Spotlight: Anti-Niqab Agenda

[Independent]

The thing is that the Niqab has been subject to debate a number of times before these examples you quote even occurred. Moreover, it is not simply a case of believing the media - the issue is being discussed by parliament itself:

This is a private members bill. I don't want to bore you with the intricacies of the parliamentary system, but essentially it means not only that it has no chance of becoming law, but also (as it is only 17th on the list) will probably never even get debated. The MP who has brought the bill is to the far right of the Tory party - so far right that UKIP decided not to field a candidate against him in the last election. And that tells us all we need to know about him.

The UK is not a mono culture like some countries, and a terrific range of views can gain expression. It takes time to understand where the real centre is, especially if you're not familiar with the system.

I say again - there is no chance that a public ban on the niqab or burqa will come into place in the UK, unless there is a significant additional provoking factor. That's why it probably remains in the hands of Muslims whether or not such a ban occurs.

It's a simple prediction and you're welcome to tell me 'I told you so' if it turns out I got it wrong.

 

[Muhammad]

Thanks for the clarification. I hope I won't have to tell you 'I told you so'!

 

[~Zaria~]

Interestingly, two months ago the Swiss canton of Ticino, passed a ban on burkas (full body cloaks) as well as niqaabs:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rkas-and-niqabs-banned-from-Swiss-canton.html


"One of the main backers of the ban, former journalist Giorgio Ghiringhelli, said he wanted to put a stop to “the inevitable spread of niqabs and burkas.” (even though it is estimated that only ~100 women out of the 400 000 muslims in Switzerland wear burkas).

 

[Independent]

Also, what you have quoted is no excuse for Saudi. Saudi, like the UK and other richer countries, began to face the problem of dealing with jobs its own people don't want to do any more. In the UK, they partly solved this problem by permitting immigration. In Saudi, they don't like to dilute their wealth. So they import the workers from poor countries who have no choice, give them minimal rights, and then throw them out when they're not useful any more. Morally, there are light years between the two positions, and Saudi is in the wrong position.

A strange coincidence - reports have just come in of battles in Saudi between migrant workers and police. The workers are protesting about bad treatment and life on the edge of Saudi society:

Last Monday, the authorities began rounding up thousands of illegal foreign workers following the expiry of a seven-month amnesty for them to formalise their status. Nearly a million Bangladeshis, Indians, Filipinos, Nepalis, Pakistanis and Yemenis are estimated to have left the country in the past three months....An estimated nine million migrant workers are in Saudi Arabia - more than half the workforce - filling manual, clerical, and service jobs.

Nine million people with no rights of citizenship! An amazing percentage of the population. A figure probably not seen since the days of ancient Rome.

Full report here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24888304

 

[~Zaria~]

^ this thread is about the anti-niqab agenda currently witnessed in Europe.

It has nothing to do with the immigration policies of other countries (which I have already mentioned, I personally (and I'm sure many others) don't agree with).

This is an intentional off-topic post in an attempt to distract from Europes current climate.

 

[faithandpeace]

Assalamu alaikum.

I don't consider there to be any form of neutrality or equality of ideas. Therefore, the right for a woman to go out in public in a burqa is not equal to the right for a woman to go out in public naked. Western thought often portrays this sense of neutrality as if multiple ideas are to be considered on an equal level. It is intellectually deadening. It would be absurd for instance to have a debate on "Is it ok to rape women?" or "Should we support or oppose human sacrifices?" and having "both sides" presented as if they are somehow equal ideas. That may be how some infidels think but it is not how Muslims think or least should not think in my humble opinion.

That being said, as far as I'm concerned there is no debate with non-Muslims about the niqab as the niqab is a part of Islam and is a part of our faith and practice of Islam. I do not wear niqab although I own one and wore it a couple of times to see what it was like. I find it disturbing when I come across so-called Muslims who oppose niqab thinking it is somehow "cultural." If a Muslim does not wear niqab then that is between them and Allah (swt) and the same goes with any other aspect of religious observance or lackthereof. The only debate we as Muslims have on niqab is whether it is required or recommended but it is not something that is simply considered optional. At a minimum, we should be wearing niqab and at most must be wearing it. Just because most of us do not wear it does not mean we disagree with what Allah (swt) has ordered for us but it may mean we have not yet submitted to those particular commands although hopefully we are always intending on increasing our obedience to Allah (swt) in all ways possible.

If a government (doesn't matter if it is a Western secular government or a "Muslim" government) passes laws prohibiting from practicing any aspect of our religion to my knowledge that results in a jihad. Such a jihad in the case of being prohibited from wearing niqab could involve deliberately violating the law prohibiting women wearing niqab by wearing it anyway and paying any fines or serving any jail time as a consequence. This is very much the case of what is going on in France right now. A common term for this is "civil disobedience." That may not be what some people in this thread want to hear but as far as I'm concerned we submit our wills to Allah (swt) and not to the will of a state.

If Muslims give in to the pressure then they keep pushing further until there is no hijab, no public prayer, no masjid construction allowed, no halal food stores, and one day you wake up and realize that simply being Muslim is considered a crime. There is a reason so many Western and non-Western secular societies are threatened by Islam. That is because they are starting to realize that their cultures are declining because those cultures have become devoid of values. Whether they want to admit it or not they know Islam is the truth. There is no more potent weapon than the truth. They can call observant Muslims "radicals" all they want. They certainly think niqabi women and bearded men are "radicals." Well guess what? The truth is radical. Islam was never designed to make the wrongdoers comfortable and we are not required to dumb down or water down our deen to make infidels comfortable around us. We should of course be positive examples and that means live our lives as Muslims with the highest level of morality and ethics. Regardless of how many people think we are "7th century" with our veils and how supposed "21st century life" is "advancement" the fact is that Islam is here and Islam does not change. Either love it or leave it. Period.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Which part of my statement is actually disrespectful, and not true?

The fact is, that women who walk around half-dressed - does impact on the rest of society.

In exactly the same way that women who walk around in burqas do. It attracts attention and stands out, and may offend some local tradition, etc.

'Alcohol that flows freely and diminishes the senses' - does impact on everyone else.

This is true. And that's why public drunkenness laws make sense.

The point being made is that no-one has called for a ban on this type of lifestyle despite its effects on society

That isn't true. Prohibition is rather famous example of an attempt to ban alcohol. There are conservatives still pushing for that sort of thing today. There are also nudity bans pretty much everywhere. You'll get strange looks and some rude comments if you wear a burqa downtown. You will get arrested if you go nude.

Perhaps, you can provide some views on the topic at hand, e.g. why the dutch politician (and so many others) are in such fear of the rapid growth of islam

I think it has mostly to do with 9/11, death threats over cartoons, and stuff like that. This is what the west has come to see as Islam. Most of us over here don't understand that liberal or peaceful muslims exist. It sounds like a contradiction in terms to these people.

I actually think that perception of intolerance is the biggest hurdle. Not many people will stick up for fair treatment to muslims if they see muslims as endorsing unfair treatment to others (ie, homosexuals, kafirs, etc).

 

[observer]

When a woman leaves her home in shorts and a 'strappy' top (just as an example…..we are currently in summer here, and this is a common sight at the moment), is she not essentially 'half dressed'?

No, she is just dressed. Not dressed as you might, not dressed as islam may say she should be, but dressed. To call her half-dressed is to say dressed incorrectly and an insult. You don't want niqab wearing women to be insulted so why should women who dress in their own way be subject to insult?

The command for women to be covered in public is not just an islamic teaching.

This can be found in Christian, Jewish and other scriptures - in other words, the effect that women (who expose themselves) has on society (on men in particular) has been well recognized by most, if not all religious institutes.
Islam is not the exception – it is instead upholding the code of living that was ordained long before the arrival of Muhammad (sallalahu alaihi wasalam).

I never understand this defence. Other religions do it so it's ok for islam? As I say, if you want to cover - fine. Just don't insult those who don't.

[This topic is not about alcohol and its effects, and I would have hoped that we were all aware of its harmful effects (that far out-weigh any possible benefits)

And here's a link to the benefits of alcohol - moderate intake of which has been shown to be very good for health in the long term. http://www.medicaldaily.com/7-health-benefits-drinking-alcohol-247552

Too much alcohol is bad for you. But then, too much sugar is as well. I accept that this isn't the thread for an alcohol discussion but just because you don't approve doesn't make it wrong.

 

[Muhammad]

There are also nudity bans pretty much everywhere. You'll get strange looks and some rude comments if you wear a burqa downtown. You will get arrested if you go nude.

I mentioned in the other thread that, 'It's not an offence to be naked in public in England and Wales. Becomes offence if it can be proved the person stripped off with the intention to upset and shock.'
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-a...ttacks-niqab-uk-government-3.html#post1598241

I think it has mostly to do with 9/11, death threats over cartoons, and stuff like that. This is what the west has come to see as Islam. Most of us over here don't understand that liberal or peaceful muslims exist. It sounds like a contradiction in terms to these people.

As politicans and columnists have themselves realised, this is precisely the problem with this discussion because many people are jumping on the anti-niqab bandwagon out of Islamophobia as opposed to true concern over women's welfare.

I actually think that perception of intolerance is the biggest hurdle. Not many people will stick up for fair treatment to muslims if they see muslims as endorsing unfair treatment to others (ie, homosexuals, kafirs, etc).

We have to make the distinction between expressing disapproval and condoning unfair treatment. We can all disapprove of something taking place in society but it doesn't mean we endorse unfair treatment to those individuals.

 

[~Zaria~]

No, she is just dressed. Not dressed as you might, not dressed as islam may say she should be, but dressed. To call her half-dressed is to say dressed incorrectly and an insult. You don't want niqab wearing women to be insulted so why should women who dress in their own way be subject to insult?

If we have to literally take the body surface area that is exposed, versus that which is covered, then a woman dressing in this manner is indeed 'half-dressed/ semi-dressed/ semi-nude - whichever terminology you wish to use - to a greater or lesser extent.
This is not a phrase that I have coined myself, with any intention for use as an insult.
This phrase is used often enough in various forms of media - by non-muslims as well. (You are free to research for yourself if you so wish).

Some time ago, I was in a conversation with a group of middle-aged Christian women - and they were commenting on how indecently our young women are dressed nowadays.....even from young prepubescent girls and adolescents.

This is a society that is feeding upon the objectification and sexualization of women - and we will not be afraid to discuss this, for fear of surprisingly skewed sensitivities.

I never understand this defence. Other religions do it so it's ok for islam?

^ You have completely missed the point here. Please feel free to read the post and watch the vid again.

And here's a link to the benefits of alcohol - moderate intake of which has been shown to be very good for health in the long term. http://www.medicaldaily.com/7-health-benefits-drinking-alcohol-247552

Too much alcohol is bad for you. But then, too much sugar is as well. I accept that this isn't the thread for an alcohol discussion but just because you don't approve doesn't make it wrong.

Its not wrong because 'I' dont approve.
Its wrong because Our Creator, Allah, the Most Powerful, does not approve.


As mentioned before, you are logged onto ISLAMICBOARD.com

The views expressed here reflect the teachings of the Quraan and Sunnah of our prophet (sallalahu alaihi wasalam), to the best of our abilities.

If you are expecting:
- Sympathy
- Rationalization
- Fear of mentioning what is haraam/ forbidden (yes, alcohol is Haraam - no matter your justifications - and this will not change)
- 'Willingness to adapt' to the morals or lifestyle governed by a society that makes its own rules as it goes along, and that go against Islam in any form, shape or manner,

then, you have unfortunately logged onto the wrong forum.

If you cannot accept this, then perhaps you should be logging here:
http://ravingatheists.com/forum/ (whose motto is: 'Only sheep need a shepherd' !......I suppose the rest of creation are just meant to wander along aimlessly.)

All the best.

 

[Aprender]

 

[جوري]

here don't understand that liberal or peaceful muslims exist

This is what 'liberal' so-called Muslims are doing in Muslim majority countries:

obviously your understanding of liberal and peaceful denotes your desire to kill and maim, pillage, rape, burn, bulldoze and make naked the women and anyone who opposes that is a terrorist.. also seems your education on what a liberal is or of Muslims in general is limited & gravitates only toward folks who share your views and agenda!

 

[observer]

This phrase is used often enough in various forms of media - by non-muslims as well.

Yes, it is. And always as a derogatory comment. How can you ask people to respect muslims' clothing choices when you are happy to insult the choices of non-muslims?

I've said before, I don't like necessarily agree with the dress choices of some women, but I respect those choices. Many here seem to demand respect for muslims whilst denying the same respect to non-muslims.

 

[جوري]

Many here seem to demand respect

The demand here isn't respect! Check again- the demand here is for govt. to stay out of people's business, that it isn't the place of the govt. to legislate what people wear!!!!
You often miss the point or meander it as do your other pals on the thread!

 

[observer]

The demand here isn't respect! Check again- the demand here is for govt. to stay out of people's business, that it isn't the place of the govt. to legislate what people wear!!!!
You often miss the point or meander it as do your other pals on the thread!

As I've said various times on this thread, I don't think it's the government's place to dictate what people should or should not wear. It's interesting that you're the only person who's always on the point....

 

[جوري]

As I've said various times on this thread, I don't think it's the government's place to dictate what people should or should not wear. It's interesting that you're the only person who's always on the point....

If I were the only one on the point then there would be no need for you to address others with what is apparently news to them. ---

 

[faithandpeace]

I don't understand why there even is a debate let alone why non-Muslims are involved in debates regarding our own personal religious practices at all. The only time a niqab or burqa could be an issue would be if it was a safety or security issue. A safety issue would be having clothing material that could get caught in dangerous machines or could swing by fire or hot surfaces or something like that where clothing could be a safety issue. Then in such a case different accommodations could be made so that the Muslim could practice religion and safety standards are upheld. The security issue really comes down to identification such as when a police officer on the street, security at an airport, or a teller at a bank needs to verify that you are the person that is shown on your identification. Same goes with students taking tests in school as the teacher may need to know the person taking the test matches the name on the paper. The niqab-wearing Muslim can simply lift the niqab for identity purposes in front of another woman or if no woman is available then perhaps she could lift it in front of a man identifying her if other conditions are present (i.e. her mahram is present with her or she is is not in a room with a door closed, etc.). All these points aside, non-Muslims do not get to dictate our religion to us at all. If I want to wear the full veil, it is between me and Allah (swt) and doesn't involve you.

 

[Pygoscelis]

obviously your understanding of liberal and peaceful denotes your desire to kill and maim, pillage, rape, burn, bulldoze and make naked the women and anyone who opposes that is a terrorist

By "your understanding" are you referring to me personally? Do you imagine I desire to kill, maim, pillage, rape, burn, bulldoze and make people naked?

.. also seems your education on what a liberal is or of Muslims in general is limited & gravitates only toward folks who share your views and agenda!

My idea of liberal is freedom and equal treatment for all. They don't have to share my views. In fact, a muslim by definition does not share my views, since I am not muslim.

 

[Pygoscelis]

I don't understand why there even is a debate let alone why non-Muslims are involved in debates regarding our own personal religious practices at all. The only time a niqab or burqa could be an issue would be if it was a safety or security issue. A safety issue would be having clothing material that could get caught in dangerous machines or could swing by fire or hot surfaces or something like that where clothing could be a safety issue. Then in such a case different accommodations could be made so that the Muslim could practice religion and safety standards are upheld. The security issue really comes down to identification such as when a police officer on the street, security at an airport, or a teller at a bank needs to verify that you are the person that is shown on your identification. Same goes with students taking tests in school as the teacher may need to know the person taking the test matches the name on the paper. The niqab-wearing Muslim can simply lift the niqab for identity purposes in front of another woman or if no woman is available then perhaps she could lift it in front of a man identifying her if other conditions are present (i.e. her mahram is present with her or she is is not in a room with a door closed, etc.). All these points aside, non-Muslims do not get to dictate our religion to us at all. If I want to wear the full veil, it is between me and Allah (swt) and doesn't involve you.

It involves others if you come to their communities and break their social norms, in the same way that it would involve people in a muslim country should two homosexuals go there and walk around holding hands (or kiss in public). It breaks convention and some are going to be offended by it. To say it is just between you and Allah, or between those two men and them alone, and that it doesn't affect the community around it simply isn't so. What should be done about these things, if anything, is another question. I am liberal, and have no issue with either, so wouldn't do anything in either case.

It especially affects others in the community if you demand special treatment from them, such as demanding a female officer be brought in to look under face veils and confirm identities, slowing everything down for everybody and taking that officer away from her other duties. Perhaps a compromise could be met where the muslima pays a premium for this sort of service? I don't see why the bank, airport, tax payer, etc should have to pay for it.

 

[جوري]

By "your understanding" are you referring to me personally? Do you imagine I desire to kill, maim, pillage, rape, burn, bulldoze and make people naked?



My idea of liberal is freedom and equal treatment for all. They don't have to share my views. In fact, a muslim by definition does not share my views, since I am not muslim.

This comment was made by you no?

Most of us over here don't understand that liberal or peaceful muslims exist.

These are the liberal values you espouse and the type of people you support. Liberal & peaceful is in fact a contradiction in terms and your western govt. are sponsoring these bloody coups with their so-called liberal democratic values and from the the tax payers money. If you don't see yourself as enjoying the kill then don't make such statements and hope they merely slide by while you push your idea of what is good and peaceful on the rest of us!

best,