Free Will In Heaven

[Pygoscelis]

In another thread we recently saw the Problem of Suffering partially answered by the claim that God gave us free will and that must include the free will for us to cause suffering.

If this is true then I have to wonder.... Is there free will in heaven? If so, doesn't that mean there would also have to be suffering in heaven?

I'd like both Muslim and Christian members to answer this.

Are you going to be robots in heaven?

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

I think we are all guessing to some degree when we search for an answer to your question, and it is a question that I have pondered on as well.

In a way; you may have supplied the answer yourself, for those of us who cannot let go of our earthly ways, and continue to be a cause of suffering to others, there is hell. It would be a hell of our own making because we still want to do things our way, the result being that others will suffer. We will end up punishing others and punishing ourselves.

Possible for those who can see God’s way of kindness and loving your neighbour as you love yourself, maybe we will have the freedom to live this life in heaven with God.

In the spirit of searching for a loving and merciful God

Eric

 

[glo]

Pygo, fancy YOU coming up with a question like that!

I think it's a brilliant question and it has certainly made me think.
I'm not sure that I have an answer, but it takes me back to the Christian concept of Paradise - as in the garden of Eden where Adam and Eve walked with God, before free will started to create trouble.

I guess heaven/paradise is like that. Human will aligned with God's will. So perhaps that does away with human free will.

I imagine that once we fully understand God and God's will, we won't desire to go against it. Because it is perfect. Free will only fights against God's will whilst as long as doesn't fully understand it.

(Just my own personal thoughts, so don't anybody go blame the Bible or Christianity or God himself for it! )

 

[M.I.A.]

heaven has been described as having all your wishes fulfilled.

i suppose on the earth it is the very same concept that leads to suffering of others.

the more we pursue our dreams, the more it effects the people around us and further.


if that is the difference between being put into heaven and hell... who we serve.. and how they treat us.

how people are lowered and raised by each other and on what merit.

then there is free will... until you meet someone who is more important.


it is only a worldly concept though.


i would guess every man is king within his own home.

although some are servants even then.


so free will is ultimately a non factor within gods plan.

 

[Muhaba]

There is no suffering in heaven. Heaven won't even have useless talk, let alone useless actions or malicious acts.


They will not hear therein ill speech or commission of sin -
Only a saying: "Peace, peace." (56: 25 - 26)


Why is there suffering on earth? A lot of it is manmade. When mankind says "we don't need religion. we can do what we want. why should we obey God?" etc. etc. the result is human suffering. Just consider God's command not to drink alcohol. Human beings who don't want to be controlled by religion have allowed drinking. and what is the result? How many people die because of liver and other health problems caused by drinking? how many people die in fires caused by drunk people? how many people die because of drinking and driving? If your relative was struck by a car driven by a drunk man, you're quick to blame God, saying "God allowed suffering." Or you become an atheist, saying, "If there were God, then this wouldn't have happened. If God is all-powerful and benevolent, He wouldn't have allowed this," etc etc. But was God responsible? Should He have forced the one not to drink and drive? Should God force people to do as He wants instead of giving them freedom?

So when there is suffering on earth, the correct thing isn't to blame God or refuse the existence of God but to acknowledge God's laws and improve our own selves. God's laws alone prove that God exists. Because God knows what is good for mankind. If all the religious laws are beneficial and going against them cause human suffering, that shows that those laws are true. Since it isn't in human power to give all correct laws, then that means that those laws were not made by humans but by God. And God's laws will always prove to be the right law for human beings.

 

[Hulk]

In another thread we recently saw the Problem of Suffering partially answered by the claim that God gave us free will and that must include the free will for us to cause suffering.

It has been explained in the thread that human beings have been given free choice but they have also been given the ability to think and sent guidance through Prophets(over time) as well as instructions by God on how to live.

The Quran has many reminders for muslims to not cause oppression or injustice. We are also reminded that this world is not without its trials and tribulation. So the argument "If there is a God then why is there suffering." does not stand.

I am merely repeating what has been said in the thread for the benefit of anyone who did not view it. I believe the thread being referred to is this

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/134310943-there-evidence-allahs-existence.html

Is there free will in heaven? If so, doesn't that mean there would also have to be suffering in heaven?

Are you going to be robots in heaven?

I am limited in my knowledge and I do not know if there is free choice or not in heaven. However you must think about who among the people will be in heaven.

"But those who feared their Lord will be driven to Paradise in groups until, when they reach it while its gates have been opened and its keepers say, "Peace be upon you; you have become pure; so enter it to abide eternally therein," [they will enter]."

Quran Sura Az-Zumar Verse 73

​Allahu alam

 

[M.I.A.]

It has been explained in the thread that human beings have been given free choice but they have also been given the ability to think and sent guidance through Prophets(over time) as well as instructions by God on how to live.

The Quran has many reminders for muslims to not cause oppression or injustice. We are also reminded that this world is not without its trials and tribulation. So the argument "If there is a God then why is there suffering." does not stand.

I am merely repeating what has been said in the thread for the benefit of anyone who did not view it. I believe the thread being referred to is this

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/134310943-there-evidence-allahs-existence.html


I am limited in my knowledge and I do not know if there is free choice or not in heaven. However you must think about who among the people will be in heaven.

"But those who feared their Lord will be driven to Paradise in groups until, when they reach it while its gates have been opened and its keepers say, "Peace be upon you; you have become pure; so enter it to abide eternally therein," [they will enter]."

Quran Sura Az-Zumar Verse 73

​Allahu alam

it also says the devil is a clear adversary.

how you interpret that and put it into practice is something that changes the world.

and the people you encounter.


and that is another form of suffering.

fighting the monsters you made yourself.

and that is why there is collateral damage and war, or is it just an alcohol thing?


also where i live most fires recently have been started by the edl... its just a circle of snake eating tail.

 

[جوري]

Why do we always entertain idle speech and vain discourse?

 

[greenhill]

My son commented that it could get boring in heaven. . . he gave his reasons, at least it meant he had listened, thought about it, weighing the pros and cons, to consider the prospect of eternity and came to the conclusion of the possibility of being bored. I told him, off the cuff, how can you be? you can do anything you want, anytime you want, not limited like here, wrong time, no time, too far, too many obstacles, too lazy, tired, etc., Like living at 15 for the rest of your life, but with ALL the conveniences... That, kind of blew his mind. It kind of blew mine too!

Why didn't I become aware of it earlier?..... In this kind of concise manner.... hmmmmm

 

[Pygoscelis]

There is no suffering in heaven. Heaven won't even have useless talk, let alone useless actions or malicious acts.


They will not hear therein ill speech or commission of sin -
Only a saying: "Peace, peace." (56: 25 - 26)

So is that a no then? No free will in heaven?

Why is there suffering on earth? A lot of it is manmade.

Yes, no doubt.

Or you become an atheist, saying, "If there were God, then this wouldn't have happened. If God is all-powerful and benevolent, He wouldn't have allowed this," etc etc. But was God responsible? Should He have forced the one not to drink and drive? Should God force people to do as He wants instead of giving them freedom?

But he doesn't give this freedom in heaven? Only on earth? Is that the answer?

So when there is suffering on earth, the correct thing isn't to blame God or refuse the existence of God but to acknowledge God's laws and improve our own selves.

We can do both. And anyway, this thread isn't for addressing that topic. This thread is about whether or not there is free will in heaven.

 

[Pygoscelis]

I am limited in my knowledge and I do not know if there is free choice or not in heaven. However you must think about who among the people will be in heaven.

"But those who feared their Lord will be driven to Paradise in groups until, when they reach it while its gates have been opened and its keepers say, "Peace be upon you; you have become pure; so enter it to abide eternally therein," [they will enter]."

Quran Sura Az-Zumar Verse 73

​Allahu alam

I'm not sure how to apply that verse to the issue of free will in heaven. Do you see a connection?

 

[Pygoscelis]

I guess heaven/paradise is like that. Human will aligned with God's will. So perhaps that does away with human free will.

I imagine that once we fully understand God and God's will, we won't desire to go against it. Because it is perfect. Free will only fights against God's will whilst as long as doesn't fully understand it.

So if free will causes suffering, and free will only exists because we fail to fully understand God's will (which is perfect), then suffering is a result of God's failure to communicate his message and have it fully understood by his creation? It was a essentially a programming error? But he's said to be all powerful right? Did he mix the communication up on purpose then?

 

[Pygoscelis]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

I think we are all guessing to some degree when we search for an answer to your question, and it is a question that I have pondered on as well.

In a way; you may have supplied the answer yourself, for those of us who cannot let go of our earthly ways, and continue to be a cause of suffering to others, there is hell. It would be a hell of our own making because we still want to do things our way, the result being that others will suffer. We will end up punishing others and punishing ourselves.

Possible for those who can see God’s way of kindness and loving your neighbour as you love yourself, maybe we will have the freedom to live this life in heaven with God.

In the spirit of searching for a loving and merciful God

Eric

This is an interesting take on it. Are you saying that those of us who follow God's will be there with him in heaven because we are doing so, but that we'll have free will the whole time and at any time could go against his way and thereby fall from heaven into hell? So once we get to heaven it isn't forever? Could you climb from hell into heaven by adopting his way while there?

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

free will - sins = heaven

 

[Hulk]

I'm not sure how to apply that verse to the issue of free will in heaven. Do you see a connection?

Is your issue with free will in heaven or whether there will be suffering in heaven because of free will? What does the verse tell you? Do you get absolutely nothing from it?

You asked the question whether there will be free will in heaven and if so wouldn't that mean that there would be suffering. So here I ask you why would there be suffering in heaven just because there is free will? The verse I quoted shows that those who are brought to heaven are those who are God fearing and God conscious.

And mind you that was their state in the temporal world, do you think their faith would increase or decrease in heaven?

I am sure that it may not be easy for you to comprehend as you probably do not understand what it means to be God conscious and maybe you've never met anyone who is like that that you know of. They are people who are always mindful of God and that is reflected in the state of their heart. Those who fast will have an idea of what it means. If they rinse their mouth they are very careful not to swallow any of the water because they know they are fasting. It doesn't matter if no one else would known't if they were to swallow a bit because they are not doing it for anyone other than God.

This is part of being God conscious.

So it doesn't make sense for you to think that if there is free choice in heaven there will certainly be suffering. Because those who are in heaven are those who are God conscious in this world, and being in heaven their faith would obviously increase (to the point where there is no doubt at all).

 

[Ahmad H]

In another thread we recently saw the Problem of Suffering partially answered by the claim that God gave us free will and that must include the free will for us to cause suffering.

If this is true then I have to wonder.... Is there free will in heaven? If so, doesn't that mean there would also have to be suffering in heaven?

Of course there is free will. But people will be in front of God, and they cannot hide anything from Him. So why would anyone do anything against Him there? Think of this when wondering about good and evil in the Hereafter.

Besides, good and evil exist in this world. In Heaven, things are lawful there which were not lawful here on earth, such as wine, silk (which is unlawful for men on earth), having more than four wives, etc. So evil is wiped out. There is no chance of it there.

In Heaven, people will have all that they need and more. They will have everything they wish for. Evil comes out of man's desires. What desires are left when everything is fulfilled and you can get what you want? Evil comes out of having desires and trying to fulfill them. When there is no avenue in which to do evil, and you have gone through being purified by God, then you cannot possibly do evil.

Furthermore, no one will be like robots there. Prayers can still be done, and further spiritual progress can be made in Heaven. People will sing God's praises and enjoy themselves to the fullest. You can pursue whatever you want there. This is why it is called Paradise, because nothing is deficient there.

The least of what a person can have in Heaven, is that of the man who comes out of Hell last, and he eventually finds that God has given him what is equal to the Heavens and the earth and even more than that. Imagine, the whole universe and more! Probably multiple universes since we don't know the full meaning of Heavens either by inference or observational knowledge.

We will have in Heaven what the eye has never seen, our ears have never heard of, nor has the mind ever conceived of its like before. So this is beyond what we know of pleasure. It is pleasure beyond known pleasure. Things which we don't know of, but they are so great that we never thought of them before. This is far from us being robots.

 

[glo]

So if free will causes suffering, and free will only exists because we fail to fully understand God's will (which is perfect), then suffering is a result of God's failure to communicate his message and have it fully understood by his creation?

I would say it is more a case of us not hearing right or simply not wanting to hear and do our own thing instead.
You know that feeling when you know what would be the right thing to do in a given situation ... and then you go and do something else anyway?

[As for the original statement, (and I don't want to start that discussion here again - it has clearly been had elsewhere ...), I don't think human sin causes all suffering, but humans messing things up is certainly a big contributor.]

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

Right from the very beginning, I believe that God’s intentions for mankind was justice and kindness for all people. He created each and everyone of us with that purpose in mind, by giving us not only the first commandment, but the greatest commandments.

God is all powerful, he does not need our love for his own benefit, he needs our love in a way that the most disadvantaged people on Earth will feel loved.

Mathew 25
31 ‘When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 ‘Then the King will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was ill and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.”
37 ‘Then the righteous will answer him, “Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison and go to visit you?”
40 ‘The King will reply, “Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.”
41 ‘Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was ill and in prison and you did not look after me.”
44 ‘They also will answer, “Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or ill or in prison, and did not help you?”
45 ‘He will reply, “Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.”
46 ‘Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.’

If we could freely and willingly love God and love our neighbour as we love ourselves, this world would be a land of justice and peace. God gave each of us a conscious, and we know in our own hearts right from wrong.

God’s idea of justice is geared towards the poor and oppressed, the disadvantaged. Scholars have gone through the Bible and highlighted about two thousand passages that refer to these topics, they have called it ‘The Justice and Poverty Bible’

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

 

[Tyrion]

Why do we always entertain idle speech and vain discourse?

Speak for yourself. You say that, yet your presence is felt in almost every thread here... If you really think this stuff is a waste of time, then please stop posting.

 

[Tyrion]

If this is true then I have to wonder.... Is there free will in heaven? If so, doesn't that mean there would also have to be suffering in heaven?

Questions like these always interest me, since I've thought a lot about what it could mean for us humans to be an a supposedly perfect place like paradise. It seems to me that if we are to truly be ourselves in heaven/paradise, then free will is necessary since it defines so much of what/who we are now. Without free will in heaven, we wouldn't really resemble ourselves much. (In fact, that issue of "will we really be us?" comes up a lot when I think about this kind of stuff, but that's another topic entirely..) But then there are questions like those you bring up, and I'm not sure what the answers would be. Perhaps those who make it into heaven and see what truths lie there will just naturally no longer be inclined to sin? I dont' know. I just know that thinking about this stuff is really interesting, as well as a little perplexing. :