Good works and Religion

[Muhammad]

Greetings Independent,

Thanks for your patience.

I take it from your replies that those who say that non belief is a total barrier are wrong. In reading around this I came across this link which I thought explained things well and is very interesting about the meaning of the term 'kufr' - very possibly it's wrong in some way I can't tell but here it is anyway:

As I understand it, this states that non believers will be judged at the appointed time and may indeed enter heaven, as might a practicing Muslim. Please correct me if I'm wrong. From past comments in various threads, I'm quite sure that not all Muslims believe this.

In general terms, non-belief is a total barrier to Paradise because it defies the very purpose of our existence. The only religion acceptable to God is that which He sent His Final Messenger :saws: with and revealed in His Final Revelation. The hadith mentions people who had genuine excuses for not knowing about Islam. So when it comes to specific cases, we cannot say that a particular person is going to Paradise or Hell, unless it is has been mentioned through revelation.

From some replies, it does feel like that. I am trying to understand what comes from Islam, and what stems from the misunderstanding of individual Muslims. But it's hard for me as a non Muslim, as I am continually being told how fabulously ignorant and incapable I am of being able to understand the smallest thing about Islam. (Not by you personally.) When someone tells me that any good deed by any non Muslim is always done for selfish reasons (and this has been said) I can't help but feel that this is indeed arrogance, as well as being manifestly untrue.

Muslims have the duty to deal with non-Muslims in a merciful and kind manner, and to call them to the way of truth in a good way. What tends to happen in threads is the development of mistrust and personal wars, so it is sad that we lose sight of the bigger picture sometimes. In any case, it is good you make a distinction between what comes from Islam and what comes from individual Muslims. Even in my own posts, I do not claim to always be right as my knowledge is very limited. I can only speak to the best of what little I know and I seek Allaah :swt:'s forgiveness if I say anything incorrect.

 

[Muhaba]

Every good work has to be done exclusively for God's sake for it to be accepted. If it is done for a different reason, even by Muslims, it will not be accepted by God. For example, a person may give a lot of money in charity and thereby help many people, but if the reason is that people will consider him generous or good, then such charity isn't accepted. If you want reward from God you have to do the good deed for God's sake.

Another thing is that unbelievers are given chances of realizing that Islam is the truth. If they deliberately ignore the truth of Islam when realizing that it is the truth, then how can they ask God for Heaven? How many times has your mind said to you 'this seems to be true?' You should answer this sincerely. What was your response. Did you consider it with sincerity? Did you decide to sincerely do some research to get more information? Or did you block such thoughts out altogether without given any further consideration?

I understand that belief alone is not enough and that no Muslim is guaranteed paradise. But what about the reverse case? What interests me in this thread is whether non-belief is a total barrier - an exclusion clause - no matter what the character of the individual or the reason for their non belief.

Yes nonbelief is a total barrier. That should make you worried about your future and make you study islam sincerely.

 

[greenhill]

Another thing is that unbelievers are given chances of realizing that Islam is the truth. If they deliberately ignore the truth of Islam when realizing that it is the truth, then how can they ask God for Heaven? How many times has your mind said to you 'this seems to be true?' You should answer this sincerely. What was your response. Did you consider it with sincerity? Did you decide to sincerely do some research to get more information? Or did you block such thoughts out altogether without given any further consideration?

Very simply put. This is the real issue in my mind that is hard to express (without appearing to be bigoted) which often puts people off the idea of islam as it 'seems' unfair to them. In fact, the message is clear, and Allah is The Most Merciful but yet they don't accept and hence they reject the 'core' message because it does not fit into their own ideals of what is fair.

What is the 'core' message? There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is His messenger. What is wrong with that message?

Peace :shade:

 

[glo]

IHow many times has your mind said to you 'this seems to be true?' You should answer this sincerely. What was your response. Did you consider it with sincerity? Did you decide to sincerely do some research to get more information? Or did you block such thoughts out altogether without given any further consideration?

Interestingly enough, I think atheists would use exactly the same argument against religious belief and suggest that believers blindly cling on to their beliefs without facing the inner niggling doubt (even knowledge?) which says that it all made up and untrue ...

 

[Independent]

Every good work has to be done exclusively for God's sake for it to be accepted. If it is done for a different reason, even by Muslims, it will not be accepted by God.

Just when I think I have something settled in my mind, it all unravels again.

Any statement that suggests that only Muslims are capable of virtuous acts, and that all acts by non Muslims are for selfish reasons, must inevitably be seen as arrogant by non Muslims. In fact it's just about the most extreme claim I've ever heard from any religion. Many religions say they give the only entry to Paradise, but I've never heard of one claiming that no one else is capable of being moral at all.

Yes nonbelief is a total barrier.

This surely contradicts the hadith I quoted above?

What was your response. Did you consider it with sincerity? Did you decide to sincerely do some research to get more information? Or did you block such thoughts out altogether without given any further consideration?

Since joining this forum I have read the Qu'ran and multiple other books and articles with Islamic connections. I've ordered a few more books to read for Christmas (which now i think about it is a bit weird!). If I was persuaded by what I read, i wouldn't stop myself from following that road.

Strangely enough, the thing I find hardest to accept overall is (I admit) relatively trivial. It's the music. When I listen to a work like Thomas Tallis's 'Spem in Alium', I feel I am at my best as a person. How could any God reject this? I understand the arguments, I've read the threads, but I'm just telling you that's my total 100% reaction, every part of me rejects it. And of course, that makes everything else unravel.

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Any statement that suggests that only Muslims are capable of virtuous acts, and that all acts by non Muslims are for selfish reasons, must inevitably be seen as arrogant by non Muslims.

I didn't see how the post implied this.

This surely contradicts the hadith I quoted above?

It's possible for them to be true together.

Since joining this forum I have read the Qu'ran and multiple other books and articles with Islamic connections. I've ordered a few more books to read for Christmas (which now i think about it is a bit weird!). If I was persuaded by what I read, i wouldn't stop myself from following that road.

It is great that you are learning about Islam and have read the Qur'an. When reading the Qur'an, one must have a receptive heart seeking the truth. It is an address directed to the reader from God. Bearing these things in mind will help a person get more benefit from reading the Qur'an :ia:.

Strangely enough, the thing I find hardest to accept overall is (I admit) relatively trivial. It's the music. When I listen to a work like Thomas Tallis's 'Spem in Alium', I feel I am at my best as a person. How could any God reject this? I understand the arguments, I've read the threads, but I'm just telling you that's my total 100% reaction, every part of me rejects it. And of course, that makes everything else unravel.

Nobody is perfect and even some Muslims struggle with music. That is not to say they cannot continue being Muslims or that a person cannot become a Muslim on account of it. After all, we are talking about salvation and eternal punishment in the hereafter - it's better to be a sinful believer than not a believer at all.

Can you accept that the Prophet Muhammad :saws: was a true Prophet and that the Qur'an was revealed from Allaah :swt: ?

 

[Independent]

I didn't see how the post implied this.

I suppose there are two levels here. You could say the acts are virtuous, but not 'accepted' (because not 'offered'). Or you could go further, as some are doing here, and say that not being 'accepted' devalues them as acts altogether and they are to be looked on as purely 'selfish'.

It's possible for them to be true together

I don't understand how?

Can you accept that the Prophet Muhammad was a true Prophet and that the Qur'an was revealed from Allaah

The obstacle I have over music is more of a symbolic barrier for me, but my reasons for it are anything but trivial. I don't want to go into big detail because I don't think this is the right place. But in relation to the music prohibition, I am not convinced by the reliability of the hadith tradition and the underlying principle of imitating the life of the Prophet in every detail.

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings Independent,

I suppose there are two levels here. You could say the acts are virtuous, but not 'accepted' (because not 'offered'). Or you could go further, as some are doing here, and say that not being 'accepted' devalues them as acts altogether and they are to be looked on as purely 'selfish'.

Saying that a deed is not accepted by God does not automatically mean it was done for a selfish reason (unless your definition of selfish is anything other than for the sake of God). I think you jumped too far ahead when you also assumed this means 'only Muslims are capable of virtuous acts, and that all acts by non Muslims are for selfish reasons'.

I don't understand how?

The hadith doesn't say that non-believers will go to heaven. It mentions that those who genuinely had an excuse for not knowing about Islam will be tested in their own way.

But in relation to the music prohibition, I am not convinced by the reliability of the hadith tradition and the underlying principle of imitating the life of the Prophet in every detail.

So the issue is less about music and more about Islamic sources. If a person accepts the Qur'an as the Word of God and the Prophet :saws: as the Final Messenger of God, then everything else will follow naturally. The Qur'an tells us that the Messenger :saws: is an example to be followed (he implemented the Qur'an in his character and actions) and that his teachings were inspired by God. The hadith tradition is a very in-depth subject and the best way to remove any doubt is to study it and see for yourself. And avoid anti-hadith sites which simply regurgitate myths and distortions.

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings Eric,

Thanks for your explanation.

If the priests could have looked beyond their law to the 'Spirit of the Law' they would have helped the wounded man, it seems that Jesus was challenging which is greater, religious duties, or human needs

In Islam, we are taught to aim for a balance between the letter as well as the spirit of the law. We are commanded to accept Islam completely; not to act upon one thing and leave the other. We must guard against only accepting the belief and neglecting the deeds and morals, as well as only adopting deeds and morals whilst neglecting the belief. The commandments of God apply to all walks of life - in our prayers, in matters of marriage, divorce, maintenance of dependants, dealing with friends and enemies, in peace and war, and so on. With this holistic view in mind, we should see that attending to human need - even environmental needs - is itself a religious duty.

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings glo,

Interestingly enough, I think atheists would use exactly the same argument against religious belief and suggest that believers blindly cling on to their beliefs without facing the inner niggling doubt (even knowledge?) which says that it all made up and untrue ...

The same argument may be made to both sides, but the question is who has a foundation to stand on. The cure for doubt is knowledge, so we should look at what answers and evidences are presented. Islam is a religion that is built on firm foundations. As mentioned in other threads, among the conditions of the testimony of faith is having certainty and knowledge. Moreover, the Qur'an repeatedly and boldly challenges mankind in various ways, and responds to their various claims. Thus, truth should empower one with confidence and conviction, not give rise to niggling doubts.

 

[Independent]

Greetings Muhammad

So the issue is less about music and more about Islamic sources. If a person accepts the Qur'an as the Word of God and the Prophet as the Final Messenger of God, then everything else will follow naturally. The Qur'an tells us that the Messenger is an example to be followed (he implemented the Qur'an in his character and actions) and that his teachings were inspired by God. The hadith tradition is a very in-depth subject and the best way to remove any doubt is to study it and see for yourself. And avoid anti-hadith sites which simply regurgitate myths and distortions.

Unfortunately my issues are much wider than this.

At the one end, as I say, I can't understand why any God would prohibit such a wonderful thing as our capacity for music.

But this is not an isolated or random prohibitiion, it connects up. When I look for an explanation or framework for it, I find it lies especially in a hadith tradition which I find historically suspect. (In fact many of the aspects of Islam I am most sceptical about come from hadiths.)

However, my scepticism runs deeper than that. I have issues with the historicity of the Qu'ran, which also has a big academic debate around it. (My views about this are not fixed, they change as i learn more.)

Putting the history on one side - I know Muslims also consider Islam to be proven by many signs etc. But when I look at these signs they don't convince me in the same way. (Especially the declared scientific signs which, to my eyes, have been so tremendously overstated that when they are offered as proofs they have the exact opposite effect on me.)

Most fundamentally of all - I have to be truthful - when I read the Qu'ran and I ask myself the question: "do i feel these are the actual, literal words of God?" I have to answer that I do not. These are my honest reactions, i can't pretend otherwise, I can't help them and i can't deny them.

 

[crimsontide06]

Yes, as they were not good and kind enough to worship their Lord who created them and gave them everything.

What about those who are born and raised into a religion, and believe in their heart that Jesus=God...and THEN they live a good life...all they hear about Islam are the bad representations...etc

I asked a christian friend what would she feel if in the afterlife she realized she was wrong...etc...she got really angry and said Jesus helped her through her past issues and that she cannot fathom what I was asking her to think of....then she said she would pray for me..lol

 

[glo]

None of us have complete proof and assurance of what the afterlife will hold or indeed that it exists.
There are accounts of people having died and having some afterlife experience before returning to the body, but those cannot be proven.
Neuroscientists will tell you that these events may be due to changes in the brain activity as it is close to dying.

However convinced we are that there is an afterlife, even sure of what it will look like - we should be honest and admit that we have no proof of it.
Yes, we have Holy Scripture and stories from our prophets - but again, those are not proof in the scientific sense.

I think we do best if we lead a life which - to the best our our own knowledge and understanding - will please God. If we got the theology wrong, we will need to throw ourselves a this mercy!

 

[greenhill]

Most fundamentally of all - I have to be truthful - when I read the Qu'ran and I ask myself the question: "do i feel these are the actual, literal words of God?" I have to answer that I do not. These are my honest reactions, i can't pretend otherwise, I can't help them and i can't deny them.

Don't know if this will help. The Qur'an was revealed when a situation warranted it. To give a message to the prophet (saws) how to deal with a situation. Some as a warning, some as reminders, some as prayers etc. It is all compiled now and we read without guidance and without context, and we are likely to miss the point totally.

Peace :shade:

 

[Muhaba]

Interestingly enough, I think atheists would use exactly the same argument against religious belief and suggest that believers blindly cling on to their beliefs without facing the inner niggling doubt (even knowledge?) which says that it all made up and untrue ...

Have you clung to your beliefs in this manner? That is, have you thought some other belief seemed true but clung onto your faith blindly? I've never felt this way. For example, I never thought the Christian belief of trinity or Jesus being God was true. The more I explore the Islamic belief and learn about other beliefs, I see how true the Islamic beliefs are and how wrong other beliefs are.

If anyone has asked themselves whether the theory of evolution could be correct and we weren't created by God, it's because they not only have no knowledge of religious faith but also they have no knowledge of nature. God tells us repeatedly in the Quran to look at His Signs in the universe and in man's own self. A bit of study of nature (for example the human body) can tell you that this could not have come into being by itself. That some Wise and All-Powerful Being made this happen.

I doubt that those with knowledge question their Islamic faith. It's those who have no knowledge who might, not because the Islamic faith is wrong but because they have no knowledge. As for unbelievers (Christians, atheists, etc), they no doubt wonder whether some other faith might be true but then blindly cling to their beliefs without acquiring knowledge sincerely.

The difference between islam and other beliefs is that one grows stronger in the Islamic faith the more knowledge they get. While the other faiths get weaker the more knowledge one gets.

 

[glo]

Have you clung to your beliefs in this manner? That is, have you thought some other belief seemed true but clung onto your faith blindly?

No, I haven't.

The point I was making was that this conviction of "I am right, so everybody who believes otherwise must be wrong ... and if they were only honest with themselves and explored the matter carefully enough, they would come to the same conclusion as me" exists in all religions and worldviews (even atheism).

Personally, I think it is very simplistic and things are really more complicated than that.

 

[Muhaba]

Greetings Muhammad



Unfortunately my issues are much wider than this.

At the one end, as I say, I can't understand why any God would prohibit such a wonderful thing as our capacity for music.

Music is a great ill and it has many drawbacks, many of which may not be known to us at this time. music is the cause of so much evil. Furthermore, it's not just Islam that forbids music. In fact, early church also forbid musical instruments and only chants were allowed. Later on, after much debating did the church allow musical instruments. And since all major religions were revealed by the One God, therefore, they were one in their teachings. God informed us through His many Prophets (including Jesus and Muhammad -PBUH) that music was not allowed.

If you study the history of music, you'll see that music isn't a blessed profession - so many musicians and composers died young, many under the age of 40!

But this is not an isolated or random prohibitiion, it connects up. When I look for an explanation or framework for it, I find it lies especially in a hadith tradition which I find historically suspect. (In fact many of the aspects of Islam I am most sceptical about come from hadiths.)

How can you find hadith 'historically suspect?' The fact that Muslims all over the world agree on so many hadith clearly show the credibility of those hadith. Many hadith came down from generation to generation, until they reached our generation, so that it's impossible to doubt such hadith. Muslims are unified on so many things that alone shows our religion is the true one. Take the method of fasting and praying, the basic hijab, etc.

The compilation of hadith and the way it was authenticated in the early years of Islam is truly unique in history.

However, my scepticism runs deeper than that. I have issues with the historicity of the Qu'ran, which also has a big academic debate around it. (My views about this are not fixed, they change as i learn more.)

You are getting your information from the wrong sources and such sources will only mislead you and drive you deeper into obscurity.

Putting the history on one side - I know Muslims also consider Islam to be proven by many signs etc. But when I look at these signs they don't convince me in the same way. (Especially the declared scientific signs which, to my eyes, have been so tremendously overstated that when they are offered as proofs they have the exact opposite effect on me.)

Most fundamentally of all - I have to be truthful - when I read the Qu'ran and I ask myself the question: "do i feel these are the actual, literal words of God?" I have to answer that I do not. These are my honest reactions, i can't pretend otherwise, I can't help them and i can't deny them.

First of all, the Quran in Arabic is the Word of God. In all other languages, it is just a translation. And a translation can never do the original justice. The original Arabic Quran surpasses every piece of writing, that is how unique and awesome it is! There is simply nothing like it. Nonetheless, one can get guidance from the translation as well.

2. The Quran is not a stand-alone book. God didn't just reveal the Book. He also sent His Messenger along with it to explain it and to show us how to follow God's Commands. Furthermore, the verses were revealed according to situation, so knowledge of the historical context is also necessary for thorough understanding.
A third thing is that the Quran was revealed in the form of a speech and not a written book so any interjections require explanations. Finally, it's important you read the last chapters first because they are shorter and because they were addressed to unbelievers initially. The beginning chapters are very long and contain the Islamic law and were addressed to the Muslims.

But you also have to read the Quran with an open mind, seeking guidance. Many unbelievers have become Muslims just by opening the translation of the Quran and reading it. I don't know how you say that you don't feel it is the Word of God when so many unbelievers understood by just reading the Quran's translation alone that it was not a human-made book.

 

[جوري]

Music is a great ill

:arabic7:
people have to go through a very traumatic thing to fully understand the ills of that loot of the devil and I am someone who grew up playing the piano and other instruments per school curriculum.
I had a very bad experience recently and lapsed, I was listening to Adele and other crap around the clock, it can drive a person to madness and possession & suicide. I couldn't stop weeping :alhamd after a while of numbness it was almost like horrible background noise to me and the words earthbound and meaningless.
There is a reason the Quran is said to be a cure for what ails mankind. And if you keep with it with all honestly :Allah::swt: makes the spirit soar aloft in lieu of the body being bound to the ills of the earth.
I don't expect a person who hasn't experienced that to understand that. That is why people who are devoutly religious have the lowest rates of depression and suicide.
When people choose a life away from God, or create the sort of god out of their desires to suit their whims, they're to be pitied, they walk their life lost and in confusion. Surely words to them are meaningless, they are merely looking in their obstinacy to one-up you nothing more nothing less- and it is the sort of vain discourse that offers nothing to the self or others.

 

[Muhaba]

:arabic7:
people have to go through a very traumatic thing to fully understand the ills of that loot of the devil and I am someone who grew up playing the piano and other instruments per school curriculum.
I had a very bad experience recently and lapsed, I was listening to Adele and other crap around the clock, it can drive a person to madness and possession & suicide. I couldn't stop weeping :alhamd after a while of numbness it was almost like horrible background noise to me and the words earthbound and meaningless.
There is a reason the Quran is said to be a cure for what ails mankind. And if you keep with it with all honestly :Allah::swt: makes the spirit soar aloft in lieu of the body being bound to the ills of the earth.
I don't expect a person who hasn't experienced that to understand that. That is why people who are devoutly religious have the lowest rates of depression and suicide.
When people choose a life away from God, or create the sort of god out of their desires to suit their whims, they're to be pitied, they walk their life lost and in confusion. Surely words to them are meaningless, they are merely looking in their obstinacy to one-up you nothing more nothing less- and it is the sort of vain discourse that offers nothing to the self or others.

I agree with you 100%. I remember a time in my life when I listened to music and I used to be so upset in those days. I remember once 'the Power of Love' was playing and I couldn't hear a thing because I was just crying throughout the song. I'd replay it and again I wouldn't hear a thing but I was getting more and more upset.

There are a few hadith regarding this. One states that demons are appointed on the person playing and they beat him on the chest and don't stop until he stops playing music. in another hadith, some companions asked the Prophet that when they listened to music they couldn't sleep but when they listen to (or recite) the Quran, they quickly fall asleep. The Prophet replied that listening to music was like lying on a bed of thorns, so the listener (or player) couldn't sleep due to the disturbance it causes. while listening to (or reciting) the Quran is like lying on a bed of cushions. the listener quickly falls asleep because of the comfort! I've myself experienced this. Listening to or reciting the Quran makes one fall asleep very fast.

 

[observer]

The difference between islam and other beliefs is that one grows stronger in the Islamic faith the more knowledge they get. While the other faiths get weaker the more knowledge one gets.

Wow. How incredibly arrogant! I think you'll find there are many, many Christians / Hindus / Sikhs / etc. who, the more they learn about their faith, the more they believe them. To deny that is just crazy.