‘Gender segregation’ debate – ‘Muscular Liberals’ target Muslim Women yet again

[سيف الله]

Salaam

This doesn't get old does it? Another non-issue turned into 'debate'.

‘Gender segregation’ debate – ‘Muscular Liberals’ target Muslim Women yet again in their desire to impose their values on the Muslim Community

Despite the many problems facing the country, Prime Minister David Cameron’s decision to address what is essentially a seating plan of one particular community, appears extraordinary at one level, but Cameron’s opposition to allowing practicing Muslim women and men to sit separately at University Islamic society gatherings, and Chuka Umunna’s promise that Labour would ban such practices should it come to power, prove to be no more than a display of ‘muscular liberals’ competing to bash Muslims till they conform to liberal norms.

Shohana Khan, Women’s Media Representative of Hizb ut-Tahrir Britain commented, “Separated seating for men and women in Muslim gatherings is a normal part of life in the Muslim community and so has inevitably been likewise for University Islamic societies up and down the country – for decades – contrary to what the likes of Cameron may wish to portray.”

“The uproar that has been generated about this issue is a clear double standard, since separation of men and women in other circumstances in Britain is in no way unusual. Britain has many single-sex schools – including David Cameron’s own school Eton College. Under UK law, NHS hospitals can be fined if they fail to correctly segregate men and women in wards. Separation of men and women in most sporting events is considered normal and the idea of mixed changing rooms in public institutions would shock most people, even in a liberal society.“

“Yet, when Muslims adopt a separate seating arrangement based upon their faith, some liberal commentators scream that Muslims are unacceptably trying change the ‘nature of Britain’ by imposing an ‘extremist’ practice.”

“The argument put forward that separate gender seating is somehow oppressive towards women and devalues them, has no basis as it is Muslim women themselves alongside men who are calling for this separation. Their voices may have been largely silenced in the mainstream media, but they argue from across campuses that gender separated seating has no bearing upon the way they use their minds and voices. Rather, denying them the ability to sit in their own societies’ events in the manner they feel most comfortable, would be robbing them of their right to participate in University life.”

“Since separate gender seating at events is a normative Islamic practice in the Muslim community, to label it as fringe and ‘extremist’, is a lie and an attempt to threaten the entire Muslim community with their label of ‘extremism’. This ultimately is the legacy of the secular system, forcing an entire community to adopt secular norms or face being ostracised.”

“Furthermore, comments that Muslim women should leave universities and go to mosques if they want separate seating betray the intolerance of the secular system to people of faith, the lies about pluralism in Britain, and the capacity for liberals to act in a supremacist manner.”

“Cameron may be proud of his muscular liberalism but for many people, especially Muslim women, he and others seem little more than playground bullies inflating their own prowess at the expense of others.”

“We would argue that the best way for Muslim women to stand up to this kind of treatment is to hold fast to their Islamic values, and confidently explain them to others.“

http://www.hizb.org.uk/press-releases/gender-segregation-debate-muscular-liberals-target-muslim-women-yet-again-in-their-desire-to-impose-their-values-on-the-muslim-community

 

[Muhaba]

Women have the right to be segregated from men and men have the right to be segregated from women. In UAE in the trains there are women-only cabins where men aren't allowed. While women aren't forced to sit in these, most of the women (including nonmuslim women and even women wearing revealing clothes) choose to voluntarily ride in these cabins separate from men. That shows that women prefer to be separate from men. Pious men also want to be separate from women and should have the right to do that. A person's religion should be respected. As muslims, men and women are not allowed to have relations without marriage so naturally they feel more comfortable in segregated environments. If the rights of seculars to sit in mixed areas has to be respected then the rights of muslims to sit in segregated areas should also be respected. A truly liberated society would be one which had such segregated areas and then allowed everyone to sit where they wanted. And just as a nonsmoker can't be forced to sit in a smoking area, likewise people who prefer to be segregated shouldn't be forced to sit in mixed areas.

One verse of the Holy Quran that hints at segregation is:

O you who have believed, do not enter the houses of the Prophet except when you are permitted for a meal, without awaiting its readiness. But when you are invited, then enter; and when you have eaten, disperse without seeking to remain for conversation. Indeed, that [behavior] was troubling the Prophet, and he is shy of [dismissing] you. But Allah is not shy of the truth. And when you ask [his wives] for something, ask them from behind a partition. That is purer for your hearts and their hearts. And it is not [conceivable or lawful] for you to harm the Messenger of Allah or to marry his wives after him, ever. Indeed, that would be in the sight of Allah an enormity. (33: 53)

 

[observer]

I think the point is that if it's an event open to all, then segregation cannot be applied, which I completely agree with.

However, I don't see why Islamic societies at universities which organise events solely for muslims shouldn't be allowed segregation though, that seems odd.

 

[Muhaba]

^I think that if it's an event open to all, then everyone's wishes should be respected and there should be segregated areas and non-segregated areas and one can freely choose to sit where they like. Those who want to sit in mixed areas won't be forced to sit in segregated areas and those who want to be segregated won't be forced to sit in mixed areas. Why can't you give freedom properly when you claim to give freedom? Forcing your own wishes on others isn't proper. Everyone's wishes should be respected. There are many muslims who don't want to sit in mixed areas so why not respect their wishes?
Or are secularists afraid that many non-muslims will also choose the segregated areas and that is a threat to their system? Just like so many nonmuslim women prefer to ride in the women-only compartment of the train in UAE? Now, why do they ride in the women-only compartment when no one forces them - it is completely voluntary to sit where you like? Is it in a woman's nature to prefer to be away from men?!!

 

[observer]

^I think that if it's an event open to all, then everyone's wishes should be respected and there should be segregated areas and non-segregated areas and one can freely choose to sit where they like. Those who want to sit in mixed areas won't be forced to sit in segregated areas and those who want to be segregated won't be forced to sit in mixed areas.

Seems like a reasonable compromise - if there's a choice then that would seem to take away the basis for complaint.

Or are secularists afraid that many non-muslims will also choose the segregated areas and that is a threat to their system?

Well, no. The idea of "women only" areas in certain places is completely normal in many secular societies.

The problem with the university segregation harks back a long way to a shameful time when women were not allowed to attend university. Introducing compulsory segregation anywhere in a university smacks of that same idea (rightly or wrongly) and therefore will never be approved of.

 

[truthseeker63]

WS I support and believe in Gender Segregation.

 

[faithandpeace]

Assalamu alaikum.

Notice how biased this video "debate" is. They won't even allow the hijabi (Dr. Nazreen Nawaz) to speak and constantly interrupt and talk over her yet the others can talk as long as they want without this kind of treatment. May Allah (swt) reward Dr. Nazreen Nawaz for her courage and steadfastness to the deen and for speaking haqq in face of resistance. Ameen.

 

[crimsontide06]

It is a tough issue; here, people(not me but the majority of people) see it as "a backwoods practice that aims to oppress women and show that women are beneath(a lower class than men) men and have to be "segregated" from the men because the men are too good to be seen with the "filth" of the human race"


Unless people are being physically or mentally hurt people need to just let others practice their religious duties in peace...

 

[Karl]

Why do Muslims go to kuffar universities? Isn't that haram? They are full of intolerant Zionist Marxists and bigots. They don't care at all about sitting arrangements they are just harassing Muslims for the sake of it, as they hate Islam. You must realize that the British and their US buddies invest a lot of money into the destruction of Muslims and Islam.

 

[sister herb]

Where ever muslims whose live in the "Kuffar lands" could go to study than "Kuffar Universities" if they want some higher education and can´t move to study to Jakarta, Jeddah or Cairo?

 

[Karl]

Where ever muslims whose live in the "Kuffar lands" could go to study than "Kuffar Universities" if they want some higher education and can´t move to study to Jakarta, Jeddah or Cairo?

There are enough Muslims in Britain, France, Germany and other Zio nations to build there own Universities. Muslims have Madrassas, why not have there own universities? Is it because Muslim qualifications would not be recognized by the kuffar.?

 

[sister herb]

I think that laws in those "Zio Nations" don´t allow to create "muslims only" universities where lectures and students should all be muslims - if you meant that. It is called racism in the constitution of those "Zio Nations".

 

[AsheSkyler]

Forcing people to sit together is just as bad as forcing them to sit apart. If they truly support ending oppression, they'll let people sit wherever they want. Which includes letting those of us who want to sit in the floor go sit in the floor! I don't like chairs. They hurt my legs.

 

[ardianto]

Should the committee make sitting arrangement in Islamic event?.

In my place this is not always necessary because even without sitting arrangement like this, Muslims will still sit in place where they must sit. Men with men, women with women, it's happen automatically. How if someone sit on wrong place?. The other will remind him/her to move.

It's because we have been taught about it since we were kids.

 

[Karl]

I think that laws in those "Zio Nations" don´t allow to create "muslims only" universities where lectures and students should all be muslims - if you meant that. It is called racism in the constitution of those "Zio Nations".

Yeah, but what about all the white Muslims? It's drawing a long bow to call a Muslim university "racist" anyway. I suppose the Zio Marxists have a problem with religious, race and gender segregation. Even if the people WANT to be segregated. They don't want religious segregation because they want to influence and corrupt the religion with the presence of godless bigots criticizing the religion.

Yeah it's all too hard for females. Maybe it would be best for them to forget about university and settle down and have a family. As having a family is far more rewarding than being a scholar. Better to be a mother than highly "educated". What's it all for? To toil in your studies and then to toil in a job, a life of suffering? Wouldn't having a baby on your lap and the Sunnah in your right hand be bliss?
The original Universities in ancient pagan Greece were males only and then after the Dark Ages the first University was in Krakow Poland and that was Christian and male only, so a Muslim one would have to be male only too, as is tradition and the conservative way.

 

[observer]

The original Universities in ancient pagan Greece were males only and then after the Dark Ages the first University was in Krakow Poland and that was Christian and male only, so a Muslim one would have to be male only too, as is tradition and the conservative way.

Wasn't one of the first universities started by a muslim woman in Morocco or Egypt (I forget which)? So islamic tradition would then surely dictate that education is for all, no?

*Al Karouine - Fez (thankyou Wikipedia!)

 

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another update. Agree, Disagree?

The initial guidance issued by Universities UK permitting voluntary segregation of men and women at Islamic events in British Universities has created the, now predictable, furore against the Islamisation of British society. The Prime Minister has once again even waded in on an Islamic issue forcing UUK to withdraw the guidance while they seek legal clarification.

The report that initially raised the issue of segregated Islamic events in UK Universities was issue in May 2013 by the little known Student Rights group. To call it a report is probably to give it a little too much credibility as the research appears to be based on google and facebook searches of selected Islamic events around UK campuses. Nonetheless it achieved the desired result in the eyes of the authors of putting a stop to the Islamic events taking place – censorship of Islam by the back door.
It’s a tried and tested formula: a “report” or expose on the perceived failings of Islamic practices followed by a media furore leading to ever more draconian policies instituted against Muslims. The fact of the matter is much of the anti-Islam propaganda is ideologically driven, originates from only a few Islamaphobes and is then popularised by the right-wing press.

The Student Rights group is linked to the Hendry Jackson Society, dedicated to spreading freedom and democracy, with Dr. Alan Mendoza, Founder and Executive Director of the HJS, sitting on the Advisory Board of Student Rights. According to the HJS website Mendoza “directs analysis, research focus, strategy and development for the organisation. He is also Chief Advisor to the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Transatlantic & International Security and the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Homeland Security, a Board Member of the British-American Project. “ A colleague of Mendoza and a better known front man for the HJS is Douglas Murray its Associate Director. In a speech to the Dutch Parliament that Paul Goodman quotes, Murray argued that “Conditions for Muslims in Europe must be made harder across the board.” He went on to suggest that mosques be demolished in some cases, and that Muslim immigrants should be banned.

Murray previously founded the ironically named Centre for Social Cohesion – described as a think tank studying extremism and terrorism in the UK – that spurted all manner of hate material against Muslims, creating divisions between Muslims and the wider community. The CSC was founded in 2007 as part of a London think tank, Civitas, another private sector policy offering unit with a disproportionate amount of anti-Islam discourse in the form of pamphlets, research and books, and was eventually subsumed into the now familiar HJS, which keeps cropping up behind various aliases. CSC shared its Clutha House premises in London with Civitas, and another right wing think tank, Policy Exchange, which has also been behind discredited anti-Islam propaganda. Student Rights has itself been exposed by students for having no student members or links to student unions.

We can conclude from this that in contrast to the public perceptions much of the negative anti-Islam propaganda originates from a few Islamaphobic sources. The Individuals behind these organisations conceal their true anti-Islam agenda behind respectable sounding so-called think tanks, peddling little more than dogmatic, anti-Islam opinions and unrepresentative dodgy ‘research’. Some of the leading individuals behind these policy units have a national security, foreign policy background making them essentially an integral part of the British and Western foreign policy apparatus. Finally they often employ Muslims as fronts for these organisations to deflect the criticism of being Islamaphobic.

As a community we need to realise that Muslim rights are being progressively eroded from these now all too familiar episodes. Rights that are seen as perfectly legitimate for other religious communities are somehow intolerable for Muslims to hold – though Muslims are doing nothing illegal. This erosion of legitimate Muslim rights really started following the events of 9/11 under the guise of anti-terrorism laws and has now crept into curtailing everyday Muslim practices – to the extent of banning what Muslims can wear and even curbing where they can sit – very real indictments of liberal values of the west.

http://www.hizb.org.uk/current-affairs/exposing-the-right-wing-anti-islam-alliance

 

[Karl]

Wasn't one of the first universities started by a muslim woman in Morocco or Egypt (I forget which)? So islamic tradition would then surely dictate that education is for all, no?

*Al Karouine - Fez (thankyou Wikipedia!)

University is based on the Greek model. Traditionally only the wealthy females would be educated so they could converse intelligently with their highly educated husbands. Also education was paid for by the father and most fathers would prefer their daughters to get married and have children as soon as possible. Not to be reading books all day and becoming a learned old maid.

 

[sugaray21]

KARL: no it wouldn't be best for muslim women to choose motherhood rather than go to university. Motherhood is far more rewarding, yes.and far more important. However, we muslim women are obligated to be educated as are muslim men (as you know there are many hadiths and a surah in the quran referencing this). So we muslim women aim to both educate ourselves AND be mothers, but for muslim sisters growing up in the uk where we have no one to look after our children whilst we study (no extended family unit, rare nowadays), it makes better sense for us to go to university and reach a good standard of education this way and have children after.because it is extremely difficult to study at home, with children around.and since we will be raising the next generation of young men and women, , it's surely preferable that they are raised by women with a high standard of education . I'm a little disappointed to hear you (a muslim male) say that muslim women ought to choose motherhood over education as if we shouldnt do both.

As for the whole issue of gender segregation, what is actually the issue?? Because as I understand it, , it's muslims requesting that muslims are alllowed to be segregated at events.no one is wanting to impose this upon non muslims so whats the problem?? If there is an event where there are both non muslims and muslims, then just do segregated and mixed areas . It's so simple.
But I actually think the problem is different.i think that, and I hope I'm wrong but, I think the whole issue is more about people's ignorant assumptions that muslim women are somehow very subtly brainwashed and/or coerced into believing that segregation is right.that frankly, we are somehow oppressed beings who are simply going along with the whole islam thing in general because of various reasons.and this all goes back to incorrect knowledge about islam and Islam's history. And how women in islam has become such a major issue all of a sudden because the west just struggle to believe that we really do choose to become muslims because it is a viable alternative to the western lifestyle.but it's hard for people lime david cameron et al to get on board with this.if the status quo would believe and accept that those of us women who choose islam are doing it because it is better for us, then there would be a problem because more women would choose it, once they knew the real as opposed to fabricated islam, and therein lies a problem for david cameron et al.once the sheeps are all gone, the shepherds have no one to herd and lead.
Are there any other sisters who think this? As a revert myself, since covering my hair I've noticed a change in that people are very surprised when they see I'm intelligent and certainly not oppressed.

 

[AsheSkyler]

Yeah it's all too hard for females. Maybe it would be best for them to forget about university and settle down and have a family. As having a family is far more rewarding than being a scholar. Better to be a mother than highly "educated". What's it all for? To toil in your studies and then to toil in a job, a life of suffering? Wouldn't having a baby on your lap and the Sunnah in your right hand be bliss?

No, it would not be best. For some, yes, if that's what he and she want and it is good for them, then they should do it. But making that mandatory or forcing it for every couple? It's better to be alive and nontraditional than be dead and traditional. I work because my husband is in bad health. I educate myself so I can make more money, to be prepared for something major like a hospitalization. I'm much happier knowing that my husband and son are provided for than if I was sitting at home on my hands watching my family grow thinner and thinner. (And, no, our families can't afford to help us anymore than we can afford for me to not work.)