Unbelievers?

[Seekingtruth]

I've come up my own conclusion regarding this subject and its that Allah I all knowing, Allah knows best and of which we do not and to have trust and faith in Allah

 

[glo]

So this means that the prayer/supplication/invocation was accepted and answered, including the hardening of Pharoah's heart, excatly as per the supplication, until he saw death in front of him and then declared he wanted to believe, when it was too late.

Thank you for highlighting this verse. It had escaped me earlier.

This sounds more like the hardening of Pharaoh's heart was done by God at Moses' request. Would that be your understanding?
That sounds as if Pharaoh is the passive party in this situation.

Which kind of goes back to my original question. "Was Pharaoh intended (by God) to the bad guy in this story so it could work out as planned? Did he (Pharaoh) have any choice in his actions and decisions?"

 

[glo]

I've come up my own conclusion regarding this subject and its that Allah I all knowing, Allah knows best and of which we do not and to have trust and faith in Allah

I agree. There is much we cannot possibly understand until we meet our Creator face to face.
Still, I like to ponder these questions.

Allah alim

 

[جوري]

It had escaped me earlier.

To put it in the simplest terms for you, the pharaoh was a bad guy of his own free will, he was invited in the gentlest of manners and he continued being bad, he was even given dreams and various signs, but he chose to act on his dream by killing the male born children of Banu Israel, he chose to torture even his high priests who embraced monotheism. They were bad all along but changed. Everyone has free will, everyone has the ability to make supplication and ask for guidance, everyone has a chance to change all the way up to the end but not at the very end!

best,

 

[Insaanah]

I've come up my own conclusion regarding this subject and its that Allah I all knowing, Allah knows best and of which we do not and to have trust and faith in Allah

Alhamdulillah (All praise be to Allah). In addition to that, Allah is the Most Just. He will not wrong anyone, not even by a dot or a spot:

And guard yourselves against a day in which ye will be brought back to Allah. Then every soul will be paid in full that which it hath earned, and they will not be wronged. (2:281)

So how will it be when We assemble them for a Day about which there is no doubt? And each soul will be compensated [in full for] what it earned, and they will not be wronged. (3:25)

...Then will every soul be [fully] compensated for what it earned, and they will not be wronged. (3:161)

Whoever comes [on the Day of Judgement] with a good deed will have ten times the like thereof [to his credit], and whoever comes with an evil deed will not be recompensed except the like thereof; and they will not be wronged. (6:160)

And if each soul that wronged had everything on earth, it would offer it in ransom. And they will confide regret when they see the punishment; and they will be judged in justice, and they will not be wronged. (10:54)

On the Day when every soul will come pleading for itself, and every soul will be repaid what it did, and they will not be wronged. (16:111)

And We charge no soul except [with that within] its capacity, and with Us is a record which speaks with truth; and they will not be wronged. (26:32)

And the earth will shine with the light of its Lord, and the record [of deeds] will be placed, and the prophets and the witnesses will be brought, and it will be judged between them in truth, and they will not be wronged. (39:69)

And Allah has created the heavens and the earth with truth, in order that each person may be recompensed what he has earned, and they will not be wronged. (45:22)

And for all there are degrees [of reward and punishment] for what they have done, and [it is] so that He may fully compensate them for their deeds, and they will not be wronged. (46:19)

 

[greenhill]

I mentioned Pharaoh in my earlier post. Unfortunately that bit was removed, because it was relying on a Bible passage.

I posted a thread on 'sealing of the hearts' and Zaria too before me, several months back (mine and a lot earlier for Zaria).

When we read the Quran in snippets, we will get answers in snippets. It may not be totally reflective of the question we want answers to. When we look at sealing of the heart and use Pharaoh as an example, we often look at the fate of his sealed heart rather than to question why was his heart sealed? It was not a sudden thing where Allah decided arbitrarily to seal his heart. Pharaoh was given ample chances, he was given plenty of proofs, and only reverted when impending gloom and only to become arrogant again after the disaster was averted. In the end, Pharaoh never wanted to accept the truth hence Allah sealed his heart.

He realised his folly when it was too late. The sealing of the heart does not come suddenly and without reason. There has to be contributing actions of our own that will lead to it, likewise, opposite can happen if we pursue the truth..

Peace :shade:

 

[glo]

He realised his folly when it was too late. The sealing of the heart does not come suddenly and without reason. There has to be contributing actions of our own that will lead to it, likewise, opposite can happen if we pursue the truth..

Thanks greenhill. I assume your are referring to these verses:

[Pickthal 10:90]
And We brought the Children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh with his hosts pursued them in rebellion and transgression, till, when the (fate of) drowning overtook him, he exclaimed: I believe that there is no Allah save Him in Whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who surrender (unto Him).
آلْآنَ وَقَدْ عَصَيْتَ قَبْلُ وَكُنْتَ مِنَ الْمُفْسِدِينَ {91}
[Pickthal 10:91]
What! Now! When hitherto thou hast rebelled and been of the wrong-doers?
فَالْيَوْمَ نُنَجِّيكَ بِبَدَنِكَ لِتَكُونَ لِمَنْ خَلْفَكَ آيَةً ۚ وَإِنَّ كَثِيرًا مِنَ النَّاسِ عَنْ آيَاتِنَا لَغَافِلُونَ {92}
[Pickthal 10:92]
But this day We save thee in thy body that thou mayst be a portent for those after thee. Lo! most of mankind are heedless of Our portents

Is this the only example of Allah not granting forgiveness to somebody who declares Shahadah? or are there other examples?
Do we have to assume that Pharaoh was not truly repentant or that his sins would have been forgiven otherwise?

Does "we save thee in thy body" mean that Pharaoh survived? And if so, do we know what happened to him afterwards?

 

[Insaanah]

Is this the only example of Allah not granting forgiveness to somebody who declares Shahadah? or are there other examples?

You cannot declare your shaahdah once you've seen the angels of death. It's too late.

Do we have to assume that Pharaoh was not truly repentant or that his sins would have been forgiven otherwise?

We don't need to be doing any assuming, because Allah is judge, not us. If you read the links I posted earlier, you will know that Allah knows what a person would and wouldn't have done in any situation as He knows the past present and future. Thus the Ifs or what would otherwise have happened are not our concern. We limit ourselves to what Allah told us about Him, and we don't go beyond that.

Does "we save thee in thy body" mean that Pharaoh survived?

No. He drowned.

And if so, do we know what happened to him afterwards?

His body was found and preserved.

 

[glo]

No. He drowned.
His body was found and preserved.

Thank you.What does the sentence "But this day We save thee in thy body that thou mayst be a portent for those after thee" mean?

 

[greenhill]

"But this day We save thee in thy body that thou mayst be a portent for those after thee" mean?

That Allah preserves the body of the Pharaoh as proof for future generations, like us.

Your quote goes on to say "Lo! Most mankind are heedless of Our portents". Which is true also.

Peace :shade:

 

[glo]

Ah, that makes sense, greenhill.

Thanks for all who have been patient with me in this thread. It's much appreciated.

 

[Nur Student]

10:91

Sahih International
Now? And you had disobeyed [Him] before and were of the corrupters?

10:92

Sahih International
So today We will save you in body that you may be to those who succeed you a sign. And indeed, many among the people, of Our signs, are heedless.

 

[Signor]

Greetings glo

So does God create people with closed/sealed/hardened hearts who are simply destined to lead the life of an unbeliever and suffer eternal punishment in the end?

This sounds more like the hardening of Pharaoh's heart was done by God at Moses' request. Would that be your understanding?
That sounds as if Pharaoh is the passive party in this situation.

Which kind of goes back to my original question. "Was Pharaoh intended (by God) to the bad guy in this story so it could work out as planned? Did he (Pharaoh) have any choice in his actions and decisions?"

I don't know whats being edited but it seems like you are even unaware of Story of Moses(A.S) and Pharoah from Bible

From Exodus 6-10,KJV

3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said.

14 And the Lord said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.

22 And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the Lord had said.

15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said.

19 Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said.

32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

12 And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had spoken unto Moses.

34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. (Poster's Note;See this is how hearts got hardened/sealed/closed when you deny HIS Signs)

35 And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the Lord had spoken by Moses.

10 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him

20 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.

27 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.

Back to Quran

[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][Pickthal 10:88] [/SIZE][/SIZE]And Moses said: Our Lord! Lo! Thou hast given Pharaoh and his chiefs splendour and riches in the life of the world, Our Lord! that they may lead men astray from Thy way. Our Lord! Destroy their riches and harden their hearts so that they believe not till they see the painful doom.

[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1][Pickthal 10:89][/SIZE][/SIZE] HE said: Your prayer is heard. Do ye twain keep to the straight path, and follow not the road of those who have no knowledge.

Got the point??

Does "we save thee in thy body" mean that Pharaoh survived? And if so, do we know what happened to him afterwards?

Do you believe in Bible??

From Exodus 15,KJV

19 For the horse of Pharaoh went in with his chariots and with his horsemen into the sea, and the Lord brought again the waters of the sea upon them; but the children of Israel went on dry land in the midst of the sea.

And nearly the same has also been mentioned in Psalm 78:53 and Psalm 106:11

When Francisco Mitra became the president of France in 1981. France requested from the Egyptian government to host the mummy of Pharaoh. For the purpose of running laboratory and archeological examinations on the mummy of the most notorious dictator ever lived on earth. Upon arrival, a very royal attendants were there including the French president himself and all ministers who bowed in honor for the mummy.

When the ceremony ended, the mummy was carried to a specially-designed section at the Archeology Centre of France where it started to be tested by the greatest French archeological and anatomical scientists in order to discover more about such a great mummy. The scientists were headed by Professor Maurice Bucaille. Scientists were trying to restore the mummy while Professor Maurice was mainly concerned with how did this mummy die!


The final report of the scientists was released late at night which states that the remaining salt in the mummy is an overt evidence that it was drawn in the sea, and the body was rescued very shortly where it was immediately embalmed to be saved.


An amazing thing was still confusing Professor Maurice is that how could this body possibly be safer than any other mummy despite being taken out of the sea up until this time

Keep this in mind NOT MUMMIFIED but DROWN in SEA(this is how we both believe)

What does the sentence "But this day We save thee in thy body that thou mayst be a portent for those after thee" mean?

His body was found and preserved.

There you go....

For a more detailed analysis,visit this link

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/mosespharaoh.html

 

[Muhaba]

Thanks for your detailed and informative reply.

I mentioned Pharaoh in my earlier post. Unfortunately that bit was removed, because it was relying on a Bible passage.

So I need to ask whether according to Islam Pharaoh had his heart hardened by God in order to prevent Moses and his people from leaving Egypt?

If I understand your answer correctly, then he term 'having one's heart sealed/hardened/closed' is not so much an act by God but an act we commit ourselves through disbelief and actions which go against God's commands?

God doesn't play games. He wasn't playing some joke by sending Moses to pharaoh while hardening pharaoh's heart so he wouldn't listen. In Chapter 20 (Taha), it is written:


Go, both of you, to Pharaoh. Indeed, he has transgressed. And speak to him with gentle speech that perhaps he may be reminded or fear [ Allah ]." (20: 43 - 44)

The fact is that a person's actions and intentions are what harden a person's heart. When a person gets information about the Truth and then knowingly doesn't pay heed, their hearts harden and their eyes and ears are covered. No one's born with hardened hearts. Pharaoh was shown many signs many times and he had realized clearly that Moses was correct and he was wrong. Everytime he was given some form of miraculous punishment ( a sign) he would say to Prophet Moses to ask God to remove the punishment and then he would be believe but when the punishment was removed, he continued to transgress. Finally, he was drowned. So pharaoh had knowingly belied the truth. God hadn't done him any injustice. What pharaoh got he deserved.

And they said, "No matter what sign you bring us with which to bewitch us, we will not be believers in you."
So We sent upon them the flood and locusts and lice and frogs and blood as distinct signs, but they were arrogant and were a criminal people.
And when the punishment descended upon them, they said, "O Moses, invoke for us your Lord by what He has promised you. If you [can] remove the punishment from us, we will surely believe you, and we will send with you the Children of Israel."
But when We removed the punishment from them until a term which they were to reach, then at once they broke their word.
So We took retribution from them, and We drowned them in the sea because they denied Our signs and were heedless of them. (7:132 - 136)

Read the story of Pharaoh and Prophet Moses in chapter 7 verses 103 - 136

 

[glo]

I don't know whats being edited but it seems like you are even unaware of Story of Moses(A.S) and Pharoah from Bible
From Exodus 6-10,KJV

I am aware of the Bible story and made reference to it in my first post. But these comments were removed by mods - possibly because they have no place in the clarifications about Islam section.

Anyway, I think my questions from an Islamic persepctive have been answered. Thank you.

 

[greenhill]

But what if someone's simply born into a different society, has never heard of Islam, and lives a perfectly good life? I'm a Muslim, but I simply don't believe that God would send someone to hell, based on not being a Muslim.

This is something I wrote about in a thread "Burn in Hell" sometime this year. I would not repeat it as the points are already there (sharing your same concerns).

There is another point which I would like to add is that it matters not how we CAME into the world but how we LEAVE the world. People born as muslims can leave the religion as much as people born of other faith revert. There is proof here in this forum of people born in other faith despite their strict upbringing find their calling in islam and in my own country there are many cases of muslims becoming murtad...:hmm:

Peace :shade:

 

[glo]

The fact is that a person's actions and intentions are what harden a person's heart.

That is very profound, Writer.

Surely this is a comment we should all ponder on.
I see much hatred and anger in human beings. Perhaps we bring this upon ourselves by our own actions - working ourselves deeper into animosities, hatred and division, rather than allowing God to ease our hearts and give us peace.

Your comment has given me much thought and joy first thing in the morning. Thank you.

God's peace and ease be with you all this day and every day! :statisfie

 

[greenhill]

Glo,

Perhaps we bring this upon ourselves by our own actions - working ourselves deeper into ****, **** and division, rather than allowing God to ease our hearts and give us peace.

(removed those words because I don't see it you)

Why don't you 'soften' your heart and let the pure message take you to a higher place and see where the Quran fills the gaps that are in the Bible, and straightens the crooked path and let Allah ease your heart and give you peace?

It is the same God, after all, Eloh to the Jews and Allah to muslims.

Peace :shade:

 

[glo]

Thank you, greenhill.

Here we are making the claim that drawing closer to God softens our heart and makes us more gentle, peaceful and loving (at least that's how I see it).
Why then, do so many 'religious' and 'zealous' people (I mean people from any religion, no religion in particular) express so much hatred and anger in the name of their God and their religion? I see it here in this forum and in many other places ...

 

[greenhill]

Why don't you 'soften' your heart and let the pure message take you to a higher place and see where the Quran fills the gaps that are in the Bible, and straightens the crooked path and let Allah ease your heart and give you peace?

Glo,

I sincerely apologise. Uncalled for. :sorry:

But on the zealous matter, in this day an age would be 'over zealous' as zealous almost does not exist anymore . We are in an age of excesses, with that extremisms in everything. Compound that with the close proximity of people, whether in the cramped spaces of the city or people reaching out across the globe in the cyber world, there's gonna be heat. That is going to happen in any community. People will have their skew on things and have different ways to express themselves. I see that too, the anger. But then, it's their anger.. what else can I say?

Peace to you Glo