Muslim-Christian Dialogue

[dcalling]

Most of those have simple explanations, some hard to explain ones (how many people are in the grave) doesn't contradict the meaning of the Bible (i.e. Love God and Love your neighbors). It will be a huge blow if you can find anything that contradicts that. There are many contradictions in the Quran like that too, but most of them are easy to explain.

I had many PM with Woodrow, who think Torah is almost correct but NT is totally corrupt, I am researching the stuff from Woodrow, but I doubt anything will really contradict the ultimate law of God. It is very easy to understand the 10 commandments on the Love God Love Others rule, and you can see how consistent God is. Any book/saying contradicts that is not from God.

Your book (the Bible) is full of contradictions, inconsistencies, and vulgar statements that prove that it is not the uncorrupt Word of God and is therefore not reliable. The following is from Wikipedia:

See also 1000 contradictions in the bible No LINK ALLOWED
So, the bible is full of contradictions and isn't reliable. There are clear errors in the bible. Can the book of God contain errors? If it does, then how do you know which part is correct and can be trusted and which is an error? How do you know that the doctrine of trinity is correct? How do you know anything in the bible is correct???

Basing one's faith on such a book is clearly a terrible mistake.

 

[Mango]

The Quran did not say that Allah can have a son. Please read the Quran before you make assumptions. Thank you

 

[dcalling]

The Quran did not say that Allah can have a son. Please read the Quran before you make assumptions. Thank you

From Quran.com, 39.4: If Allah had intended to take a son, He could have chosen from what He creates whatever He willed. Exalted is He; He is Allah , the One, the Prevailing.

Allah can do what ever he wants, including who goes to heaven and hell (the second part is according to the board members, have not verified from Quran yet).

 

[christianuk]

dear dreamin
wake up!
IF YOUR BROTHER DIED AND A PILE OF WILLS were found at his bedside
could it be that his last will and testament could be in the pile?

the answer can only be yes or no.
yes?

neil

 

[christianuk]

leaving aside the extreme doctrinal differences between islam and christianity which of these are obnoxious to muslims?

7
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not
given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
Tts 1:8
But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;

seems good to me.

regards

neil

 

[Insaanah]

Greetings christianuk

Well that's a lot of work!

What is?

And that's it?

Meaning?

So you have confined the 4 Bible Gospels to the bin?

The original scripture, given to Jesus (peace be upon him) by God, was called the Injeel. This was the word of God, not the words of any human. The ones we have today, are the words of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, not God. The injeel is no longer in existence, having being mixed with the words of man, parts changed/edited/deleted/forgotten/corrupted. There may be fragments of the truth remaining interspersed with what else is there. Some people, of their own volition, will perceive as a rough guide, whatever agrees with the Qur'an, as having an element of truth. But Allah knows best.

Fact is, we now have an unchanged scripture with us, from God, 100% the word of God, no word from any man or any scribe in it. It is the last and final scripture of God, the last and final testament, the exact words revealed by God to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) via the angel Gabriel. It's message is for the entire world, until the world ends. It is because Allah has promised to preserve the Qur'an that there won't be any need for a new Prophet, because the message is, and will remain, intact. Thus it is fully preserved with no word in it coming from any human. It is 100% the word of God, unlike the other scriptures that we have with us today, that have been changed by humans - thus it supersedes the previous scriptures, while being a continuation, confirmation and culmination of the original message contained within them, in its last and final form. It has no versions or editions. Millions of people from all over the world have memorised and they all recite word for word the same thing. It contains practical guidance on how to live our life, how to worship God, stories of previous prophets from which to learn lessons, warnings, rules, comfort, solace, good tidings, and in it God corrects any misconceptions people may have about Him or His prophets. It tells us what has always been expected from humans since the beginning of time; what He told His prophets to teach people since the very beginning. That message never changed. The essence of Islam is what always was, and has always been, the true and natural religion; the way of all the Prophets, the original and only message.

This is the criterion, and this is the book which must now be followed. As Muslims, we believe in the original Scriptures given to Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them), i.e. the Torah, and the Injeel, as well as the book given to David (peace be upon him), and any revelations given to any Prophet from their Lord, even though we may never have seen these scriptures. Indeed this is an article of faith for a Muslim. To not believe in these, renders one outside the fold of Islam, it is that important. Now that the last and final testament is with us, (and has been for the past 1400 years), we have no need to look at scriptures that have been corrupted.

As to the issue of the comforter, it's mentioned on page 94 of the link I gave you. I believe there's one reference in the bible to the comforter being "in you", but many other references which outweigh this, which Prophet Muhammad (peace, salutations and blessings of Allah be upon him) fulfils. Remember, when you say "comforter", you're not looking at the original Biblical language, but an English translation. "Comforter" is one meaning, but it has other meanings as other translations of the same verses show, including advocate, helper, and others.

There may have been threads on this in the past. If I find any, I'll post the links, and others may have links on paraclete/comforter too.

Peace.

 

[dcalling]

The injeel is no longer in existence ....

Not even the Quran has such claims. If you go to muslim-reponse.com (a Muslim site), muslim-responses.com/Ask_the_People_of_the_Book/Ask_the_People_of_the_Book_
you will find Ibn kather's comment about how Muhammad passed a mourning Jew and asked him if the Tawrah talk about him, and the son of the Jewish man said yes, in witness of multiple people (including Abu Bkar etc). So at least in Muhammad's time the Tawrah is not corrupted (verified by Muhammad himself).

And the comment below that one, "Ibn Jarir at-Tabari (d.311 A.H.-923 A.D.) comments on the verse: "God says to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) that if you are in doubt about the truthfulness of what We told you in Revelations - that the children of Israel had not differed concerning your prophet hood before you were sent by God as an Apostle to His people, for they found you prophesied in their scripture, and they knew you from the description of you given in the Torah and Injil - you must confer with those who read the sacred book before you, that is, the people of the Torah and the people of the Gospel, such as Abdullah Ibn Salam and those who, like him, were honest and had faith in you: do not ask those who are dishonest or are unbelievers." (At-Tabari, Jami', vol. II, p. 115)

If the Injeel is indeed corrupt beyond reorganization, the whole comment is wrong (how can Muhammad confirm with a corrupted Injil?)

I would say a lot of the Torah/Gospel is totally corrupted is added by later Muslims, not by Muhammad and the people of his generation (not even at 923 AD when at-Tabari made the comment).

 

[YusufNoor]

Not even the Quran has such claims. If you go to muslim-reponse.com (a Muslim site), muslim-responses.com/Ask_the_People_of_the_Book/Ask_the_People_of_the_Book_
you will find Ibn kather's comment about how Muhammad passed a mourning Jew and asked him if the Tawrah talk about him, and the son of the Jewish man said yes, in witness of multiple people (including Abu Bkar etc). So at least in Muhammad's time the Tawrah is not corrupted (verified by Muhammad himself).

And the comment below that one, "Ibn Jarir at-Tabari (d.311 A.H.-923 A.D.) comments on the verse: "God says to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) that if you are in doubt about the truthfulness of what We told you in Revelations - that the children of Israel had not differed concerning your prophet hood before you were sent by God as an Apostle to His people, for they found you prophesied in their scripture, and they knew you from the description of you given in the Torah and Injil - you must confer with those who read the sacred book before you, that is, the people of the Torah and the people of the Gospel, such as Abdullah Ibn Salam and those who, like him, were honest and had faith in you: do not ask those who are dishonest or are unbelievers." (At-Tabari, Jami', vol. II, p. 115)

If the Injeel is indeed corrupt beyond reorganization, the whole comment is wrong (how can Muhammad confirm with a corrupted Injil?)

I would say a lot of the Torah/Gospel is totally corrupted is added by later Muslims, not by Muhammad and the people of his generation (not even at 923 AD when at-Tabari made the comment).

that's not correct.

 

[YusufNoor]

dear dreamin
wake up!
IF YOUR BROTHER DIED AND A PILE OF WILLS were found at his bedside
could it be that his last will and testament could be in the pile?

the answer can only be yes or no.
yes?

neil

unless it was witnessed to, it could be anything.

the Gospel of (allegedly written by) Mark was not written 'till between 65 and 75 CE. no one knows who wrote it and it contains contradictions of the the 3 (alleged) gospels.

the Gospel of (allegedly written by) Matthew was not written 'till around 85 CE. no one knows who wrote it and it contains contradictions of the the 3 (alleged) gospels.

the Gospel of (allegedly written by) Luke was not written 'till around 85 CE. no one knows who wrote it and it contains contradictions of the the 3 (alleged) gospels.

the Gospel of (allegedly written by) John was not written 'till around 95 CE. no one knows who wrote it and it contains contradictions of the the 3 (alleged) gospels.

there are only 7 letters in the NT believed to be "authentic", the were written by Saul. Saul claims to have preached a different gospel than that taught by Jesus and the apostles.

it's elementary, my dear Watson, the NT is a fabrication.

 

[dcalling]

Not even the Quran has such claims. If you go to muslim-reponse.com (a Muslim site), muslim-responses.com/Ask_the_People_of_the_Book/Ask_the_People_of_the_Book_
you will find Ibn kather's comment about how Muhammad passed a mourning Jew and asked him if the Tawrah talk about him, and the son of the Jewish man said yes, in witness of multiple people (including Abu Bkar etc). So at least in Muhammad's time the Tawrah is not corrupted (verified by Muhammad himself).

And the comment below that one, "Ibn Jarir at-Tabari (d.311 A.H.-923 A.D.) comments on the verse: "God says to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) that if you are in doubt about the truthfulness of what We told you in Revelations - that the children of Israel had not differed concerning your prophet hood before you were sent by God as an Apostle to His people, for they found you prophesied in their scripture, and they knew you from the description of you given in the Torah and Injil - you must confer with those who read the sacred book before you, that is, the people of the Torah and the people of the Gospel, such as Abdullah Ibn Salam and those who, like him, were honest and had faith in you: do not ask those who are dishonest or are unbelievers." (At-Tabari, Jami', vol. II, p. 115)

If the Injeel is indeed corrupt beyond reorganization, the whole comment is wrong (how can Muhammad confirm with a corrupted Injil?)

I would say a lot of the Torah/Gospel is totally corrupted is added by later Muslims, not by Muhammad and the people of his generation (not even at 923 AD when at-Tabari made the comment).

that's not correct.

Are you saying the quoted texts are incorrect?

 

[dcalling]

Again all that is your word (or you got that from somewhere other than Quran or Hadith).

I found another site, quranfromallah.com/Topics/Quran-Gospel.html, that is also an Islam site.

I only copied a couple of what the Quran says about the people of the book, all of them are asking people of the book to follow their scripture and judge by their scripture:


Let the people of the Injeel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed such are the Fasiqoon to Allah. (Quran 5:47)
And if only they had acted according to the Taurat, the Injeel, and what has been sent down to them from their Lord, they would surely have gotten provision from above them and from underneath their feet. There are from among them people who are on the right course, but many of them do evil deeds. (Quran 5:66)
Say "O people of the Scripture! You have nothing till you act according to the Taurat, the Injeel, and what has been sent down to you from your Lord." Verily, that which has been sent down to you from your Lord increases in many of them their obstinate rebellion and disbelief. So be not sorrowful over the people who disbelieve. (Quran 5:68)
Say: "O people of the Scripture! Exceed not the limits in your religion other than the truth, and do not follow the vain desires of people who went astray in times gone by, and who misled many, and strayed from the Right Path." (Quran 5:77)

There are some others, but none of Muhammad's sayings resemble what you said. I would say the stuff you said are not based upon the Quran and Hadith, but something else you researched yourself. So while Muhammad clearly states that people of the book should not exceed the limits of their book, should act according to the scripture, you are saying all that is corrupt (so basically contradicting him).

unless it was witnessed to, it could be anything.

the Gospel of (allegedly written by) Mark was not written 'till between 65 and 75 CE. no one knows who wrote it and it contains contradictions of the the 3 (alleged) gospels.

the Gospel of (allegedly written by) Matthew was not written 'till around 85 CE. no one knows who wrote it and it contains contradictions of the the 3 (alleged) gospels.

the Gospel of (allegedly written by) Luke was not written 'till around 85 CE. no one knows who wrote it and it contains contradictions of the the 3 (alleged) gospels.

the Gospel of (allegedly written by) John was not written 'till around 95 CE. no one knows who wrote it and it contains contradictions of the the 3 (alleged) gospels.

there are only 7 letters in the NT believed to be "authentic", the were written by Saul. Saul claims to have preached a different gospel than that taught by Jesus and the apostles.

it's elementary, my dear Watson, the NT is a fabrication.

 

[Signor]

From Quran.com, 39.4: If Allah had intended to take a son, He could have chosen from what He creates whatever He willed. Exalted is He; He is Allah , the One, the Prevailing.

Allah has also made it clear:

112:3 "He begets not, nor was He begotten;

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all;

Do we bring glory to God by arguing?

How do we strive to live together in peace with our differences?

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship and understanding,

Eric

 

[YusufNoor]

Again all that is your word (or you got that from somewhere other than Quran or Hadith).

if you are talking about my post, it is the concurrence of the majority of Christian Bible scholars.

 

[Karl]

I am a born-again Christian of many years.

It is obvious that Islam and Christianity contradict one another so both can't be true.

I would like to explore this issue.

:shade:

Monotheism is like a tree with one trunk, it has many roots and branches. Allah is Arabic for "The God" meaning the Almighty the Greatest. So I don't see a point in fighting over who is God. The Almighty is God. Jesus (PBUH) was a man and he was mortal. We don't really know what happened to him, some believe he went to Rome and settled down and had a family. If he had the power to turn water into wine, raise the dead, cure the sick and do other miraculous things he is not going to let a bunch of nutters execute him is he?

 

[dcalling]

if you are talking about my post, it is the concurrence of the majority of Christian Bible scholars.

I am quoting Quran while you are quoting from majority of Christian Bible scholars I think we have archived what Eric was asking for.

 

[greenhill]

I only copied a couple of what the Quran says about the people of the book, all of them are asking people of the book to follow their scripture and judge by their scripture:


"Let the people of the Injeel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed such are the Fasiqoon to Allah. (Quran 5:47)
And if only they had acted according to the Taurat, the Injeel, and what has been sent down to them from their Lord, they would surely have gotten provision from above them and from underneath their feet. There are from among them people who are on the right course, but many of them do evil deeds. "(Quran 5:66)

Yes, for the times before the next scripture was sent down. For those who followed the Torah (in its unadulterated form) before the arrival of the Bible after which it is no longer valid and again for those who followed the Bible until the arrival of the Qur'an after which it is no longer valid.

Sahih International
"That is a nation which has passed on. It will have [the consequence of] what it earned, and you will have what you have earned. And you will not be asked about what they used to do. "(2:141)

The above talks about the previous scriptures and how they will be judged.

Sahih International
"And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit. But is it [not] that every time a messenger came to you, [O Children of Israel], with what your souls did not desire, you were arrogant? And a party [of messengers] you denied and another party you killed."(2:87)

So each messenger had a message to deliver and it according to the verse, it largely fell on deaf ears and they decided to maintain the old scriptures as opposed to embrace the new ones.


eace:

 

[dcalling]

Thank you Green hill

Yes, for the times before the next scripture was sent down. For those who followed the Torah (in its unadulterated form) before the arrival of the Bible after which it is no longer valid and again for those who followed the Bible until the arrival of the Qur'an after which it is no longer valid.

Again that is your own explanation, almost like inserting that in force into Quran (all my quotes of Quran clearly shown that Muhammad himself think the Bible is not corrupt). The other poster is worse, put the Christian scholars above Quran (I have no problem with it of course , it is all research, but are Muslims supposed to do that? other books above Quran?)

Sahih International
"That is a nation which has passed on. It will have [the consequence of] what it earned, and you will have what you have earned. And you will not be asked about what they used to do. "(2:141)

I will check the context on this. from the text alone it looks like it confirm the parts I quoted, i.e. people of the book will be judged by their book.

The above talks about the previous scriptures and how they will be judged.

Sahih International
"And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit. But is it [not] that every time a messenger came to you, [O Children of Israel], with what your souls did not desire, you were arrogant? And a party [of messengers] you denied and another party you killed."(2:87)

So each messenger had a message to deliver and it according to the verse, it largely fell on deaf ears and they decided to maintain the old scriptures as opposed to embrace the new ones.


eace:

Again it almost sounds like you are trying to twist scripture. The message of God is uniform, contains nothing new (I believe it is said in Quran). The verse simply said people rejected some prophets and killed others while God let them to warn the worlds.

Thank you and Peace be upon you.

 

[greenhill]

...put the Christian scholars above Quran

I don't think so. He is merely quoting what Christian scholars have said about the Bible and when it was put together (or something like that). ^o)


eace:

 

[greenhill]

Again it almost sounds like you are trying to twist scripture. The message of God is uniform, contains nothing new

Yes uniform, yet progressive. Each according to the times and the development of the human race especially with regard to reasoning.


eace: