Spotlight: Anti-Niqab Agenda

[~Zaria~]

Greetings,

Time and time again on this thread I've said I fully support a woman's right to choose what to wear, be that "western" dress or the niqab. It's a personal choice. I only wish to see respect afforded both ways - describing someone who dresses in a western fashion as "half-dressed" is not respectful. It's not "a descriptive term" - it's judgmental, it's insulting and it's unnecessary.

Again, if a woman chooses to go out dressed in a niqab - she is dressed how she wants to be and should be afforded our respect.

Likewise, if a woman chooses to go out in a "strappy summer top" then she is DRESSED - not half dressed, not half naked, not inappropriately dressed but dressed how she chooses to be and she should be afforded our respect.

You have the right not to approve of her. But she has the right not to approve of the niqab. It's not necessary to resort to insults. Calling her half-dressed is insulting.

Your entire argument falls flat if you accept the fact that the terms: half-dressed, semi-dressed, half-naked, etc are used more often than not by NON-muslims - who are not in hijab/ purdah.
It is used in all forms of media - news articles, blogs, human rights sites and more - all by NON-muslims (referring not only to images in magazines, but also to the manner in which women are dressing on a day-to-day basis).

But when these words are uttered from the mouths of muslims, then suddenly, it has become the means of 'insulting' others.

Perhaps do a little research - google the above words (not the images ;/), and tell us how many comments that include these terms are made by muslims, and how many are made by NON-muslims and athiests, who as I mentioned, themselves are NOT in hijab.
And guess what - there has never been (to my knowledge), an out-cry about its apparently 'insulting' connotations.


I honestly think that this issue has been more than sufficiently addressed on this thread - which has become the means of doing nothing more than distracting from the actual topic being the Anti-Niqab Agenda (not the 'Anti- Half-dressed/ Half-naked Women Agenda. As soon as such a ban is proposed, then you are free to start a thread to which we all can contribute our happiness to).

There's a lot of fuss here about the meaning of the phrase 'half dressed'. Dictionary definitions take us only so far because the meaning depends on context.

To give an example, I've seen the expression used in the context of a man wearing a formal dinner suit being called 'half dressed' simply because he lacked a proper bow tie. Yet he is covered head to toe.

Context is everything. It doesn't just literally refer to the percentage of the body that is covered.

The context of using this phrase in this discussion is more than apparent.
We are clearly not speaking about formal dinners here.

The dictionary definition of half-dressed is: Partially covered - and this is what is being discussed.
Ps. This dictionary was not compiled by a muslim woman in niqab.


********************

Just to clarify:

As muslims, we respect everyone's diversity.

In other words, if a muslim were to walk past a woman dressed with 85% of her body uncovered by clothes (in other words, she is not fully clothed according to the Quraan, Bible and Torah), then it would be incorrect for him to harass her, call her by derogatory names, etc.
He is meant to lower his gaze, and walk on by (and perhaps he can say a small prayer for her and all other people - that Allah guides them to His true way of life, as he has been guided).
^This is called respect.

However:

As muslims, we will never accept that this is 'normal' and acceptable behavior - simply because it goes against the commands of our Creator.
By doing so, we would be essentially making something permissible, which Allah has already decreed as being haraam/ forbidden.
So, this will never be possible for us.

The world through the eyes of an atheist is one which does not consist of any defined morals or code of living.
Each atheist lives according to what he feels is correct for him/ herself.

Which means that if people want to walk around naked - there will be some who say, this is their 'right'......we should 'respect' it and hence allow it.
If people want to marry their pets (and this actually has occurred) - then again, we should 'respect' it.
If people want to have sexual relations in public (as does occur in some places) - then we should 'respect' it.
If people want to eat their dead - then, perhaps this too is their choice, and we should 'respect' it.

^ By this logic, we will live in a lewd and lawless society, where everyone can make their own rules of living, as they desire.

In every unit of society, there are 'rules' to abide by.
So, if one works at a bank - they would be expected to wear a certain type of attire, according to the rules of that bank.
If the person decides to go to work wearing a G-string, then he/ she will be told to go back home and return in a manner that is acceptable according to that place of occupation (assuming they are not fired already).
The person would not turn around and say: 'Respect me, this is my choice!' (unless he is actually trying to lose his job).

In a similar way, and on a greater scale, we have 'rules' by which we live by.
These 'rules' are our way of living as dictated by the word of Allah - the Quraan, and the practice of the final prophet, Muhammad (sallalahu alaihi wasalam).

We cannot, and will not give up the 'rules' laid out by Allah, to appease the self-defined way of life of the rest of society.

Again, we will show respect (as described above) - but this does not equate to re-defining what is acceptable.

^ I hope this makes it clearer to the atheists and non-muslims on this forum, so that in future we do not need to harp upon these types of issues (that result in us going in circles, simply because our frame of reference is not understood).


Peace.

 

[Independent]

As muslims, we respect everyone's diversity.

But plainly, you personally don't.

You have dismissed western culture as non existent:

Im not sure if this can actually be called 'culture', or it represents a lack there-of)

And you have stated that western culture is totally without morality:

a lifestyle that is in regression and lacks any fiber of morality.....

 

[faithandpeace]

So back to the topic of niqab...

 

[Berries'forest]

I think it's ultimately a woman's choice what she decides to wear. I have to point out though, despite the fact that Niqab represents a higher level of piety and steadfastness I think we ought to be careful since we can't make out every woman wearing Niqab to be an angel. The same also applies to women who don't adhere to the same islamic dress code for women. I think it would be safer to discuss Niqab from an objective point of view rather than a collective and specific one, because although it is an individual choice that's true but then that doesn't necessarily mean that every woman on earth wearing the Niqab is wearing it out of consent.

 

[faithandpeace]

I think we Muslims often overemphasize that niqab or hijab are choices so that we can appease non-Muslims and uneducated Muslims by telling them that it isn't men forcing these garments on our women. While it is true that most of us are not wearing niqab or hijab because our husbands or fathers made us to and while it is true that in a non-Islamic state a police officer is not going to write a ticket for not wearing these, that does not mean we as Muslims should consider them mere "choices." We are commanded by our Creator to wear hijab and at minimum highly encouraged to wear niqab. Once we have made the conscious decision to submit our wills to Allah (swt) and obey Him, then none of these things including niqab are to be regarded as mere "choices" like Coke or Pepsi. And Allah (swt) knows best.

 

[~Zaria~]

But plainly, you personally don't.

You have dismissed western culture as non existent:



And you have stated that western culture is totally without morality:

If this is as apparently 'disrespectful' as one can get, then alhamdulillah (All praise is due to Allah) for allowing us to recognize the good and bad within society - and thereby, keeping us on the path ordained by Him.

 

[جوري]

If this is as apparently 'disrespectful' as one can get

Actually he's trying to bait you & gather information and if he could in a very meek effort sow a few seeds of doubt. He's not only disrespectful ---!

 

[Pygoscelis]

As muslims, we will never accept that this is 'normal' and acceptable behavior - simply because it goes against the commands of our Creator.
By doing so, we would be essentially making something permissible, which Allah has already decreed as being haraam/ forbidden.
So, this will never be possible for us.

You are under the belief that your God tells you how to live and you find it important to obey, so you wear your religious dress and hide yourselves from the eyes of men. I get that. I am liberal and I have that live and let live philosophy you speak of. So I have no problem with you walking around in a burqa. So long as you are not causing a big security risk, I say you should be free to wear whatever you want. But you would then be so hypocritical as to not support others having the same freedom, and wearing what they want?

Are people in the west right to be concerned about muslims moving into their communities and increasing in number? Some islamophobes I know on another site go on and on about how muslims will take away their freedoms if they ever reach a critical mass and get any semblance of power. Are they right? Should I join them in pushing muslims out?

In every unit of society, there are 'rules' to abide by.
So, if one works at a bank - they would be expected to wear a certain type of attire, according to the rules of that bank.
If the person decides to go to work wearing a G-string, then he/ she will be told to go back home and return in a manner that is acceptable according to that place of occupation (assuming they are not fired already).
The person would not turn around and say: 'Respect me, this is my choice!' (unless he is actually trying to lose his job).

Do you realize that you are making an argument here FOR bans on Islamic dress in western nations? Do you see how you are undercutting the muslimas and others here who are arguing against such bans? Islamic dress is not the norm, and bans would be 'rules' to abide by. Shouldn't these rules make sense and be fair to all?

 

[جوري]

. But you would then be so hypocritical as to not support others having the same freedom, and wearing what they want?

in what way should we support that do you propose? go up to them and applaud them? ;D
A serious case of non-Issue here!

Do you realize that you are making an argument here FOR bans on Islamic dress in western nations?

In fact she's making a case for it. Even in the most 'liberal' societies no one accepts nudity as a norm, there are just gradation of what that coverage entails!

best,

 

[Karl]

All about perception indeed. When many in the west see women dressed head to toe, including masks, they think these women oppressed and radical. Their perception is probably wrong. Yours probably is as well. We should guard against such prejudice.

I would also note that there is a difference between dressing sexy and dressing minimally. A nudist woman who wears no make up and no frills, does not look nearly as sexualized as a much more dressed woman with make up and frills.

In secularist states nakedness and having sexual intercourse in public is illegal, why? Religious people have their tenets and atheists have their science but prudery and self oppression are not scientifically objective, so why do atheists have any hang ups about sex? Scientifically speaking people are just animals so why can they not be totally liberated to do anything sexual in public that their heart desires? Hypocrisy is it? Atheist moral codes are right? Muslim ones are wrong are they? And why do atheists get so hung up about females that want to cover their face?
I think the biggest problem is the lack of tolerance. People are always fighting for the right to enforce their own oppression, their bigotry their order and their moral law.
This has been going on for ages. The Prophet Jesus (PBUH) preached tolerance. But people seem to be getting more intolerant and violent. I suppose it is in their DNA. Nothing stops their rancour.

"I would also note that there is a difference between dressing sexy and dressing minimally. A nudist woman who wears no make up and no frills, does not look nearly as sexualized as a much more dressed woman with make up and frills". That is a subjective statement.

 

[جوري]

Religious people have their tenets and atheists have their science

If atheists had science it would be a saving grace indeed. They're richly & militantly dogmatic and I wish they'd be able to keep with the time rather than resort to antiquated nonsense from 200 years ago. Are you trying to shelter their ego before you drop your bombs?

 

[~Zaria~]

Are people in the west right to be concerned about muslims moving into their communities and increasing in number? Some islamophobes I know on another site go on and on about how muslims will take away their freedoms if they ever reach a critical mass and get any semblance of power. Are they right? Should I join them in pushing muslims out?

Muslims are increasing in number across Europe - this is true, Alhamdulillah.
This is not only due to immigration and birth, but also due to the fact that there are more people reverting to islam than any other religion.
This in itself tells us, that more and more people are recognizing the truth, by the will of Allah, despite media propaganda.

Should it occur that Islam reaches a point of majority within a land, then im sure you will agree that the laws of the land should reflect that of the majority.

Do you realize that you are making an argument here FOR bans on Islamic dress in western nations? Do you see how you are undercutting the muslimas and others here who are arguing against such bans? Islamic dress is not the norm, and bans would be 'rules' to abide by. Shouldn't these rules make sense and be fair to all?

The example used was meant to illustrate to observer that he is agreeable to abide by the laws set out by man (eg at a place of occupation) - even though this would imply that they do not 'respect' a persons choice to dress as they desire in this context.

As muslims, we obey the laws of the land in which we reside - so long as they do not go against the commands of Allah.....in which case, the laws of Allah supersede the laws created by man.

For this reason alone, we will continue to stand strong against the attempts to ban the niqab - as this is the command of Allah upon us.


Peace

 

[سيف الله]

Salaam

If this is as apparently 'disrespectful' as one can get, then alhamdulillah (All praise is due to Allah) for allowing us to recognize the good and bad within society - and thereby, keeping us on the path ordained by Him.

I think this whole 'respect for diversity' idea, no matter how nice it sounds is a flawed way of thinking. You can't respect whatever somebody does. Perhaps it’s better to champion the (now unfashionable) idea of toleration.

---

 

[Karl]

If atheists had science it would be a saving grace indeed. They're richly & militantly dogmatic and I wish they'd be able to keep with the time rather than resort to antiquated nonsense from 200 years ago. Are you trying to shelter their ego before you drop your bombs?

"Science" is also funded by Zionist governments (the West) to support their political agendas. Most of it is modern day false science (not from 1813) to re educate the masses to materialize the Rockefeller totalitarian New World Order.

" Are you trying to shelter their ego before you drop your bombs?" No that was not my intention. I was trying to expose the hypocrisy.
You are right they are very militantly dogmatic and highly aggressive to a fanatically psychotic level. This is because the orchestrators of the NWO has said for a long time that the only way to successfully bring about the NWO would be to preach their godless ideology and moral codes as if it were a religion unto itself.

 

[Pygoscelis]

In secularist states nakedness and having sexual intercourse in public is illegal, why?

The best reason I can think of is sanitation. It isn't sanitary to be having sex in public places, or to be nude in some particular places. The other big reason, and less rational one, is tradition. There are very few places on earth where repressive religion didn't play an important historical role and carried over some taboos to the modern day.

I think the biggest problem is the lack of tolerance. People are always fighting for the right to enforce their own oppression, their bigotry their order and their moral law.

I agree. And we in the west need to guard against that, whatever the source (which can be Islam itself sometimes) as we see above. If we don't have good rational reasons to legally enforce a taboo, then we shouldn't. And "your lifestyle offend me" should not carry any weight, be it directed at muslimas in burqas or at open homosexuals or at others.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Should it occur that Islam reaches a point of majority within a land, then im sure you will agree that the laws of the land should reflect that of the majority.

Tyranny of the majority over minority rights is something we are explicitly supposed to guard against. It is exactly what burqa bans are in some countries with highly anti-muslim sentiments.

As muslims, we obey the laws of the land in which we reside - so long as they do not go against the commands of Allah.....in which case, the laws of Allah supersede the laws created by man.

And were you in power, would you make the same concession to non-muslims? If it were somebody's religion to do something you find unacceptable to Islam, would you allow them to break your laws because their religion demands it? The hypocrisy is thick here.

 

[Pygoscelis]

You should of done that years ago instead of spending your time here. I'm sure the Islamophobes would welcome a kindred spirit with open arms.

Ironically, I came here originally following 9/11, because I doubted them and wanted to listen to actual muslims to see what they say is untrue. For the most part, that has been my experience. But occasionally I run into evidence that supports them well.

 

[Berries'forest]

I think we Muslims often overemphasize that niqab or hijab are choices so that we can appease non-Muslims and uneducated Muslims by telling them that it isn't men forcing these garments on our women. While it is true that most of us are not wearing niqab or hijab because our husbands or fathers made us to and while it is true that in a non-Islamic state a police officer is not going to write a ticket for not wearing these, that does not mean we as Muslims should consider them mere "choices."

Well, Allah did give every human being a free will and the choice to obey or disobey Him. It is a given to human kind in order for them to willingly follow Islam and also observe sincerity. I think what someone does in secret is more important than what they do in public, and it's not very uncommon that some women who claim to be religious may do some otherwise very un-religious things when left unwatched. I think it is very important to understand that just wearing a scarf or garment is not enough. I see some sisters congratulating each other on the terms of their exterior clothing without regarding character and respectively shunning off a sister who they think is not 'good enough' in terms of religious dress code. I see this purely as self-righteousness and self-praising rather than a genuine eagerness in observing Allah swt commands. Moreover, the whole controversy on describing a woman as being half-dressed it is in fact a derogatory term, from one point because when you use this term you're implying that she is lower than you and you are better than her, so that's basically vanity and arrogance, then there's the fact that you're implying that she is a woman of questionable character because it's only semantics and saying that a woman is half-dressed is the same as saying that she is half-naked really the same difference. I can see why some people would consider this disrespectful. Unless of course you can say that with out an iota of disregard than by all means go right ahead I just find it hard to say that about someone while still claiming that I'm not judging them or belittling them, it's merely a way of description.

Rather than hating on women who don't wear what we think is the ultimate card to God's acceptance, why don't we concentrate on our own actions and deeds. Allah won't interrogate you about another woman's behavior or dress code and since this concerns Muslims who live in the west, it seems kind of double-standard that at one point you're asking for you're own rights to be validated and they certainly should be but then at the same time the same people you're asking them to accept you, you deny them and state their spiritual inferiority, well if that's the case then maybe you shouldn't really be around these people and force your self into them. ---

Lastly, though and on a serious note, there is hardly anyone here being objective, in the end Niqab or Hijab or Jihad ..etc won't save you from Hell fire if Allah wishes to sentence you there, and no you'd have to go willy nilly otherwise I'd truly question how many people here are actually being truthful with themselves and if one can object to a sentence made by Allah then they are defying Him by all means. I won't leave it hanging in the air but this is truly why most Muslims today can't stand on a firm ground they resort to defensive positions when it suits them and then use an attack strategy in an attempt to prove that they're infallible. It's really surprising how empathy can be thrown away and judgements can be so quickly issued based on personal disagreements and bias. If a prostitute can go to heaven for quenching a dog's thirst and a 'pious' worshiper can go to hell because she tortured a cat until death. I wouldn't think it wise to consider ourselves better than anyone we meet in the streets, see on television or encounter on a virtual platform.

 

[Independent]

^^ Well said and bravely said in every word.

 

[faithandpeace]

I don't think it is our place as Muslims to judge the totality of one's character on the basis of his or her public acts. Such judgment can only come from Allah (swt). It is our duty as Muslims, however, to determine whether something is sanctioned in Islam or not and use our sources as our guide for this determination and proper Islamic etiquette when calling someone in error back to the straight path. There are public sins and private sins. We advise about private sins through educating ourselves and others about Islam to encourage right conduct. Every Muslim sins privately or publicly at some time or another but regardless of the amount or severity of the sins, we are obligated to try to improve ourselves and encourage others to improve as well. This does not of course include publicizing our own or other people's sins that would otherwise be private. Sins done in public not only are between the one doing them and Allah (swt) but also negatively influence others who witness them by encouraging them to commit the same acts.

Just as Islamic observance includes believing in the six pillars of iman and following the five pillars, we also are to adhere to the sharia and established fiqh and implement it where possible. Therefore, pointing out that someone not in niqab, hijab, or other attire when they should be is not (or should not be) judging their character or their iman or their status with Allah (swt) but instead is a notification that they are not in compliance with the Islamic code of conduct and an encouragement to bring themselves into compliance. If this offends people I suggest checking one's understanding of Islam that this is not a "pick and choose" religion but submitting our wills to our Creator and obeying His laws. Niqab or hijab are certainly not the only things in Islam, but they do matter and cannot just be casually discarded because other aspects of the faith may seem easier to follow or more relevant at the time. And Allah (swt) knows best.