Creation

[POBook]

Greetings to all,

I am trying to found out more about the logic of creation. In Fâtir or Al*Malâ'ikah 1 (Sura 35:1) of the Qur'an, we read:

"All the praises and thanks be to Allâh, the (only) Originator [or the (only) Creator] of the heavens and the earth, Who made the angels messengers with wings, - two or three or four. He increases in creation what He wills. Verily, Allâh is Able to do all things."

Did Allah use something to create the heavens and the earth or did Allah use nothing, other than His will and His power, to create the heavens and the earth?

Thanks for your feedback ,

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi POBook,
I don't remember if I mentioned this or not in the other thread, but there is nothing illogical about creation. You want me to explain the 'logic' of how God creates?

Nothing -> Something

That pretty much sums up the logic. God is the infinite source of all energy and matter in our universe; He is the first cause and it is through His power and will that the universe came into existence.

 

[POBook]

Greetings Ansar Al-'Adl,

You want me to explain the 'logic' of how God creates?

Nothing -> Something

You are wanting me to explain the logic of the Trinity:

One -> Three

That pretty much sums up the logic . God is the infinite source of all energy and matter in our universe; He is the first cause and it is through His power and will that the universe came into existence.

I think that also pretty much sums up the logic of the Trinity . It is also through His will and power that He came into existence in this world at the same time as His existence in heaven at the same time as His existence in the hearts of people.

Sincerely,

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

You are wanting me to explain the logic of the Trinity:

One -> Three

This is a very weak attempt to create an analogy as I pointed out before because the doctrine of trinity is SELF-CONTRADICTORY. Creation is not self-contradictory; it is simply the act of bring something into existence.

Now the expression "one->three" works if you want me to believe that first there was one entity and then two additional entities were created by someone - is this what you want me to believe?

I can understand if you want to admit that the trinity is illogical, but clearly any attempt to draw a parallel connection between trinity and creation is flawed, since there is nothing illogical about creation.

Regards

 

[POBook]

Hey Ansar Al-'Adl,

Thanks for your reply. Again allow me to ask: What is the logic behind nothing becoming something? All you have had to say so far is, "There is nothing illogical about creation." It is easy to say that creation is not illogical. You keep pointing out that the Tinity is illogical, giving logical forms of argument to make your point. All I am asking you to do is provide a logical explanantion of how you make nothing become something. You have yet to provide that explanation.

Sincerely,

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Thanks for your reply. Again allow me to ask: What is the logic behind nothing becoming something? All you have had to say so far is, "There is nothing illogical about creation." It is easy to say that creation is not illogical.

Then I challenge you to refute my arguments for the trinity being illogical.

All I am asking you to do is provide a logical explanantion of how you make nothing become something. You have yet to provide that explanation.

I am still having difficulty understanding what kind of explanation you are looking for.

This borders on asking me to describe the way in which God excercises His power, which is immediately beyond the scope of something we can discuss. The difference between your creation argument and my trinity argument is that I asked you about the self-contradictory nature of trinity, while you asked me about the manner in which God functions and the specific way in which He excercise His power.

Consider another example. If you told me that no one can understand how much God loves us, I would accept that assertion. But if you told me that no one can understand how God exists as three yet at the same time one, I would not accept that assertion. The reason is because in the first example I agree that the measure or manner of God's attributes is beyond us, but in the second example you are giving me a self-contradictory statement about God.

Regards

 

[sumay28]

Does the word "trinity" prick some of you in the heart when you hear it? I don't get it man. One God... sounds pretty simple. 3-in-one... ??? I just don't get it.

Dude.... POBook... may Allah grant you Hidaya. If you were a Muslim you'd be lethal in a debate. You've got a tight grip. Only, you're not holding on to the truth.

 

[POBook]

Hi there once again Ansar Al-'Adl,

Thanks for your response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by POBook
Thanks for your reply. Again allow me to ask: What is the logic behind nothing becoming something? All you have had to say so far is, "There is nothing illogical about creation." It is easy to say that creation is not illogical.

Then I challenge you to refute my arguments for the trinity being illogical.

This is my refute: Please provide a logical argument for nothing becoming something.

I am still having difficulty understanding what kind of explanation you are looking for.

All I am asking you to explain is how nothing can become something. God created the heavens and they earth out of nothing. He said "Be" and they are. All I want to know is the logic behind this nothing becoming something.

This borders on asking me to describe the way in which God excercises His power, which is immediately beyond the scope of something we can discuss.

You see, I could not agree with you more on this, Ansar Al-'Adl. I know I keep asking you to provide a logical explanation of making nothing become something. The fact is, I cannot explain the logic behind that; you cannot explain the logic behind that; no one can explain the logic behind that. There is no logic behind it. If there was logic behind this, and we could explain it, then we would be equal in power to God--or rather, God would be a God who can be confined to the limits of our understanding and our weak intelligence.

When it comes to the Trinity, we cannot seek a logical explanation of how God can be three distinct "Beings" all at the same time. If I may repeat to you what you said to me: "This (a logical explanantion of the Trinity) borders on asking me to describe the way in which God excercises His power, which is immediately beyond the scope of something we can discuss." God is fully capable of excercising His power in ways that we cannot fully understand, comprehend, or explain in logical fashion. We are not God. Only God is God.

The difference between your creation argument and my trinity argument is that I asked you about the self-contradictory nature of trinity, while you asked me about the manner in which God functions and the specific way in which He excercise His power.

There is no difference between a creation argument and a Trinity argument. In both cases, God is able to accomplish something that is beyond our limited and earthly human abilities of understanding. Think about this: If nothing can become something through the power of God, why can God, through His same power, not exist as three entities all at the same time? Both cases are beyond human logic and understanding but both cases are well within God's power.

Consider another example. If you told me that no one can understand how much God loves us, I would accept that assertion. But if you told me that no one can understand how God exists as three yet at the same time one, I would not accept that assertion. The reason is because in the first example I agree that the measure or manner of God's attributes is beyond us, but in the second example you are giving me a self-contradictory statement about God.

Allow me to respond to this on a more personal level if I may. I will never tell you that no one can understand how much God loves us. We can all understand how much God loves us, if we are willing to give Him space in our lives to express His love for us. "This is love: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins" (1 John 4:10). I know and understand that God truly loves me--that He loves me more than any other person can love me; He loves me more than I can love myself; He loves me more than a devoted father loves his own children. The attribute of God's love for us is not beyond us--it simply is not. Our problem is that we do not want to accept an unconditional love from the Creator of the universe. It takes too much humility to understand and accept ourselves for who we are in light of understanding God for who He is.

I know I say this almost every time Ansar Al-'Adl, but thanks for your continuing dialogue !

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello POBook,

This is my refute: Please provide a logical argument for nothing becoming something.

Unfortunately, that is not sufficient to disprove my point. Even if creation was illogical (which you have not demonstrated in the least) it still would not refute my point about the trinity being illogical. I demonstrated that the trinity is self-contradictory. You did no such thing with respect to creation, you simply asked me to explain the 'logic' behind it. Can you show me what is illogical and self-contradictory about creation in the same way I showed you what is illogical and self-contradictory about trinity?

All I am asking you to explain is how nothing can become something.

Explain what you mean by 'how'. Do you mean the process? I never asked you for the process by which God does something, I asked you to reconcile an obvious contradiction in the Christian doctrine of tirnity.

You see, I could not agree with you more on this, Ansar Al-'Adl. I know I keep asking you to provide a logical explanation of making nothing become something. The fact is, I cannot explain the logic behind that; you cannot explain the logic behind that; no one can explain the logic behind that. There is no logic behind it.

Your conclusion does not follow from your premise. The fact that we do not know the process by which God completes something does NOT mean it is illogical. Again, show me what is self-contradictory about creation the way I showed you what was self-contradictory about the trinity.

When it comes to the Trinity, we cannot seek a logical explanation of how God can be three distinct "Beings" all at the same time.

The problem here is definition.

Creation is defined as the act of bringing something into existence. No contradiction there.

Trinity, howver means that we defined God as one, and then we define Him as three - a clear and irreconcilable contradiction.

If you want to admit trinity is illogical, feel free to do so, but to attempt to draw a parallel between creation is clearly false since there is nothing illogical about creation. Show me what is illogical about creation if you disagree.

If I may repeat to you what you said to me: "This (a logical explanantion of the Trinity) borders on asking me to describe the way in which God excercises His power, which is immediately beyond the scope of something we can discuss."

I'm not asking you about a way in which God excercise His power, I'm asking you if you believe in one God or a tri-god!

There is no difference between a creation argument and a Trinity argument.

There is a clear difference which I pointed out to you, but I' afraid some of my points are being ignored. When I explained the logic of creation to you as "nothing ->something" you attempted to explain the logic of trinity as "one->three" but the only problem is that the trinity does NOT say "one->three" but "one=three"!!!

If nothing can become something through the power of God, why can God, through His same power, not exist as three entities all at the same time?

Of course God could exist as three entities at the same time -but then He would no longer be one! He would be three gods.

As for the discussion on the love of God, it doesn't really relate to the argument, but briefly my point was the argument that no one can fully comprehend the measure of God's love. 10 times our love? A million times our love?

 

[POBook]

Hello Ansar Al-'Adl,

Unfortunately, that is not sufficient to disprove my point. Even if creation was illogical (which you have not demonstrated in the least) it still would not refute my point about the trinity being illogical. I demonstrated that the trinity is self-contradictory. You did no such thing with respect to creation, you simply asked me to explain the 'logic' behind it. Can you show me what is illogical and self-contradictory about creation in the same way I showed you what is illogical and self-contradictory about trinity?

My intent is not to demonstrate the logic or lack thereof about creation. All I am asking you to provide is a logical argument or explanation as to how God created something out of nothing.

Quote:
All I am asking you to explain is how nothing can become something.

Explain what you mean by 'how'. Do you mean the process? I never asked you for the process by which God does something, I asked you to reconcile an obvious contradiction in the Christian doctrine of tirnity.

No, I am not asking you to explain the process. I simply want a logical explanation of how nothing can become something, through God's power. Either nothing remains nothing or something remains something. But to say that nothing becomes something is illogical. You believe in God as creating something out of nothing. What is the logic behind this?

Quote:
You see, I could not agree with you more on this, Ansar Al-'Adl. I know I keep asking you to provide a logical explanation of making nothing become something. The fact is, I cannot explain the logic behind that; you cannot explain the logic behind that; no one can explain the logic behind that. There is no logic behind it.

Again, show me what is self-contradictory about creation the way I showed you what was self-contradictory about the trinity.

Again, I am not interested in showing you anything about creation. All I am asking you to do is for you to show me through the logic you use to say the Trinity is self-contradictory or illogical, how creation is logical.

Quote:
When it comes to the Trinity, we cannot seek a logical explanation of how God can be three distinct "Beings" all at the same time.

The problem here is definition.

Creation is defined as the act of bringing something into existence. No contradiction there.

I know the definition of creation. What I want to know is the logic behind bringing something out of nothing into existence. What is the foundation for nothing becoming something?

Trinity, howver means that we defined God as one, and then we define Him as three - a clear and irreconcilable contradiction.

That makes it sound like God divided Himself up into three. Allow me to ask you this: Is God incapable of doing something beyond our logic?

If you want to admit trinity is illogical, feel free to do so, but to attempt to draw a parallel between creation is clearly false since there is nothing illogical about creation. Show me what is illogical about creation if you disagree.

I do not want to show what is illogical about creation. Personally, I do not even think logic fits in with creation. What I want you do do is show me how your use of logic can reconcile nothing becoming something. Please allow me to say this again Ansar (when discussing, may I call you Ansar?), if you or I try to understand God within the boundaries of logic, do you not think we reduce Him to who we are? Is He not able to accomplish things that move outside the realms of logic?

I'm not asking you about a way in which God excercise His power, I'm asking you if you believe in one God or a tri-god!

My God is a Triune God. As much as He is one, He is three. He has the power to stem beyond my logic. If He did not, He would not be all-powerful.

Can God be on this side of the world at the same time He can be on the other side of the world? If so, please explain the logic of God being in two places at one time.

Thanks and sincerely,

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

All I am asking you to provide is a logical argument or explanation as to how God created something out of nothing.[

No, I am not asking you to explain the process. I simply want a logical explanation of how nothing can become something, through God's power.

When you say 'how', that to me means process. That means listing the steps by which God causes into to happen. If not, then you still haven't explained what kind of 'logical explanation' you are looking for.

Either nothing remains nothing or something remains something. But to say that nothing becomes something is illogical.

This may be nitpicky, but I don't say that God transformed nothing into something, but that first there was nothing, and when God created, there was something. Nothing is not a substance that can be transformed.

Again, I am not interested in showing you anything about creation. All I am asking you to do is for you to show me through the logic you use to say the Trinity is self-contradictory or illogical, how creation is logical.

The problem with this is that you don't prove something to be logical. You prove something to be illogical. Its either one or the other. So for you to meet my challenge on the trinity, you would have to demonstrate to me why creation is illogical.

What is the foundation for nothing becoming something?

I don't understand the question, sorry.

Is God incapable of doing something beyond our logic?

Good question, reminds me of the rock-God example. The issue here is that we are not talking about God's potential, but we are making contradictory statements and then applying them to God. For example, if we agree and establish that God is eternal and immortal, and then we assert that God died - we've just contradicted ourselves. We can't ask, "Well isn't an immortal God capable of dying?" because it has nothing to do with God's abilities, but with our flawed logic that we have applied to God. Take another example. Can an omnipotent God do something that is impossible? Though grammatically correct, the sentence is logically flawed. If God did could do soemthing that was impossible, then it wouldn't be impossible! Nothing is impossible for God. So really its just a matter of definitions.

If you want to ask, Can God do something beyond our comprehension, that the answer is of course. But if you want to ask, can God do something illogical, the answer is no, not because of any lack in potential on God's part but because that illogical thing is nothing more than a contradiction existing in the minds of people, with no basis in reality.

when discussing, may I call you Ansar?

Sure.

My God is a Triune God. As much as He is one, He is three. He has the power to stem beyond my logic. If He did not, He would not be all-powerful.

I disagree. God can be all powerful without being a manifestation of a self-contradiction.

Can God be on this side of the world at the same time He can be on the other side of the world? If so, please explain the logic of God being in two places at one time.

A better argument than creation, but I don't believe God is omnipresent anyway, [not in His essence at least].

Regards

 

[Labaik Ya Allah]

Re: Open Challenge to Christians



i gt a question of my own. what is trinity?

Who does the spirit of Truth refer 2?

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Open Challenge to Christians

i gt a question of my own. what is trinity?

Is Trinitarian Ontology Coherent?

 

[root]

Out of interest may I ask the creationists:

1. When did god create the aids virus?
2. How did he get the aids virus onto earth?

Regards

Root

 

[sevenxtrust]

Hello Ansar Al-'Adl,


My intent is not to demonstrate the logic or lack thereof about creation. All I am asking you to provide is a logical argument or explanation as to how God created something out of nothing.

No, I am not asking you to explain the process. I simply want a logical explanation of how nothing can become something, through God's power. Either nothing remains nothing or something remains something. But to say that nothing becomes something is illogical. You believe in God as creating something out of nothing. What is the logic behind this?

Again, I am not interested in showing you anything about creation. All I am asking you to do is for you to show me through the logic you use to say the Trinity is self-contradictory or illogical, how creation is logical.


I know the definition of creation. What I want to know is the logic behind bringing something out of nothing into existence. What is the foundation for nothing becoming something?

That makes it sound like God divided Himself up into three. Allow me to ask you this: Is God incapable of doing something beyond our logic?

I do not want to show what is illogical about creation. Personally, I do not even think logic fits in with creation. What I want you do do is show me how your use of logic can reconcile nothing becoming something. Please allow me to say this again Ansar (when discussing, may I call you Ansar?), if you or I try to understand God within the boundaries of logic, do you not think we reduce Him to who we are? Is He not able to accomplish things that move outside the realms of logic?

My God is a Triune God. As much as He is one, He is three. He has the power to stem beyond my logic. If He did not, He would not be all-powerful.

Can God be on this side of the world at the same time He can be on the other side of the world? If so, please explain the logic of God being in two places at one time.

Thanks and sincerely,

Brother I am on your side and you are totally right and a soldier of the cross. They need to understand we do not look down on them. That we are just hear to contend for the faith that was once delivered onto the saints. The faith being the key word here. You will know what I mean, they will not. Its all about what you said logic...what a word to ponder over in these last days..At the great white throne judgment, many will claim wrong logic..May we continue in prayer..for the coming of Christ and our rapture to Heaven..

Thank You Brother you are an encouragement to me..I thank God for you..

 

[muslimahh]

Brother I am on your side and you are totally right and a soldier of the cross. They need to understand we do not look down on them. That we are just hear to contend for the faith that was once delivered onto the saints. The faith being the key word here. You will know what I mean, they will not. Its all about what you said logic...what a word to ponder over in these last days..At the great white throne judgment, many will claim wrong logic..May we continue in prayer..for the coming of Christ and our rapture to Heaven..

Thank You Brother you are an encouragement to me..I thank God for you..

I'd like to request my Chrisitian brothers and sisters to explain to me the concept of the trinity as I don't understand it fully. In your own words please. Thanks

 

[sevenxtrust]

I'd like to request my Chrisitian brothers and sisters to explain to me the concept of the trinity as I don't understand it fully. In your own words please. Thanks

Quite simply, the trinity is three characteristics of God.

 

[muslimahh]

Quite simply, the trinity is three characteristics of God.

I understand that aspect of it, however what I don't understand are things like, if Jesus (peace be upon him) had divine qualities, why did the apostles not bow down to him. If he was divine, why did he display human needs such as eating, drinking, etc. ?

 

[PrIM3]

I understand that aspect of it, however what I don't understand are things like, if Jesus (peace be upon him) had divine qualities, why did the apostles not bow down to him. If he was divine, why did he display human needs such as eating, drinking, etc. ?

Hey muslimahh well to try to answer your question... He did the human being things because He was human to...

yes Man can't Become a god/s but God can become man. I read this in one of my old Bibles I don't have anymore.. but it simply gave an example...

a man looks outside and sees birds in trouble ( cought up in a storm ) now he trys to go outside and lead and speak to the birds but all is impossible because the birds and the humans are different animals different beings.
and also the birds are scared of another animal that is different than it is (if you understand it still..

but if the guy could turn into the same species as the bird it could speak and lead them to where safety is without causing fear...
wouldn't someone bigger than you stronger than you and DIFFERENT than you scare you away?
so God came as human flesh to the earth did the same thing as we did relieved himself, ate, talked, taught, laughed, and died--- God knows all the problems we have He of course went through it... so that is why it is said God will never put you in a situation that you can't handle because it wouldn't be right...

for an example where we get it wrong.. is the 10 commandments.. I am not saying they are wrong nooo nooo.. but those are just the outside of what the real laws are...

the first 4 commandments of the 10 are basically the law of Love the Lord your God with all your heart soul strength and mind.. then the 6 are the Love your neighbor...