Good works and Religion

[Independent]

Many unbelievers have become Muslims just by opening the translation of the Quran and reading it. I don't know how you say that you don't feel it is the Word of God when so many unbelievers understood by just reading the Quran's translation alone that it was not a human-made book

Because the claim is that this is the literal word of God, that places an immensely higher burden of proof on the text compared to other religious books - which usually claim to be divinely inspired, but not necessarily divinely authored. For a variety of reasons i don't feel that what I'm reading are indeed the words of God (even if they are in translation).

I'm just telling you my personal reaction, if I said something else it would be a lie.

 

[جوري]

i don't feel that what I'm reading are indeed the words of God

Your feelings are irrelevant- and the onus is indeed on you to prove that it isn't the word of God!

best,

 

[glo]

Your feelings are irrelevant

Looks to me like sister Dreamin was asking for Independent's personal thoughts and feelings:

Many unbelievers have become Muslims just by opening the translation of the Quran and reading it. I don't know how you say that you don't feel it is the Word of God when so many unbelievers understood by just reading the Quran's translation alone that it was not a human-made book.

 

[جوري]

Looks to me like sister Dreamin was asking for Independent's personal thoughts and feelings:

still doesn't change the fact that his feelings irrelevant. We don't deal with feelings when it comes to religion!

best,

 

[Muhaba]

Wow. How incredibly arrogant! I think you'll find there are many, many Christians / Hindus / Sikhs / etc. who, the more they learn about their faith, the more they believe them. To deny that is just crazy.

So you're stating that the more Christians learn about the trinity the more they are inclined to believe it is true? Or do their doubts increase but they shut them out?
Or are you stating that the more Hindus learn about reincarnation - a baseless belief with absolutely no scientific proof whatsoever - the more they believe it is true? Or is it their belief in their many god-idols that they make with their own hands and then worship them? Or belief in the many thousands - if not millions - of gods that they have? One example of their 'gods' is a certain snake that resided in a certain cave in India. The Indians believed that it was their god and that this snake never became hungry and never came out of its cave to search for food. When the British went there to investigate, they saw that the cave was full of bats and whenever the snake woke up, it would raise its head and eat a bat, then it would go back to sleep. That is the story of one hindu god!
Or do you think that the more the Sikhs look into their unhygienic and weird customs it makes them realize it is the truth but when they study the Islamic customs which are perfectly according to nature, then they turn away from Islam because they realize they are wrong?

You should give examples of the various beliefs and customs and how studying them deeper makes a person grow stronger in their belief instead of making a blind claim.

 

[Muhaba]

Because the claim is that this is the literal word of God, that places an immensely higher burden of proof on the text compared to other religious books - which usually claim to be divinely inspired, but not necessarily divinely authored. For a variety of reasons i don't feel that what I'm reading are indeed the words of God (even if they are in translation).

I'm just telling you my personal reaction, if I said something else it would be a lie.

As God said in the Quran, that if the Quran were manmade you'd find many contradictions in it but since it is from God, there are none. that is the greatest test. If there are contradictions in a book, then it cant be from God or even be divinely inspired. Because God wouldn't inspire contradictory statements would He? So when you look at the Bible you can see so many contradictions that it is proof enough that the current versions are not from God. (or they are changed by man and thus unsuitable for mankind's guidance.) Another test is the quality of the material presented. If a book has insulting words or stories then it can't be from God. The Quran doesn't have such statements but the Bible does.

Tell me what portion of the Quran you read, like what chapter and verses. Post the verses here and discuss your thoughts about them, why you don't feel they are the word of God, etc. (You can copy them from online Qurans like http://www.quran.com ). Just claiming that you read the Quran and you don't feel something isn't enough.

 

[Muhaba]

Looks to me like sister Dreamin was asking for Independent's personal thoughts and feelings:

Sister Glo, I'd like you to do the same as I asked Independent. Post the verses of the Quran that you read and discuss your feelings and thoughts. You can post them portion by portion section by section or if the chapter is short, then the whole chapter. You can copy them from http://www.quran.com . And then tell us your feelings and why you don't think it is the Word of God. I'd like to know what unbelievers are thinking when they read the Quran.

 

[observer]

So you're stating that the more Christians learn about the trinity the more they are inclined to believe it is true? Or do their doubts increase but they shut them out?
Or are you stating that the more Hindus learn about reincarnation - a baseless belief with absolutely no scientific proof whatsoever - the more they believe it is true? Or is it their belief in their many god-idols that they make with their own hands and then worship them? Or belief in the many thousands - if not millions - of gods that they have?

Well, yes - that's exactly what I'm saying. Of course the devout from those religions research and increase their faith, I genuinely can't understand how you would believe otherwise.

One example of their 'gods' is a certain snake that resided in a certain cave in India.

The Quran has plenty of fantastical stories which non-believers find impossible to believe (Mohammed's journey to heaven, for example) yet you - through your faith - have no problem accepting them. Why should that be different for other faiths?

 

[Independent]

Dreamin, please understand that I am simply telling you my personal reaction and responding to Muhammad's question, did i believe in the Prophet/Qu'ran as the direct word of Allah. How can I answer any other way except to give you my honest reply?

Tell me what portion of the Quran you read, like what chapter and verses. Post the verses here and discuss your thoughts about them, why you don't feel they are the word of God, etc. (You can copy them from online Qurans like http://www.quran.com ). Just claiming that you read the Quran and you don't feel something isn't enough.

I believe that an attempt to answer this question would require me to break the rules of this forum.

 

[glo]

Dreamin, please understand that I am simply telling you my personal reaction and responding to Muhammad's question, did i believe in the Prophet/Qu'ran as the direct word of Allah. How can I answer any other way except to give you my honest reply?


I believe that an attempt to answer this question would require me to break the rules of this forum.

I totally echo Independent's view.

Over the years in this forum I have many times been encouraged to express my views on Islam and the Qu'ran as a Christian (presumably with the intention of convincing me otherwise) and have then been shot down in flames, personally attacked and sanctioned with infractions for breaking forum rules when I did so.

I am not doing it anymore. I am very careful not to.
It is simply not why I am here.

I am sure there is a reason why the Comparative Religions section has been closed for so long - so perhaps we should be careful not to encourage inter-religious discussions elsewhere in the forum.
It is very difficult to talk about another religion without bringing in or comparing with parts of your own religion/beliefs/worldview.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

For a variety of reasons i don't feel that what I'm reading are indeed the words of God (even if they are in translation).

Well, by and large you're not reading the word of God! If the Arabic Quran has been translated, it's not God's word anymore.

In a translation a number of things are lost. This could be either the meaning of the verses, it's intended message, it's miracle or it's context.

So are you reading the words of God? As long as it's in a language other than Arabic, no you're not.

But having said this you can't completely discard the original Arabic Quran as being the same as a translation. Just like Shakespeare's plays won't make sense in - say - Pashtun (language of the Afghans), neither will the Qur'an when it's been taken away from it's original language. The last 1400 of Islam years weren't so long withstanding because of an English Qur'an.

 

[جوري]

Just as an aside note, there's a catholic woman I know who is falling apart, everyday she tells me she prays to this saint and that saint. I can do nothing but listen to her. I tried to search the bible for one passage that is relevant to her situation or that would bring her comfort and couldn't find a single one- I don't want this to be a time when I introduce Islam to her but I asked her if I could share with her one verse and it made all the sense in the world to her and she thanked me.
I have read quite extensively in the OT and NT and went to christian schools as a kid- there's no transcendence, no relevance and a time when one needs God's comfort the most they're ever confused about praying to this saint or that saint. I honestly pity her because aside from her deep troubles which I share in, she's completely misguided that I am actually afraid she'll commit suicide the way she sounds and acts. And yes of course she's listening to sad songs on top of the idolatry around the clock..

al7mdlilah alzhi 3afana mima ibtala beh ghyrona.

I think there's nothing worse losing what seems to be the few things of matter and importance in this life, save to actually completely **** the self in the hereafter over something that neither brings peace to the heart in the here and now nor salvation in the hereafter.

 

[Muhaba]

Dreamin, please understand that I am simply telling you my personal reaction and responding to Muhammad's question, did i believe in the Prophet/Qu'ran as the direct word of Allah. How can I answer any other way except to give you my honest reply?



I believe that an attempt to answer this question would require me to break the rules of this forum.

Such an easy escape. You claim to have read the Quran. You claim that you don't feel it is the Word of God. And When you are asked to post portions and discuss your feelings, then you escape by saying that that would break the rules of this forum. Why don't you come out openly and say the truth. That you've never read the Quran. Because if you did, you'd have at least something to respond with. But you do not.

The Quran, even it's translation is unique and everyone can tell that it is not a manmade book. Even those who disbelieved and continued to disbelieved acknowledged that it was not an ordinary book. At the time of the Prophet, many idolators gave their feelings about the Quran and clearly stated that it was not an ordinary book. They were so moved by the Quran but despite that, for worldly reasons some of them continued to oppose Islam. So, had you read it (even it's translation) you'd have felt it.

 

[Muhaba]

I totally echo Independent's view.

Over the years in this forum I have many times been encouraged to express my views on Islam and the Qu'ran as a Christian (presumably with the intention of convincing me otherwise) and have then been shot down in flames, personally attacked and sanctioned with infractions for breaking forum rules when I did so.

I am not doing it anymore. I am very careful not to.
It is simply not why I am here.

I am sure there is a reason why the Comparative Religions section has been closed for so long - so perhaps we should be careful not to encourage inter-religious discussions elsewhere in the forum.
It is very difficult to talk about another religion without bringing in or comparing with parts of your own religion/beliefs/worldview.

If you make a claim then be ready to back it up with proof. Otherwise don't make the claim at all. Don't say that you've read the Quran and you don't feel it is God's Word when you can't even post a few verses and tell us why you don't think they are God's Words.

 

[Muhaba]

Well, yes - that's exactly what I'm saying. Of course the devout from those religions research and increase their faith, I genuinely can't understand how you would believe otherwise.




The Quran has plenty of fantastical stories which non-believers find impossible to believe (Mohammed's journey to heaven, for example) yet you - through your faith - have no problem accepting them. Why should that be different for other faiths?

What is so impossible about Prophet Muhammad's journey to the Heavens??? Today we have planes and space shuttles so why is it so hard to accept that Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم went from Mecca to Juresalem in one night and then from there to the heavens? Have you so little faith in God's power that you can't accept that God can make it happen? Do we not see planes and space shuttles working today? Is it only in human power to create such amazing equipment but not in God's power to do so???

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings Independent,

At the one end, as I say, I can't understand why any God would prohibit such a wonderful thing as our capacity for music.

Not understanding the wisdom behind a ruling does not automatically mean one must doubt it. People trust the knowledge and experience of doctors and are willing to endure painful treatments, despite not fully understanding the reasoning behind them.

Humans have capacities for good and capacities for evil. We are given a choice as to how we use our capacities and the path to success is not an easy one.

But this is not an isolated or random prohibitiion, it connects up. When I look for an explanation or framework for it, I find it lies especially in a hadith tradition which I find historically suspect. (In fact many of the aspects of Islam I am most sceptical about come from hadiths.)

However, my scepticism runs deeper than that. I have issues with the historicity of the Qu'ran, which also has a big academic debate around it. (My views about this are not fixed, they change as i learn more.)

The preservation of the Qur'an and Hadith is very well documented and widely recognised for the unique and meticulous methods involved, both by Muslims as well as Orientalists. Whatever debate may exist, the evidence is available for all to see.

There are many threads on the topic of the preservation of the Qur'an and Hadith. To avoid starting a new discussion here, it would be best to browse those earlier threads or even better to study the topics from recommended books:
http://www.islamicboard.com/discover-islam/13373-studying-islam-list-resources.html

Putting the history on one side - I know Muslims also consider Islam to be proven by many signs etc. But when I look at these signs they don't convince me in the same way. (Especially the declared scientific signs which, to my eyes, have been so tremendously overstated that when they are offered as proofs they have the exact opposite effect on me.)

As mentioned in the other thread, it is true that some people have not followed the proper methodology when it comes to the scientific miracles in the Qur'an and have gone too far in some of their claims. That is not to say there are none at all. Moreover, the scientific miracle is only one aspect. There are many others, the strongest and most apparent of which is the literary miracle of the Qur'an.

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings glo,

None of us have complete proof and assurance of what the afterlife will hold or indeed that it exists.

I would have thought that a person of another faith would understand that evidence is not limited to what can be proven in a laboratory or by scientists. Just because we cannot see something does not mean it does not exist. When you speak of scripture, you must remember that Muslims and Christians view their scripture quite differently. Muslims view the Qur'an as being the absolute Word of God, therefore whatever is stated about the world of the unseen and stories of the Prophets are believed in with conviction. We do not see these stories as merely fables.

I think we do best if we lead a life which - to the best our our own knowledge and understanding - will please God. If we got the theology wrong, we will need to throw ourselves a this mercy!

The only opportunity for throwing ourselves at God's mercy is now. Now is the time to ask God for guidance and strive to understand the correct theology. There will come a time when it will be too late to ask for mercy and we will not be allowed to return back for a second chance. May God guide us all.

Regarding what you mentioned in your other post:

The point I was making was that this conviction of "I am right, so everybody who believes otherwise must be wrong ... and if they were only honest with themselves and explored the matter carefully enough, they would come to the same conclusion as me" exists in all religions and worldviews (even atheism).

Personally, I think it is very simplistic and things are really more complicated than that

Ultimately guidance is from God. We must do our part to research and at the same time ask God sincerely for His guidance. And when God guides a person to the truth, it is He who blesses him with firmness and steadfastness.

There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower. [Qur'an 2:256]


Regarding what you mentioned about being shot down after being invited to express your views, then I am sorry if that is what happened. You may remember from our previous discussions that it is often a difficult balance between interfaith discussion and promoting other religions, or even attacking them. Other factors also come into play. In any case, thanks for being considerate of the rules.

 

[Muhammad]

We have come some way from the original topic so I think we should put this thread to rest now. If any further discussion is needed on the new issues, it can be done in a new thread :ia:.