Fresh Attacks on Niqab in UK Government

[Pygoscelis]

We haven't got to this stage yet. Let's first focus on the present hypocrisy of those who claim to allow freedom of expression whilst considering banning the Niqab.

I agree. That too is hypocritical.

Moreover, clothing that has a religious significance tends to be regarded differently than other clothing, hence it is commonly exempt where other things might not be permitted. So the reasoning, purpose and impact of Niqab is totally different to something like a bikini, and it makes sense to regard them separately.

Only if you want to give special treatment to religion, which is something I strongly oppose in secular society. We should neither target religious garments as especially improper (as they appear to be doing) or allow them where such coverings would not otherwise be allowed (ie, driver's license photos).

 

[Pygoscelis]

Re: Spotlight: Anti-Niqab Agenda

What people need to do is stop accepting what media tells them and go talk to actual muslims. That's what bought me here originally, following 9/11. I have found about half of the media based preconceptions to be flatly wrong.

Yes, the niqab is a powerful image to western eyes. Even without the religious aspects of it, a person covering their face is going to make some people uneasy. Add to that the religious trappings of a distant religion the media tells you is violent and volatile, and back that up with news stories about terrorists and riots over cartoons of all things, while not receiving any news or contact with peaceful and rational muslims, and it isn't surprising how people react. Its a serious PR problem.

Even after interacting with you folks on here for years, I still feel uneasy around women in niqab. I avoid them if I can and only talk to them if I must, and I tend to think they appreciate that as much as I do. To me they project an image not of violence or repression, but of hyper sensitive religiousity, and I figure if I speak to them I will probably say something they will be offended by. I think a lot of liberals like myself feel that way, which in itself is a bit of a problem, but not on the same level as the "burn a quran" conservative christian types.

 

[Ahmad H]

Re: Spotlight: Anti-Niqab Agenda

Even after interacting with you folks on here for years, I still feel uneasy around women in niqab. I avoid them if I can and only talk to them if I must, and I tend to think they appreciate that as much as I do. To me they project an image not of violence or repression, but of hyper sensitive religiousity, and I figure if I speak to them I will probably say something they will be offended by. I think a lot of liberals like myself feel that way, which in itself is a bit of a problem, but not on the same level as the "burn a quran" conservative christian types.

I'm Muslim and I avoid women in Niqabs also. Yes, there is definitely a hyper sensitivity issue that you will find with women who wear Niqab. Not all of them, but most, yes. This is the same reason I completely avoid them and resist talking to them when I can just because I feel they become uneasy. So I know what you mean.

On the other hand, women without Niqab make me uneasy too. That's to be expected though, considering Muslim males are to avoid women as much as is possible.

 

[Muhammad]

I've moved the discussion posts from the other thread into here so it's easier to keep track.

Only if you want to give special treatment to religion, which is something I strongly oppose in secular society. We should neither target religious garments as especially improper (as they appear to be doing) or allow them where such coverings would not otherwise be allowed (ie, driver's license photos).

It doesn't have to be seen as special treatment; it is simply an acknowledgement of people's beliefs. 'Society' can choose to be understanding, diverse and find ways to work around issues, or it can become increasingly intolerant and rigid to the point that it loses neutrality. Ultimately, we hold very different views about the purpose and meaning of life, hence it is expected that we disagree over what should and should not be acceptable in society.

Even after interacting with you folks on here for years, I still feel uneasy around women in niqab. I avoid them if I can and only talk to them if I must, and I tend to think they appreciate that as much as I do. To me they project an image not of violence or repression, but of hyper sensitive religiousity, and I figure if I speak to them I will probably say something they will be offended by.

Perhaps the unease is more a case of being faced with something you are not accustomed to. Allaah :swt: has taught believing men and women to lower their gaze, guard their chastity and maintain modesty. Amongst Muslims, it is normal to avoid approaching women unnecessarily. In western culture, this is something becoming increasingly alien, and Muslim women perhaps feel equally uneasy when in the presence of male strangers with whom they are expected to mingle with, not to mention the stares and impolite reactions that they face on a daily basis. But the notion that they are 'hypersensitive' (I assume this means they are more likely to be offended) is perhaps a stereotype. Those wearing the Niqab are just as diverse as the rest of society and as such, will consist of so many different personalities, backgrounds, levels of faith, education and types of occupation. One cannot judge or expect the same reaction or likelihood of being offended from them just because they have chosen to put on a veil. You can find women wearing Niqab who are very vocal, participating in public debates and lectures, and many often welcome the chance to explain their beliefs to others.

 

[Pygoscelis]

It doesn't have to be seen as special treatment; it is simply an acknowledgement of people's beliefs. 'Society' can choose to be understanding, diverse and find ways to work around issues, or it can become increasingly intolerant and rigid to the point that it loses neutrality. Ultimately, we hold very different views about the purpose and meaning of life, hence it is expected that we disagree over what should and should not be acceptable in society.

All I ask is that we be treated equally and that you get no special treatment, for good or for bad, because of a belief you hold. It doesn't matter to me WHY you want to do X. If there is no good reason to outlaw X, then you should be allowed to. And if you can do X and your doing X doesn't benefit all of us more than me doing X, then we should both be allowed to do X. If you can cover your face, then I should be allowed to as well. And if there is no good reason to stop me from covering my face, then you shouldn't be stopped from doing so. Its pretty simple.

 

[ILuvAllah]

Oh thank God I'm leaving UK soon insha Allah. I would never consider living in a non muslim nation anymore.

 

[Taabuu]

Re: The Niqab

I personally dont seem to understand why people claim that the Muslim women are being "forced" and "oppressed" to cover their bodies, while a Christian nun is considered "pure" and "pious". If you look at the way a Muslimah covers her body and a Nun covers her body it is the SAME. Every part of the Muslimah's body and the nun body is covered maybe not in the same manner but those parts being the hair, neck, arms, legs,etc. they are covered.





So why isn't the Nun looked at as being oppressed? And why is the Muslimah not looked at as being pious and true to Islam?
It doesnt make sense and look at the Christain's imagery of the Virgin Mary (Maryam)


does she not wear hijab?
I just dont understand nuns and Muslimah both cover so if you are saying that a Muslimah is oppressed because she follows her religion and covers her body then it is only fair that you say a Christian nun is also oppressed because she too is following her religion and covering her body....right?

I am not attacking Christanity I just want people to look and understand that the Nun's and the Muslimah's attire are basically the same. Just because one is Christian and the other Muslim isnt a excuse because both are covered in the same manner and both are following their religion.
With that being said why in society is the Muslimah looked at as oppressed while the Nun isnt? Does that make sense?

 

[Independent]

Re: The Niqab

I am not attacking Christanity I just want people to look and understand that the Nun's and the Muslimah's attire are basically the same. Just because one is Christian and the other Muslim isnt a excuse because both are covered in the same manner and both are following their religion.

The key difference is that nuns are a small group of women who have individually committed themselves to God and who live in seclusion, thereby renouncing marriage and the world in general. Taking the veil is a minor part of this broader commitment. There is no pressure on women in general to take the veil, not least because nuns are not seen very much on the streets.

Whereas the niquab is proposed for women in general. Because of this, with the niquab the issue arises of whether women feel pressurised by their society either to cover up or not cover up. It seems to me that in different societies women are pressured both ways - sometimes to cover up, sometimes not.

 

[ardianto]

Re: The Niqab

I personally dont seem to understand why people claim that the Muslim women are being "forced" and "oppressed" to cover their bodies,

I am not sure if non-Muslim in Indonesia think that wearing hijab (headscarves) is coercion because they can see by themselves that Ulama in Indonesia do not implement "coerce policy" but "motivation policy".

It's based on simple thought, if a woman is coerced to were hijab, she would wear it, but when she get a chance she will remove her hijab. If a woman is motivated, then she wear hijab with her own conciousness and would not remove it.

This is the secret why hijab is popular in Indonesia now, different than in 70's and 80's.

My wife need few years to decide to wear hijab with several consultation with me just to ask did she still look beautiful if she wear hijab?. She was motivated because women among her started to wear hijab, one by one.

But with different culture, maybe different mindset.

I understand if people in the West think that wear hijab is coercion. In this forum I've read post from a student which he saw a female student who came to school wore hijab, but then removed it when her father gone. And read post #6 by Observer, first paragraph.

 

[سيف الله]

Salaam

An update. Another response to the issue.

Shohana Khan’s letter to Sarah Wollaston MP regarding her article on a veil ban

Dear Ms Wollaston,

I write in response to your comment in the Telegraph newspaper dated 15th September 2013, entitled, “Veil debate should be a wake-up call for feminism”.

You make some key claims about the veil, which I felt deserved a little bit of discussion – to highlight that there is more to the other side than ‘nonsense‘, as you claim.

Women are forced to wear it

There is no campaign group of closet ex-veil Muslims, no Facebook page trying to raise awareness of an epidemic of coercive veiling. It’s quite simple - scores of young veil wearing Muslim women, like the ones who had the ban overturned due to the pressure they put on the Birmingham college, wear it out of their own accord. Apart from the fact that not all girls start wearing it at 13 anyway, it is strange that this discussion is not had about straightened hair, makeup or the length of the school skirt, or how across secondary schools in the UK today, 13-year-olds are adopting the ‘beauty ideal’ because they feel they have to. That is if we really want to talk about coercion in how girls dress.

The veil takes away a woman’s equality

As you claim, the fact that a veil wearing woman dresses differently to how men dress, means she is repressed. So the question we must ask is, if a woman dresses differently to a man, does this mean repression?

The fact that dresses, skirts and ladies handbags are not the usual content of a male wardrobe I’m sure does not ring alarm bells for yourself. Difference in dress code between men and women is accepted and does not alert to women being seen as chained to a life of repression. So why would this apply to the dress code of a different community?

The veil inhibits communication

For those who advocate that anyone wearing the veil cannot be communicated with properly, I would imagine would also uphold a total ban of all type of social media, email correspondence or phone communication because these very normal forms of communication that we use today rely on our ability to communicate without seeing the others’ face.

Interaction and community cohesion if one thing we have learnt, is not built by whether you see someone’s face or not, but whether you uphold respect, kindness and good neighbourly qualities in your actions with the wider community. Community tensions exist across the UK, but can the veil honestly be put down as the cause of any of them? As for the issue about identity and security – There is no real conundrum here, Muslim women can meet these needs in a female environment.

The veil makes a woman ‘out of sight’

If we mean women’s physical bodies and faces are ‘out of sight’, then yes there is not any dispute about that. But the bigger question is, is that all we really mean and are concerned about, with regards to the presence of women in society? As that would be very worrying.

The feminist struggle you evoked in the beginning of your comment, from the onset was set upon moving away from the view of women as physical prizes and possessions to the real participation of women in public life. Veil wearing women would fiercely argue that the veil has actually stopped society short from judging them by the way they look, over what they think; enabling them to participate more fully in society.
The truth is, that although Western politicians across Europe have like dominoes one after the other, felt it necessary to come to the saviour of veil wearing Muslim women, Muslim women have not let out any cry demanding they be saved.

However, we know there is a cry – a growing one across Western societies of people who have begun to view Muslims and their values as threateningly averse to the secular liberal norm, even though they are not the only community with ‘different’ practices. We can all sit back and ponder upon how and from where, this cry is being fed and fuelled.

Finally, your concern about the need for a wake-up call for women, I would say is not at all incorrect. A wake up call about the real coercive idea in society which is robbing women of being valued for their mind and their abilities, robbing them of their self-esteem and self-worth, robbing them of real choice about what they want to be, is more than needed. This idea is the corrosive beauty image perpetuated through the media, entertainment, beauty industries that has been proved as plaguing the lives of young women today. Although how you look is perceived to be a choice a woman makes, the very specific image of beauty plastered across magazines, billboards and TV today has built a standard that women young and old, all must aspire to and are measured against.

Campaigners insist that the looking beautiful is ‘empowering’ for women. Only in the same way perhaps as an invisibility cloak over your mind, but if that is the case why is it not worn by men? Such nonsense hides the reality that in cultures where it is not a choice but a compulsion, women have no meaningful power whatever.
We must be bold in resisting those who would allow the beauty image to masquerade as personal freedom. In my opinion, to allow it in our schools harms women by colluding with a view that they should be only physically in sight; that attitude has no place in an open modern society.

Before I end, I confess to borrowing the two paragraphs above from your own piece on the veil that I am responding to. Because to be fair I felt most the points you made about the struggle of women were relevant – you just chose the wrong focus.

It is the idea which last year caused the number of hospital admissions for anorexia to rise by 16%, and the year before this included nearly a hundred five to seven year olds worried about the way they looked, which needs urgent attention. It is this attitude and view, which women are crying out about and want liberating from. It is this attitude and view, not the small piece of cloth a tiny minority of women in the UK wear, which in a society that seeks to liberate women, should have no place at all.

Yours sincerely,

Shohana Khan

Women’s Media Representative
Hizb ut-Tahrir Britain

http://www.hizb.org.uk/current-affairs/shohana-khans-letter-to-sarah-wallaston-mp-regarding-her-article-on-a-veil-ban

 

[Muhammad]

Re: The Niqab

Because of this, with the niquab the issue arises of whether women feel pressurised by their society either to cover up or not cover up. It seems to me that in different societies women are pressured both ways - sometimes to cover up, sometimes not.

Do you think it's right for others to be assuming what pressures Muslim women are facing?

 

[Independent]

Re: The Niqab

Do you think it's right for others to be assuming what pressures Muslim women are facing?

Some women say this for themselves directly, I have no reason to disbelieve them. And on the other hand many others say they like it, and i don't disbelieve them either. I don't think i am making an unfair assumption in either direction. Why would I refuse to believe one group but not the other?

Edit: Re-reading your post, perhaps you mean some of the critics in the media, not me in particular. If so, then i would sometimes agree with you that they overstep the mark. It is difficult for the average western country to understand the motivations behind this choice of dress, although awareness is of course on the increase. Personally, so long as there is genuinely no duress either way, I don't mind what people do.

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

I meant in general, referring to anyone other than the Muslim women themselves. Many people (in the newspapers/internet/interviews etc.) are making comments and assumptions about the veil or Hijab as if they know more than the people who actually wear it. Yes it's true that some women have said/indicated they are forced to wear it, but it doesn't mean a ban is required. Women may be coerced to do a lot of things, yet a ban does not seem to be suggested for anything else. Going back to the comparison with nuns, even in the case where a Muslim woman declares she is wearing the veil out of her own choice and happiness, people raise objections that she is extreme, creating a barrier, etc.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Going back to the comparison with nuns, even in the case where a Muslim woman declares she is wearing the veil out of her own choice and happiness, people raise objections that she is extreme, creating a barrier, etc.

She is creating a barrier. Literally.

 

[Muhammad]

Yes, one could say it is a barrier that wards off evil. But those in the opposition are coming from a different perspective. I was saying that people will find other reasons to object. If nuns are respected for their 'barrier', why not Muslim women?

 

[ardianto]

She is creating a barrier. Literally.

She is creating a barrier for herself, not for you. Then, what's your problem? you can still interact with other people.

I understand what you feel. I always smile and greet my customers, males and females. However, I felt hesitate to greet a niqabi who came to my office because I worried I would be regarded as 'indecent'. But, what's the problem? there are many other customers who I can greet.

But actually the niqabis are not always 'rigid' and religiously sensitive. I have a niqabi friend who was my classmate in school. When the first time I meet her again after she wear niqab I felt hesitate to greet her. But then she greeted me. Now sometime I meet her and usually we talk friendly as two old friends.

 

[Independent]

Going back to the comparison with nuns, even in the case where a Muslim woman declares she is wearing the veil out of her own choice and happiness, people raise objections that she is extreme, creating a barrier, etc

Again, apart from this superficial similarity in pictures, i really don't think the nun comparison is very strong. Nuns represent a truly tiny percentage of the population. Depending on where you live, you could go through your whole life and never meet one. So they exert no social pressure to conform whatsoever. On the contrary, their life choice can sometimes be challenged by the lay population and (in many cases) their families would oppose their choice.

What's more, there is a kind of 'equality' with their male equivalent - monks. Both have renounced worldy goods and marriage, both wear gowns, and both have hood-like headgear although monks don't necessarily wear them up all the time.

There are things you can criticise about western attitudes to the niquab, but this isn't it. If anything, in some quarters nuns may experience a similar prejudice.

 

[faithandpeace]

Assalamu alaikum.

What some non-Muslims and even Muslims do not understand is that Islam is not simply a religion that "you do" once a week in a closed-door building. It is a way of life that encompasses all aspects of both public and private life. I know very well what the anti-niqab and anti-hijab agendas are about. The agenda is not about protecting women as they would want you to believe but about fostering an environment and culture where women do not have a right to privacy.

Hijab is not a choice according to Islam. It is required in any place where marriage-eligible men can see women. It is a choice whether a Muslim woman wants to obey Allah (swt) and wear hijab or whether she disobeys Allah (swt) by not wearing it. She then has the choice to repent for her sins and make the proper intention to wear hijab in the future and ask Allah (swt) for help at fulfilling this requirement.

Niqab is an area of some debate among the scholars whether it is required in the same way that hijab is required or whether it is simply recommended but not required or whether it is required in certain circumstances such as to avoid unwanted attention from men that is already occurring or is about to occur. Again, it is a choice whether a woman wants to wear niqab to obey the command of Allah (swt) or to please Allah (swt) with a voluntary act of extra worship for something not seen as required but something that would please Allah (swt) or to not wear it for whatever valid or invalid reasons she has as a Muslim.

That being said, men do not have a "right" to see women's faces. Men do not have a "right" to see women's hair and neck. Men do not have a "right" to see women's shoulders, arms, and legs. Men do not have a "right" to see the rest of a woman's body. The same cultures and nations that often promote the phony notion of "freedom" are often the same cultures and nations that work overtime to take women's freedom away when it comes to personal privacy. Women in western nations and cultures are often rewarded with various opportunities based on how much of their bodies they publicize and how strongly they thrust themselves into public attention. It is not a secret that women wearing more makeup, sexier clothes, and high heels are given more opportunity in a large portion of American workplace environments.

But perhaps that is a whole other topic. It really is simple. You as a man do not get to see what I choose not to show you. You are not even entitled to see my face or even my own eyes if I don't want to show them to you. You do not have a right to see me at all. Period. I have a right to my personal privacy away from your prying eyes. This anti-niqab and anti-hijab cultural agenda is designed to remove women's privacy by forcing social interactions on women that are not on her terms. If a niqab-wearing woman wants to socially interact then she will do so at her discretion but she is not required to interact if she does not want to. If a woman cannot be left alone in a public place then that is not "freedom." Note how the same nations and cultures that are trying to ban women from covering their eyes, faces, heads, and necks are the same cultures promoting "unisex" bathrooms in which men and women have to do their business in the same washroom right next to each other.

 

[Independent]

What some non-Muslims and even Muslims do not understand is that Islam is not simply a religion that "you do" once a week in a closed-door building. It is a way of life that encompasses all aspects of both public and private life. I know very well what the anti-niqab and anti-hijab agendas are about. The agenda is not about protecting women as they would want you to believe but about fostering an environment and culture where women do not have a right to privacy

i respect what you have to say about the Islamic reasons for the niqab, but to describe the western attitude as an agenda based on a desire to remove women's privacy is flat wrong. If western women wished to reconsider their own emancipation and started a movement to cover up, there's nothing in the world that would stop them.

The real problem is that deep down, western cultures find it difficult to believe that women had a genuine freedom of choice when they adopted the niqab/hijab - even if the women themselves say so. The reasons for this are historical.

The historical prohibitions concerning women's dress in the west were purely socially based. They weren't based on anything more substantial than that. But at the time they were often supported and enforced as much by women as men, because most people adopt the conventions of the society in which they grow up.

Therefore, when the principle of freedom of individual choice came to dominate western philosophy, in the absence of a religious justification these rules were swept away along with a host of other social conventions and restrictions.

Yes, this issue has got mixed up with recent Muslim/western political issues and tensions. But the underlying emotional difficulty westerners now have with the niqab/hijab is that, based on the history they know (and that's western history), it looks like a re-run of a social battle that was fought many years ago.

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Again, apart from this superficial similarity in pictures, i really don't think the nun comparison is very strong.

At a deeper level, probably not. When you bring the issue of monasticism into it, then that is not what is being compared. I think the example is only meant to be a superficial one, comparing the dress codes, not the lifestyle.

The main issue you raise in your posts is social pressure, but then I go back to what I said before, which is whether this is truly a concern on a large scale, justifying negative perceptions. More and more women are converting to Islam and choosing to wear the Hijab/veil, often against the wishes of their families. Women are repeatedly telling the world in interviews, articles and on the streets that they are wearing the veil out of their own choice, and some have even been willing to be arrested or pay the fine for it. Campaigns have been raised against places where the ban has been instituted. I think one will find more examples of women who have to defend their right to wear the Hijab/veil than those who speak of coercion. The letter posted on the previous page of this thread mentions:

There is no campaign group of closet ex-veil Muslims, no Facebook page trying to raise awareness of an epidemic of coercive veiling. It’s quite simple - scores of young veil wearing Muslim women, like the ones who had the ban overturned due to the pressure they put on the Birmingham college, wear it out of their own accord. Apart from the fact that not all girls start wearing it at 13 anyway, it is strange that this discussion is not had about straightened hair, makeup or the length of the school skirt, or how across secondary schools in the UK today, 13-year-olds are adopting the ‘beauty ideal’ because they feel they have to. That is if we really want to talk about coercion in how girls dress.