Spotlight: Anti-Niqab Agenda

[~Zaria~]

^^^ I think we have to agree to disagree. But when you describe my sister, or my girlfriend, or my friends as "half-dressed" when they leave the house dressed for summer, that is an insult. It's an insult to me and it's an insult to them.

Yes, certainly it does not seem that we will be able to be convince you that in the same manner that:
- a sweet apple is described as - a sweet apple and,
- stale bread is called - stale bread and,
- a rusted piece of metal - is called a rusted piece of metal.....etc, etc....

in the same manner do we describe a person who is fully dressed as being: fully dressed......and one who is naked as being: naked.....and one who is in between as being - the exact description that is:::::: suddenly 'insultive' to use.

Anyhows, I doubt you will cease to hear the usage of these descriptions in the media, by both muslims (including our respected mufti below) and non-muslims - not in a derogratory sense, but in reference to the concerns that are genuinely present regarding the sexual exploitation of women in todays society.


Thought I will leave you with these 2 short videos (only 2.5 and 4 min each) that carry really important messages in relation to this topic:

[video=youtube;bce0xadesIM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bce0xadesIM#t=71[/video]



​

****************

Women are to be respected (not just muslim women, but ALL women).

Islam treats its women as precious commodities.....as Queens, that should be valued for her position as a mother, a daughter, a sister; and to be protected from the lustful gazes of strange men who have no claim over her.

As a woman who has been on both sides of the fence (there was a time, when I too was not covered in a manner appropriate for a muslim woman)......I say this, not to reveal my sins, but to make a point - that ever since I have learnt what TRUE HIJAB is, I have experienced the type liberation that is spoken about in these videos.
ALL Praise is due completely to Allah.

And every woman who has given up this way of life willingly (not by force), solely for the sake of dressing in a manner that has been ordained by our Creator throughout the ages, will also relate the same.

Just last night, a friend of mine messaged me to say that she has decided to wear the niqaab to her place of work from tomorrow.
She was in tears as she told me of her decision - out of such joy to be able to overcome society's pressures and expectations, and her own fears of people's reactions.

There are so many women who are seeing the fake, 'photo-shopped' lifestyle that is fed by the media, for what it is - superficial and degrading, and they are turning to Islam that offers the best type of peace and protection for women in our society.


Peace

 

[observer]

in the same manner do we describe a person who is fully dressed as being: fully dressed......and one who is naked as being: naked.....and one who is in between as being - the exact description that is:::::: suddenly 'insultive' to use.

So then someone wearing the niqab is fully dressed, and anyone between that and complete nakedness, according to this logic, is half-dressed?

 

[~Zaria~]

^ Its clear that you are trying to make an issue out of nothing, when the various descriptions used in the previous posts, articles and videos are all self-explanatory.

Freedictionary.com:

half-dressed
adj

partially clothed
​

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

 

[جوري]

This is a thread about legislating women dress- no one here is interested in your wife or girlfriend or courtesans or how they dress - how you manage to come out victims when victimizing others is a conundrum to me!

 

[~Zaria~]

- how you manage to come out victims when victimizing others is a conundrum to me!

Indeed, well said!

 

[observer]

Time and time again on this thread I've said I fully support a woman's right to choose what to wear, be that "western" dress or the niqab. It's a personal choice. I only wish to see respect afforded both ways - describing someone who dresses in a western fashion as "half-dressed" is not respectful. It's not "a descriptive term" - it's judgmental, it's insulting and it's unnecessary.

Again, if a woman chooses to go out dressed in a niqab - she is dressed how she wants to be and should be afforded our respect.

Likewise, if a woman chooses to go out in a "strappy summer top" then she is DRESSED - not half dressed, not half naked, not inappropriately dressed but dressed how she chooses to be and she should be afforded our respect.

You have the right not to approve of her. But she has the right not to approve of the niqab. It's not necessary to resort to insults. Calling her half-dressed is insulting.

 

[جوري]

There are no laws against what youbelieve is insulting-

 

[observer]

There are no laws against what youbelieve is insulting-

No, and I'm not saying there should be. I'm not even saying that Zaria shouldn't use the terms that she uses. What I'm saying is that they are disrespectful. If she wants to be disrespectful - fine. No problem. If she wants to insult those she feels dress wrongly - again, fine. No problem.

But being disrespectful when asking for respect yourself is a little hypocritical wouldn't you say?

 

[جوري]

No I don't find it hypocritical and I think if you'd read more than you write firstly you wouldn't bore us to death
You'd see what the take home message from all this and none of it has to do with feelings any feelings from any side at all rather govt. legislation of what women wear or shouldn't wear!

 

[observer]

No I don't find it hypocritical

You know, I'm not surprised that you don't.

 

[جوري]

Your compass isn't a measure by which anyone lives their lives- not sure why you felt the urge to put that down? Desire to just write something annoying I suppose!

 

[Karl]

I suppose it is all about perceptions. When I see a scantily dressed female, prostitute or fast and loose and sleeps around comes to mind. If I see a female covering herself from head to toe I think of piousness and modesty and not of her as a sex object. So the anti niqab agenda is basically an attack on religious clothing of modesty and piety.

 

[observer]

I suppose it is all about perceptions. When I see a scantily dressed female, prostitute or fast and loose and sleeps around comes to mind. If I see a female covering herself from head to toe I think of piousness and modesty and not of her as a sex object. So the anti niqab agenda is basically an attack on religious clothing of modesty and piety.

Interesting. When I see a woman, regardless of how she's dressed, I tend to try and afford her the same respect as I myself would like to be afforded.

 

[Karl]

Interesting. When I see a woman, regardless of how she's dressed, I tend to try and afford her the same respect as I myself would like to be afforded.

Interesting, you think like a radical liberal perhaps? I did not say anything about respect, just perception. Most men perceive that females that are scantily dressed are fast and have loose morals.

 

[جوري]

They make venetian masks and go out and party and commit lecherous acts and get away with it- that's the motto for vice whether scantily clad or completely anonymous there is no clean agenda behind it. So naturally they hate those who've consecrated their lives to God- just jealousy and hatred is all.
I have to wonder how sisters in niqab do it. They fight them everywhere. Their families hate it, their societies hate it and fast to torture them about it in so-called Muslim majority countries, forget westerners I mean bigotry is their bread and butter and they've successfully exported that everywhere but must come on board and play the victims over utter concocted stupidity & silliness!

 

[Pygoscelis]

I suppose it is all about perceptions. When I see a scantily dressed female, prostitute or fast and loose and sleeps around comes to mind. If I see a female covering herself from head to toe I think of piousness and modesty and not of her as a sex object.

All about perception indeed. When many in the west see women dressed head to toe, including masks, they think these women oppressed and radical. Their perception is probably wrong. Yours probably is as well. We should guard against such prejudice.

I would also note that there is a difference between dressing sexy and dressing minimally. A nudist woman who wears no make up and no frills, does not look nearly as sexualized as a much more dressed woman with make up and frills.

 

[Pygoscelis]

These are directly descriptive words, without the use of any derogratory terminology.

Sometimes people irrationally react so some descriptive words in different ways than others that mean the same thing.

If a woman in niqab is described directly as well, then she too should not find it insulting - as this is how she chooses to portray herself: 'A woman in niqab/ in hijab'.

She could also be described as woman wearing a mask or a woman hiding herself. She could be described as a woman subjugated to her culture and religion. If her eyes are visible, she can also be properly called "not fully dressed", since part of her body is exposed. She can also probably be called "uncomfortably dressed". All of this is true. Some of it will draw negative reaction.

And the woman in shorts and a tshirt can be called "half dressed" or she can be called "unencumbered" or "comfortably dressed" or "au naturel"

The sight of women baring their arms and legs (and even hair) only emerged in the last ~ century.

Depends what culture you want to look at and how far you want to go back, really. Ancient Greece, most of Afircan history, etc have had nude or near nude women as normal. Let's not look to the middle ages and deem that the norm or origin.

 

[ardianto]

All about perception indeed. When many in the west see women dressed head to toe, including masks, they think these women oppressed and radical. Their perception is probably wrong. So is yours.

I have read a number of comments about niqab from people in the West. Yes, they think niqabi women are oppressed and radical.

But this perception actually is not true.

 

[faithandpeace]

This is an Islamic discussion board and non-Muslims who choose to come here should expect to hear the opinions of Muslims based on an Islamic perspective and directed toward a Muslim audience. We are not here to parrot political correctness so that non-believers who aren't even the main audience of this forum can feel comfortable. I can say personally that I don't wish to offend others and I am sure most Muslims here feel the same. At the same time, as Muslims we have an obligation to tell the truth as we see it and as based on Qur'an and Sunnah. Therefore, it may be "offensive" to some if I discuss things such as alcohol consumption, adultery, homosexuality, or pork consumption in a negative light or if I use terms such as infidels, apostates, hypocrites, and heretics to describe the different sets of belief systems that do not adhere to correct Islamic theology as based on our sources. I am not saying I am the best dawah person around (I know I'm not) but if non-Muslims are going to be offended by hearing the message of Islam or if Muslim sinners (which are all of us at any given time most likely as we aren't perfect) don't want to hear what is obligatory or prohibited then perhaps the best decision is to discontinue reading or replying on this forum. We are not here to babysit people, not the members, not the moderators, not the administrators. So if hearing a condemnation of non-belief or sin offends you then that is not our fault. We are concerned about obeying the Master of all Creation, not pleasing every human, jinn, or whoever comes along just to make everyone comfortable. That is not how Islam works.

That being said, I personally love the niqab including with and without the eye-screen. I love the hijab and I love modest dress in general. From an Islamic perspective, I consider those (whether believers or non-believers) who dress with less clothes than is required in our religion to be less than fully dressed. Fully dressed at minimum for women means everything covered except hands and face and even then niqab is at minimum strongly recommended and in many cases outright required. Conservative Western dress for non-Muslims would involve long skirts that go to the ankles, tops that don't reveal form and cover the arms completely, a high neck line, and perhaps some type of a head covering but one that may leave the neck or part of the hair visible. Such dress style would be significantly more respectable than what most non-Muslim women in the West wear. It would not be at the level of Islamic standards but would be more in line with how modern "Orthodox" Jews dress or how Christians used to dress about a century ago.

Most Western women that I see in the months where the weather is decent, warm, or hot are at best "half dressed" and in many cases "mostly naked." That term may offend some but in terms of bodily surface area is correct. When a woman walks around in shorts so high above the knee and so tight that her buttocks is outlined, wears a spaghetti strapped top so tight and small that belly is showing and cleavage is showing, then you are looking at probably at least 2/3 of her body exposed. If she is hanging around pool areas or beaches and is wearing the common two-piece bikini then chances are 90-95% of her body is showing. "Half-dressed" and "semi naked" are quite accurate if not understatements. Even in office workplace environments, I see women wearing shorts to the knees, or shoulderless blouses which leave half of the legs and all of the arms and shoulders visible. It is not appropriate.

I also will add that increased temperature does not necessarily lead to the "logic" of less clothes. At the same time women walk around half-dressed or mostly naked because it is hot outside, there is an ever increasing amount of sunburns, skin diseases, and skin cancers going around. It doesn't even per se make sense according to physics. If the outside air is higher than the body temperature and you are outside standing with bare skin exposed to UV rays then the radiation has no barrier and a clear shot at directly heating up your skin making you hotter and sweatier and more prone to burns and diseases. A thick abaya on the other hand accompanied with a niqab may well block the UV rays and create a form of insulation so that the body can still sweat and cool off but without being exposed to as much of the outside air temperature and none of the UV rays. Burqas, niqabs, and hijabs are effective at blocking dust on windy days. I personally have felt cooler standing outside in the sun in an all black abaya with black hijab than I would have in a short-sleeve western blouse and shorts (of any color). In fact, I would have gotten most likely second-degree sun burns if I was outside for a long time in such attire. So people who love to say that Islamic dress is not practical are (outside of some limited safety situations) completely wrong. Clothes both insulate against cold and heat no differently than how insulation for homes work. It is also a lot more economical to throw on a niqab when going out in the hot sun that you can always wash and will last a long time rather than go through bottle after bottle of sunscreen, lotions, or makeup kits.

As Muslims we are obligated to improve our standards of dress and behavior per Islam and also encourage society in general to improve its standards. That may offend some. Well, not everyone has to agree either. We as Muslims could do more with our own communities. I would not mind seeing this aspect of sharia enforced in masjids and other Islamic environments where women are simply not allowed to attend if they are not compliant with Islamic dress codes and to remedy the situation such masjids and other environments can have a set of hijabs, abayas, etc. that can be lent out to guests to put on if they try to enter when not covered. I wouldn't even have a problem if such an environment enforced niqab and had niqabs on hand to lend out to those who didn't bring or wear one. That may offend non-Muslims and it may offend some Muslims as well. Oh well. There are also western secular business environments that do the same where if someone is not wearing a suit and tie or whatever they are not allowed in and many of these places have jackets, etc. for men who come without one.

So as Muslims we can (and should) be very tolerant and accomodating in the ways in which we implement Islamic prinicples, beliefs, and practices (such as niqab and hijab) but that does not mean we can bend or break the rules simply to make people comfortable or for convenience. I think I've said enough here. And Allah (swt) knows best.

 

[Independent]

There's a lot of fuss here about the meaning of the phrase 'half dressed'. Dictionary definitions take us only so far because the meaning depends on context.

To give an example, I've seen the expression used in the context of a man wearing a formal dinner suit being called 'half dressed' simply because he lacked a proper bow tie. Yet he is covered head to toe.

Context is everything. It doesn't just literally refer to the percentage of the body that is covered. But in the great majority of cases it is used in a more or less in a critical way so Observer is correct to view it that way.

Of course, as faithandpeace is fond of pointing out, this is a Muslim forum for Muslim views. But the very reasonable call for westerners to be understanding and tolerant of Islamic forms of dress becomes very unreasonable if at the same time, the same people deride and insult westerners for their mode of dress. I can't see how this will do anything except justify prejudice against Islamic dress. Those who spend time deriding western dress undermine their own cause.