Spotlight: Anti-Niqab Agenda

[Pygoscelis]

Projecting US military atrocity on me makes about as much sense as projecting militant Islamic terrorism on you. It's just stupid.

And if both "sides" insist on seeing things that way, then there can be no hope for peaceful coexistence as the violent radicals steer the ship.

Do you want peaceful coexistence, or do you want more photos like the ones you posted?

 

[جوري]

Projecting US military atrocity on me makes about as much sense as projecting militant Islamic terrorism on you. It's just stupid.

And if both "sides" insist on seeing things that way, then there can be no hope for peaceful coexistence as the violent radicals steer the ship.

Do you want peaceful coexistence, or do you want more photos like the ones you posted?

There's NO other conclusion for 'peaceful liberal Muslims' other than the one drawn- perhaps you should think twice and do research on the matter in lieu of dancing around your repeated snafus. What I want or what I care for isn't the subject of this topic!

best,

 

[Muhammad]

Can we please stick to the topic of Niqab...

 

[جوري]

'liberal values' are antithetical to the subject of Niqaab at least so they've proven, 'liberalism and freedom' aren't as inclusive as our pals will have you believe in fact quite exclusive and only extend themselves to a certain brand of "Muslims' who impose that agenda in blood if need be. So that's laying it down on the line and we can spare one another phony political correctness and calisthenics with words!

 

[Karl]

'liberal values' are antithetical to the subject of Niqaab at least so they've proven, 'liberalism and freedom' aren't as inclusive as our pals will have you believe in fact quite exclusive and only extend themselves to a certain brand of "Muslims' who impose that agenda in blood if need be. So that's laying it down on the line and we can spare one another phony political correctness and calisthenics with words!

Yes conservatives would not worry about Niquaab. British females used to be humble and cover up from head to toe in the good old days. Muslims even adopted the old Christian garb when females had modesty. Any female that showed a little skin was called a Jezebel in those days. Modern conservatives are just liberals with more cash.

 

[جوري]

I am not into gossip & who says what anymore than I am into govt. legislating garb or kaffirs justifying it on the account some bozo committed a crime. The whole thing is a farce from both ends. People should leave these women alone their lives are hard enough as is without others closing in on them from every angle!

 

[Pygoscelis]

Can we please stick to the topic of Niqab...

Apparently not.

Yes conservatives would not worry about Niquaab.

LOL Riiiight.

The people in the US going on and on about "muzzie terr'ists" and burning Qurans are the conservatives, not the liberals.

The neoconservative movement that spread fear and hatred and inflamed US nationalism and led to the invasion of Iraq was also conservative.

And my mentioning liberal muslims, the ones who don't react violently to "insults" against their beliefs, and may want to live and let live, according to our friendly lady here, means I want to rape and kill people...

There really is no rational conversation with some on this board.

 

[جوري]

The people in the US going on and on about "muzzie terr'ists" and burning Qurans are the conservatives, not the liberals

liberals just do it they don't have to talk about it although of late they've become more vocal. They both share the exact same agenda and I think whether you watch Bill Maher or Bill O'reilly you get the exact same **** styled differently!
If you find a nice blanket in political correctness by all means. Whether you knock extra hard on your chest in show of prowess of work in stealth the end result is one in the same!

best,

 

[Karl]

Apparently not.



LOL Riiiight.

The people in the US going on and on about "muzzie terr'ists" and burning Qurans are the conservatives, not the liberals.

The neoconservative movement that spread fear and hatred and inflamed US nationalism and led to the invasion of Iraq was also conservative.

And my mentioning liberal muslims, the ones who don't react violently to "insults" against their beliefs, and may want to live and let live, according to our friendly lady here, means I want to rape and kill people...

There really is no rational conversation with some on this board.

I'm not talking about those colonial American vandals. I'm talking about the old God King and country English conservatives of the 19th century before Britain was hijacked by Zionists. London was the greatest city in the world and females if they wanted to be respectable would cover up. No one then would give a niqab a second thought but just think the wearer was very pious. Also people minded their own business back then.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Interesting. Do you think on the whole Britain became more or less tolerant of Islam since then? How about between then and the events of 9/11 and the London subway bombing (I'm thinking things improved for muslims but maybe not?)? And how about from then until now (I'm thinking it got a lot worse for muslims).

I don't think the United States has every been very tolerant of anything not Christian, but became a lot more hateful towards muslims following 9/11. Do I have that right?

 

[faithandpeace]

The more these people oppose niqab, the more it makes me want to start wearing it. As Muslims we should know that when you try to follow or implement the truth, there will be protests. I love the niqab but I am not yet there in my level of observance. Insha'Allah someday I will but I have other religious priorities in the mean time.

 

[Karl]

Interesting. Do you think on the whole Britain became more or less tolerant of Islam since then? How about between then and the events of 9/11 and the London subway bombing (I'm thinking things improved for muslims but maybe not?)? And how about from then until now (I'm thinking it got a lot worse for muslims).

I don't think the United States has every been very tolerant of anything not Christian, but became a lot more hateful towards muslims following 9/11. Do I have that right?

Britain has become less tolerant of Islam. Because of it's Zionist imperialist agendas Britain is basically at war with Islam. The United States of America is in the same boat as Britain.

 

[~Zaria~]

Yes, it is. And always as a derogatory comment. How can you ask people to respect muslims' clothing choices when you are happy to insult the choices of non-muslims?

Is this article by BBC 'derogratory' as well: "Retailers are being warned they could face legal action if they continue to sell magazines showing images of naked and semi-naked women......" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22674928
Even human rights organizations, that try to raise awareness of the exploitation of women make use of this terminology.

I find it ironical that an atheist speaks of 'disrespect' towards non-muslims on an islamic forum that has in fact shown so much respect towards all other groups.

Visit any atheist forum and you will find such vile comments and blasphemy towards Islam, and all other religions - that I think it would be more appropriate to voice your concerns there (in fact, the motto of one atheist forum is: 'Nude pics or it didnt happen').

We have far greater respect for our women, and even though we do not impose our way of life upon others, neither will we be muted about the exploitation of women, that is even being recognized and addressed by non-muslims. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20554942)


************************


As much as I agree that the various views of non-muslims on the hijab/ niqab has absolutely no bearing on our religious commandments......by contributing to this thread, it has unexpectedly helped me develop a response to questions that are posed in real life, Alhamdulillah.

As mentioned earlier, it is now summer in my country, and for some reason, women appear to respond to heat much more 'intensely' than men.
So, even though men are still able to go to work in full-sleeve shirts and trousers, women tend to shed layers of clothing in the summer seasons.

A very common question posed to muslim women who wear the niqab or hijab in summer is: Don't you feel HOT in those clothes?

Alhamdulillah, drawing from Sheikh Ahmed Deedat (ra), this will be my reply to anyone who ever asks me this question again:


Ms X: 'Zaria', its such a hot day - its 37'C outside......Dont you feel HOT in those clothes??

Zaria: Hi Ms X. Yes, it is indeed a hot day today.
However, I have chosen to dress according to Gods commandments in the Bible (if Im speaking to a Christian)/ the Torah (if Im speaking to a Jew)....as well as the Quraan.

Ms X: But the Bible does not say that women should be covered in this manner......

Zaria: Actually, it does.
In Corinthians 11:4-16, it says: 'But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as having her head shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.'

As I dont wish to shave off my hair, I have chosen to cover it up as commanded by our Creator.

Unfortunately, many people don't wish to observe their own religious teachings and commands from God on how we should live our lives......which I think is sad, considering how much He provides for us on a daily basis and the fact that we owe our very lives to Him alone.

Ms X: I never considered that......I think I must look into this further....
or: Ermmm.....Chat to you later!

Zaria: No problem Ms X. Take care

-----------

My sisters who are in niqab/ hijab and who are dressing to please their Creator, if ever you are confronted or belittled by others in any manner about your way of dress - try out this response in shaa Allah.

We will not bow down from following Islam in the manner ordained by Allah and His messenger (sallalahu alaihi wasalam), if others have chosen to forsake their own religious commands upon them.


:wa:

 

[observer]

Is this article by BBC 'derogratory' as well: "Retailers are being warned they could face legal action if they continue to sell magazines showing images of naked and semi-naked women......" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22674928
Even human rights organizations, that try to raise awareness of the exploitation of women make use of this terminology.

If you had followed that story, you would know that it is about magazines peddling soft-pornography and pretending that they're not. The images they complain about are nothing to do with normal women wearing their normal clothes on a day to day basis - the images being complained about are sexual images. I happen to agree with the protest, but it doesn't support your statement at all.

I also agree that there is too much exploitation of womens' images - I don't see the way to combat this as to cover them all up however.

As for your comments about atheists' lack of respect - atheists are not a group with a code or a set of rules. You'll find many atheists who are utter idiots. You'll find plenty who are lovely. Atheism isn't a religion - there are no shared values, just a lack of belief in god. It's a common mistake for people to say "Well atheists believe..." because no, they don't. Only one thing unites atheists - a belief that there is no god. Beyond that, there is no link.

 

[~Zaria~]

If you had followed that story, you would know that it is about magazines peddling soft-pornography and pretending that they're not. The images they complain about are nothing to do with normal women wearing their normal clothes on a day to day basis - the images being complained about are sexual images. I happen to agree with the protest, but it doesn't support your statement at all.

I also agree that there is too much exploitation of womens' images - I don't see the way to combat this as to cover them all up however.

As for your comments about atheists' lack of respect - atheists are not a group with a code or a set of rules. You'll find many atheists who are utter idiots. You'll find plenty who are lovely. Atheism isn't a religion - there are no shared values, just a lack of belief in god. It's a common mistake for people to say "Well atheists believe..." because no, they don't. Only one thing unites atheists - a belief that there is no god. Beyond that, there is no link.

^ the point being made is that the apparently insulting term 'semi-naked' women is used globally (most often with the purpose of drawing attention to the exploitation of women) - without any issues raised about its use (apart from yourself).

What you mention as: 'The images they complain about are nothing to do with normal women wearing normal clothes on a day to day basis - the images being complained about are sexual images..... ',
could very well be included in our personal experiences of women at work/ in the malls/ on the beach who are dressed in the most revealing and provocative manners.

What we see in these magazines, are largely being portrayed by our society as well.
Women see what is 'in fashion' in for this summer season in the media......and this is indeed reflected in the choice of clothing that we see them wear in reality.

Again, if you wish to speak about 'respect to others' you are certainly addressing the wrong audience.
It is part of our Islamic teachings to respect others irrespective of their religious beliefs, gender, color and ethnicity.

As you have correctly mentioned, there are no shared moral values held by atheists - which is why every atheist discussion board without fail, shows the utmost disrespect to the religious beliefs of others.
This is certainly not an attempt to generalize this behavior to all atheists.
However, what is discussed in private within members of a specific group is always more revealing than what is proclaimed to others.


Peace

 

[observer]

^ the point being made is that the apparently insulting term 'semi-naked' women is used globally (most often with the purpose of drawing attention to the exploitation of women) - without any issues raised about its use (apart from yourself).

What you mention as: 'The images they complain about are nothing to do with normal women wearing normal clothes on a day to day basis - the images being complained about are sexual images..... ',
could very well be included in our personal experiences of women at work/ in the malls/ on the beach who are dressed in the most revealing and provocative manners.

What we see in these magazines, are largely being portrayed by our society as well.
Women see what is 'in fashion' in for this summer season in the media......and this is indeed reflected in the choice of clothing that we see them wear in reality.

Again, if you wish to speak about 'respect to others' you are certainly addressing the wrong audience.
It is part of our Islamic teachings to respect others irrespective of their religious beliefs, gender, color and ethnicity.

As you have correctly mentioned, there are no shared moral values held by atheists - which is why every atheist discussion board without fail, shows the utmost disrespect to the religious beliefs of others.
This is certainly not an attempt to generalize this behavior to all atheists.
However, what is discussed in private within members of a specific group is always more revealing than what is proclaimed to others.


Peace

But the article you linked to is concerned with "Lads' Mags" - semi-pornographic magazines with naked and near-naked women in sexually provocative positions. It bears no relation at all to women wearing "strappy tops" in the summer.

 

[~Zaria~]

But the article you linked to is concerned with "Lads' Mags" - semi-pornographic magazines with naked and near-naked women in sexually provocative positions. It bears no relation at all to women wearing "strappy tops" in the summer.

The definition of 'Lads Mags' itself is up for debate.
One can easily argue that magazines such as 'FHM' and 'Mens Health' - while they are not technically classified as 'pornographic' magazines, they do indeed promote the display of women in semi-naked pics.

The above example was simply to highlight the regular/ common usage of this terminology - and I think this point has now been emphasized enough.

In fact, if one does not wish to be referred to in this manner, it is quite simple: Cover up in a manner of modesty (and in a manner that is commanded by almost, if not all, religious dominations) when going to the beach/ leaving the house, etc - and then the term 'Fully Dressed' will apply

In shaa Allah, we can resume with the actual topic of Niqaab - the manner in which Islam protects and honors its women, and the agenda to ban this freedom to express ones religious beliefs.


Peace

 

[observer]

The above example was simply to highlight the regular/ common usage of this terminology - and I think this point has now been emphasized enough.

Yes, it's common to describe someone as half-dressed / half-naked - when suggesting that they are being sexually provocative or improperly dressed. I think it's completely unreasonable to use it to describe normal women dressing in their own, normal way and going about their own business.

As for your suggestion that:

In fact, if one does not wish to be referred to in this manner, it is quite simple: Cover up in a manner of modesty (and in a manner that is commanded by almost, if not all, religious denominations) when going to the beach/ leaving the house, etc - and then the term 'Fully Dressed' will apply

Well, then I assume you'd accept that, following your logic, if a niqab-wearer is insulted in the street in the west for dressing as she does, then it's her own fault for choosing to dress that way. To avoid being insulted, she should dress "appropriately" in the same way as the majority around her.

Except that seems a bit like a ridiculous argument, doesn't it?

 

[~Zaria~]

Well, then I assume you'd accept that, following your logic, if a niqab-wearer is insulted in the street in the west for dressing as she does, then it's her own fault for choosing to dress that way. To avoid being insulted, she should dress "appropriately" in the same way as the majority around her.

Except that seems a bit like a ridiculous argument, doesn't it?

These are directly descriptive words, without the use of any derogratory terminology.

If a woman in niqab is described directly as well, then she too should not find it insulting - as this is how she chooses to portray herself: 'A woman in niqab/ in hijab'.

Yet, there seems to be a strange sensitivity (on your part) for directly describing any other woman - who also chooses to dress in a manner that makes me, as another woman, need to lower her gaze.
(A muslim brother recently mentioned to me that nowadays its even dangerous to 'lower ones gaze' (as is recommended) - as one often finds that there is so little that is covered up, that one doesnt even know where to look anymore....)


It is as simple as the following:

To be described as 'fully dressed', one needs to BE fully dressed.
To be a woman in niqab, one needs to BE a woman in niqab.

The sight of women baring their arms and legs (and even hair) only emerged in the last ~ century.
Over this period, the message provided by the media is that this is 'progressive', 'sexy', 'appealing' - and that there is nothing wrong in walking around in as little coverage as one desires.

Perhaps, coming from a background of atheism, you may not be able to appreciate this (as ones code for living is purely individualistic).
However for the rest of society, who do follow one denomination of faith or another, women have always been commanded to leave their homes in modesty and covered up, for their own protection.

What is described as 'normal' by your own standards, goes against the commands of our Creator - not just from an Islamic point of view.

As mentioned, we respect peoples rights to live in a manner that they deem fit.
But when speaking directly about this topic, we speak in honesty (not in insult) of the ways of our society - as recognized by both muslims as well as a growing number of non-muslims.

 

[observer]

^^^ I think we have to agree to disagree. But when you describe my sister, or my girlfriend, or my friends as "half-dressed" when they leave the house dressed for summer, that is an insult. It's an insult to me and it's an insult to them.