say is deliver a harangue and fixate on words then do it in the correct section!

best,

 

[Independent]

Also there are no laws against hatred last I checked

Sad that you feel the need to say this.

If you didn't know the first word and denied its existence with such vehemence, then you're in no position to speak of context.

No, I said the sentence doesn't make sense. Which it doesn't.