from a few days ago in Egypt-- enjoy

[WarriorforMarie]

I am not a moderator here, just a member, but I object to the way in which non-Muslims are relatively free on an Islamic discussion board to meddle in our political and economic affairs. Since this forum is about Islam and its expected audience is primarily Muslims, I don't really understand why we as Muslims are constantly having to be subjected to arguing our own political affairs with non-Muslims on our board. If a non-Muslim wants to come here to sincerely learn about Islam either for their own education purposes or because they are considering conversion or because their spouse or friend has converted and they want to learn about Islam to be supportive I am fine with that.

Yet there are people here who demonstrate no intention to learn anything about Islam as they never ask any religious questions about Islam and never post in any threads about Islam. Instead, they show up solely on political and current event threads to argue with Muslims about our Islamic views on events and situations that are affecting us. Whether non-Muslims enter our mosques or go online to an Islamic board I feel their welcome should be extended to cover their own education on Islam and an inclusion in the Islamic community as a non-Muslim only if they demonstrate respect towards Islam and Muslims. I don't feel that non-Muslims should be welcome in mosques or on online Islamic discussion boards to dictate and control our politics, laws, and religious matters. It is like being invited to someone else's house for dinner and then telling them how to run their own household.

I am not a moderator here, just a member, but I object to the way in which non-Muslims are relatively free on an Islamic discussion board to meddle in our political and economic affairs. Since this forum is about Islam and its expected audience is primarily Muslims, I don't really understand why we as Muslims are constantly having to be subjected to arguing our own political affairs with non-Muslims on our board. If a non-Muslim wants to come here to sincerely learn about Islam either for their own education purposes or because they are considering conversion or because their spouse or friend has converted and they want to learn about Islam to be supportive I am fine with that.

Yet there are people here who demonstrate no intention to learn anything about Islam as they never ask any religious questions about Islam and never post in any threads about Islam. Instead, they show up solely on political and current event threads to argue with Muslims about our Islamic views on events and situations that are affecting us. Whether non-Muslims enter our mosques or go online to an Islamic board I feel their welcome should be extended to cover their own education on Islam and an inclusion in the Islamic community as a non-Muslim only if they demonstrate respect towards Islam and Muslims. I don't feel that non-Muslims should be welcome in mosques or on online Islamic discussion boards to dictate and control our politics, laws, and religious matters. It is like being invited to someone else's house for dinner and then telling them how to run their own household.

Isn't it possible that having a variety of opinions is a good thing though? Isn't it important to consider all perspectives? All points of view? There are non-Muslims who can contribute quite a bit. I myself am a political scientist with a specialization in comparative politics. If you ever want an opinion about plurality voting systems versus proportional representation I am always available! :shade:

 

[faithandpeace]

There is no separation of church and state in Islam. The tenets of Islam are not formulated based on "democracy." Just because some "Muslims" believe in non-Islamic things and then call that "Islam" does not mean that by majority rule Islam is now modernized, changed, or adapted in any way. Islam is based on the Qur'an and the Sunnah and while it can be applied different ways in different societies and different circumstances, Islam itself is not changed. Even if 90% of Muslims push secular government and try to change Islamic principles, values, tenets, etc. that does not change Islam. It means that what they are doing is haram at best and apostasy from Islam at worse. Quantity of Muslims may be important but quality is more important. Just because a bunch of "Muslims" call their brand of Islam "progressive Islam" and support same-sex marriage, secular government, and gender mixing does not make what they do Islam. The Western governments and regimes in the Islamic world can oppose Sharia as much as they want but that is not Islam. Muslims want Sharia. Got it?

 

[WarriorforMarie]

Not sure how you arrived to that conclusion from what I'd written? did you google sykes picot and read about it? secularization was imposed by force and it is still imposed by force. Five pillars are just that pillars upon which Islam stands.. can you have a building made of just pillars? like holding a mug with nothing inside... there's no point to that and it isn't my consideration .. as I stated before I only deal with what I see and deals with what the hearts hide!

I was just trying to return to the substance of my original commentary. You seem to be having trouble following precisely what I'm talking about. If you are interested in learning more about some of the concepts I'm talking about I can recommend some books and articles that deal with the subject matter. I think the modernization and political development literature would be a good foundation.

 

[جوري]

I was just trying to return to the substance of my original commentary. You seem to be having trouble following precisely what I'm talking about. If you are interested in learning more about some of the concepts I'm talking about I can recommend some books and articles that deal with the subject matter. I think the modernization and political development literature would be a good foundation.

I am not interested in your concepts. You posed questions and I answered them and that is all there is to it!

 

[WarriorforMarie]

There is no separation of church and state in Islam. The tenets of Islam are not formulated based on "democracy." Just because some "Muslims" believe in non-Islamic things and then call that "Islam" does not mean that by majority rule Islam is now modernized, changed, or adapted in any way. Islam is based on the Qur'an and the Sunnah and while it can be applied different ways in different societies and different circumstances, Islam itself is not changed. Even if 90% of Muslims push secular government and try to change Islamic principles, values, tenets, etc. that does not change Islam. It means that what they are doing is haram at best and apostasy from Islam at worse. Quantity of Muslims may be important but quality is more important. Just because a bunch of "Muslims" call their brand of Islam "progressive Islam" and support same-sex marriage, secular government, and gender mixing does not make what they do Islam. The Western governments and regimes in the Islamic world can oppose Sharia as much as they want but that is not Islam. Muslims want Sharia. Got it?

Well, what sort of political order does Islam propose?

 

[جوري]

Well, what sort of political order does Islam propose?

This is a judicial matter that needs schooling and you want it distilled in a paragraph? How is that sane?

 

[faithandpeace]

Islamic environments as far as I'm concerned are not about "neutrality." We don't have to be neutral on anything. Non-Muslims do not get to come into our mosques and tell us how to dress, what to eat, how to pray, or what our laws are. That is a good way to find yourself unwelcome. Frankly, I wish the same would apply here. If you want to ask questions about our political, economic, legal, or other views on current events that is fine. Coming here for the sole purpose of preaching your non-Muslim politics to us (Muslims) is what I object to. I don't want to be preached at by non-Muslims on a Muslim board.

I don't care about anyone's political science degree. American and European political thought does not dictate what Islamic thought is. Many Muslims do not live in Europe or Canada or the United States and do not want these political models shoved at them in opposition to an Islamic model of law and policy.

Futhermore, Muslims are not required to listen to "all points of view." We aren't required to be "neutral" on anything. Opinions in many cases are actually irrelevant. It doesn't matter what our opinions are on Islam, the Qur'an, and the Sunnah other than the fact that we have submitted to its message and accept it and insha'Allah try to follow it the best we can. Even if there is something in Islam that I am having trouble understanding or that I find difficult, it really doesn't matter what my opinion on it is. I accept it is commanded by Allah (swt) and I shall seek insha'Allah any needed clarification on it so that I can try to implement it in the best way possible regardless how difficult that may be. Islam is not a democratic system based on the equality of opinions.

 

[sister herb]

Salam alaykum

Dear sister faithandpeace; I don´t see anything strange if non-muslims take part discussions in here. How even this situation in Egypt for example would be only affair of muslims, when all Egyptians are not muslims (minority of coptics is about 10% of the population). Similarly; we as muslims have to deal with non-muslims in our every-day life (unless if you live in Mecca - most of us don´t live there) as our neighbors, friends, family members, co-workers at jobs, students in the school etc. If we can´t discuss peacefully with them even in the discussion forum (islamic or non-islamic ones), how we could do it in the real life? If you feel they try to dictate discussions here, you can tell it as your opinion to them and explain why you feel so. I have seen that most of non-muslim members behave very respected ways in here.

 

[WarriorforMarie]

I am not interested in your concepts. You posed questions and I answered them and that is all there is to it!

I apologize if my questions have tried your patience. I am sorry, but I am vessel that is needing to be filled with information. If you are not interested in political science concepts I will not bore you with them, I am sorry. It is just that I thought that if you understood better the question I was posing you could help me out by giving a more comprehensive answer.

You see, I am interested in whether structures matter more in state and society change or if agents are more important. The answer to this no easily answerable question could give us insight into what the future is for Egypt and perhaps for the Muslim Middle East in general.

 

[WarriorforMarie]

This is a judicial matter that needs schooling and you want it distilled in a paragraph? How is that sane?

Please, do not feel obligated to limit any answer to one paragraph. The more information and detail the more helpful it would be for me to understand.

 

[جوري]

but I am vessel that is needing to be filled with information

That is something learned from books and through schooling..not on forums-- if you're interested in Islamic law and politics and jurisprudence then you'll have to be properly schooled for that. This isn't even my area of expertise to feign that the paragraph I give if I should sum it up would be the most accurate response. If you've specific questions you're welcome to ask them and I'll do my best to answer. You're not welcome however to presume what I am thinking or understanding. I don't like verbiage- as for the future of the ME, then my views are from a religious point of view if you're interested in eschatology which I don't think is relevant to the politics you're studying or interested in studying.

 

[faithandpeace]

I see it as an issue of intent. While I don't have the ability to see inside people's hearts, I find it suspicious when someone comes to an Islamic board as a non-Muslim, asks no questions about Islam with a sincere intent to learn, and instead only shows up on threads involving current events for the purpose of preaching their political ideas at us.

The same applies to what is happening in the Middle East. U.S. and other soldiers come to Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere in the Middle East/S. Asia and decide to dictate to Muslims living there what kind of freedom they need, what kind of culture they need and don't need. Afghan women are told to take off their burqas, niqabs, and even hijabs! People are told they need democracy instead of a Sharia system. Outsiders (non-Muslims) coming to Muslim lands telling Muslims how to think and how to live. Then of course people are arrested and killed when they resist.

I came to this board because I had studied Islam and was considering conversion. I converted rather soon after arriving here and now I am here to learn and grow in Islam with the help of Muslims. I am also here to discuss current events and issues that affect Muslims as I am now a Muslim and part of the ummah. I have not prioritized da'wah to non-Muslims because I am too new to Islam to be able to have sufficient education to sufficiently teach non-Muslims about Islam. Current events particularly events that involve war and violence are very sensitive issues as innocents (Muslim and non-Muslim) are being injured and killed. I can understand non-Muslims wanting to hear from an Islamic perspective on these issues especially as non-Muslims as we have seen in the Egypt conflict are also the victims of violence. That doesn't mean I want to be preached at by non-Muslims. I do not want to be told by a non-Muslim what I need to think, feel, and believe about Islam on an Islamic forum unless it is on a da'wa thread!

 

[faithandpeace]

Please, do not feel obligated to limit any answer to one paragraph. The more information and detail the more helpful it would be for me to understand.

First, why don't you tell us about your background, what you do know about Islam, and what specifically you want to learn. You haven't provided any information whatsoever with what has even brought you to an Islamic forum. Since you are a non-Muslim, it makes sense for you to learn the basics of Islam first, then the intermediate stuff, then advanced. But you haven't told us what you know already and what you want to learn. You show up here and then dictate to us what to think about political affairs that involve our brothers, sisters, and children being killed. How do you think that makes some of us feel?

 

[WarriorforMarie]

Islamic environments as far as I'm concerned are not about "neutrality." We don't have to be neutral on anything. Non-Muslims do not get to come into our mosques and tell us how to dress, what to eat, how to pray, or what our laws are. That is a good way to find yourself unwelcome. Frankly, I wish the same would apply here. If you want to ask questions about our political, economic, legal, or other views on current events that is fine. Coming here for the sole purpose of preaching your non-Muslim politics to us (Muslims) is what I object to. I don't want to be preached at by non-Muslims on a Muslim board.

I don't care about anyone's political science degree. American and European political thought does not dictate what Islamic thought is. Many Muslims do not live in Europe or Canada or the United States and do not want these political models shoved at them in opposition to an Islamic model of law and policy.

Futhermore, Muslims are not required to listen to "all points of view." We aren't required to be "neutral" on anything. Opinions in many cases are actually irrelevant. It doesn't matter what our opinions are on Islam, the Qur'an, and the Sunnah other than the fact that we have submitted to its message and accept it and insha'Allah try to follow it the best we can. Even if there is something in Islam that I am having trouble understanding or that I find difficult, it really doesn't matter what my opinion on it is. I accept it is commanded by Allah (swt) and I shall seek insha'Allah any needed clarification on it so that I can try to implement it in the best way possible regardless how difficult that may be. Islam is not a democratic system based on the equality of opinions.

Please, I am sorry. I am not attempting to preach non-Muslim politics to Muslims. I am trying to understand things better, both by exploring case studies for my research, but also by getting a better understanding of Islamic thought in regards to politics. It is very different for me you see, the idea that someone's politics and religion are interrelated. I come from a background in which one's religion may influence their politics, but it does not determine policy. I do not know what any of the prophets would advocate in terms solar subsidies or trade policy. So please understand that it seems strange to me that someone's politics would negate their religious affiliation. I wish to understand what concepts of Islam these are from.

I am not proposing American political models for the Islamic world. There is even a body of literature that would propose that the Islamic world is not ready for complex versions of democracy. I am not sure I believe this, honestly I do not have a strong opinion one way or another.

Also, please I apologize if I caused offense. I was not suggesting that Muslims are required to listen to "all points of view." I just think it is important to try to keep an open mind because others might have perspectives that can enhance our understanding.

I am just trying to understand. You see, I have heard that Islam is not democracy or other things. What is political Islam, exactly?

 

[WarriorforMarie]

That is something learned from books and through schooling..not on forums-- if you're interested in Islamic law and politics and jurisprudence then you'll have to be properly schooled for that. This isn't even my area of expertise to feign that the paragraph I give if I should sum it up would be the most accurate response. If you've specific questions you're welcome to ask them and I'll do my best to answer. You're not welcome however to presume what I am thinking or understanding. I don't like verbiage- as for the future of the ME, then my views are from a religious point of view if you're interested in eschatology which I don't think is relevant to the politics you're studying or interested in studying.

Can you recommend any good books on Islamic politics?

 

[جوري]

I can yes but br. Amirssab who is also a mod here I believe is very studied in the matter he can recommend better books:









Shari'a: Theory, Practice, Transformations

by Wael B. Hallaq
4.36 of 5 stars 4.36 · rating details · 11 ratings · 4 reviews
In recent years, Islamic law, or Shari'a, has been appropriated as a tool of modernity in the Muslim world and in the West and has become highly politicised in consequence. Wael Hallaq's magisterial overview of Shari'a sets the record straight by examining the doctrines and practices of Islamic law within the context of its history, and by showing how it functioned within...more

 

[جوري]

by the way I deliberately chose a non Muslim writer for you so you'd get as unbiased a view of it as possible!

 

[جوري]

if you want books from an Islamic perspective then I'd recommend the entire series by m.m. al-azami .. as it is all intertwined and will cover more than the politics but the texts themselves and give historical backgrounds as well comparative study with other religions.. it is up to you though and I think as a westerner you'd probably prefer to stick with a Non-Islamic interpretation to Islamic law and politics..

 

[WarriorforMarie]

You show up here and then dictate to us what to think about political affairs that involve our brothers, sisters, and children being killed.

I am sorry that you feel that I was dictating to you what to think. What was the thing I said that sounded this way so that I could avoid saying it in the future?

 

[WarriorforMarie]

if you want books from an Islamic perspective then I'd recommend the entire series by m.m. al-azami .. as it is all intertwined and will cover more than the politics but the texts themselves and give historical backgrounds as well comparative study with other religions.. it is up to you though and I think as a westerner you'd probably prefer to stick with a Non-Islamic interpretation to Islamic law and politics..

Thank you for your recommendations.