Atheism

Is there evidence for the existence of God?


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Greetings,
Salam,
if someone does not organize a creation, then how can it come on its own.
things don't move on their own.

Nobody knows. The origin of the universe is probably the biggest mystery there is.

Peace
 
Nobody knows. The origin of the universe is probably the biggest mystery there is

there is no mystery here....if science can explain everything, let it explain that. but it cant because science CANNOT explain everything. Islam+science is what explains the creation of the universe and also the creation of everything else. < which again comes to the point that quran has science in it. :rollseyes

:w:
 
Um, do I know you? Have you met every atheist and come to this conclusion? Your comment is just as silly as someone saying: "Muslims in general are among the most arrogant people in the world."


Hi,

i apologise i didnt make it clear enough when i said 'in general', perhaps in future when making generalisations i will extend the use of 'in general' to make it more clear for you.

You can not deny that 99% of atheists have not read a single line from a single holy book, rubbishing them and having never read or bothered to learn about any of them is a wonderful arrogant trait.

I am very impressed that you are one of the rare and precious few that have actually bothered to discover and question, i wish there were more of you.
 
So do you still think that God does not exisit, when in the Quran it mentions the a certain punishment where people will have their skin burned then given new skin.
How does any one know back then about pain reciptors.
no one, there for God exists.

Sorry? Every child burns his fingers at some point in time. You are seriously claiming that those children were unaware of how much it hurt until scientists came and told them they had pain receptors? Come on now!
 
You cited a narration from Sahih Bukhari in order to support your claim that the Qur'an has been changed,

Let me distance myself from that claim. I do not and would not claim that the Quran had been changed. That would be foolish because it would lead to a ban and I do not know enough to make that claim anyway. Presumably I made some other claim but I cannot remember what it was. I will get back to you once I have checked.

but there are a couple of points to note:
-if that verse was not in the Qur'an at the time of Umar and was supposed to be, then why wouldn't he and the other companions include it in the compilation? Why would they not include it and then warn people that a time would come when people would think the ruling of rajam was not revealed?

I do not know. But why would Bukhari have included that hadith in his collection if he knew it was wrong? It is not the changing that I would argue about, but the degree of open-mindedness. Whatever was or was not done to the Quran (and I would prefer to leave that topic well alone) Bukhari was willing to consider that perhaps a verse was left out. No one around here is any more I bet. That change is interesting to me. The Quran is less so.

-if you think Umar was warning the people of a time in the future when that verse may not be part of the compilation, then how did Umar know that the verse would later be removed?

It is not important, but is that what he is saying? I think he is saying that it was not in the Quran when he was speaking, and he was worried that people in the future would argue that because it is not in the Quran they would no longer stone. So it had been, well not removed, but not found in the Quran when he was speaking. What he was saying was that it was not in the Quran when he became Caliph, and so he needed to assert that Muhammed had stoned and he would too.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 82, Number 816:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

'Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." 'Umar added, "Surely Allah's Apostle carried out the penalty of Rajam, and so did we after him."​

The above two points are sufficient to refute your interpretation of the hadith. As for the correct interpretation, this is one of the verses whose recitation has been abrogated, yet its ruling remains. It has nothing to do with alteration of the Qur'an.

Which interpretation is that and how does it refute anything? I do not follow your interpretation - you are claiming that the verse on stoning was revealed, but it is not important for Muslims to recite it and so it was not included in the Quran but the ruling remains in effect? This just raises more questions than it answers - how many other revelations are not in the Quran in your opinion?

I will look up exactly what I said and perhaps we can try again to discuss that?
 
hmmmm... but the hadith says that one day.....this day is referred to the days when the day of judgement is nearing. during those days, faithful people are to be very low in number and astry and bad people are to surround the world.

But that is not the point. One day Muslims might argue that stoning is not in the Quran and hence it is not Islamic - some Muslims do to this day. The only real question from my point of view was why is the verse on stoning not in the Quran? Bukhari was clearly willing to consider that perhaps some verses were not included in the Quran. Why aren't you?
 
I think he is saying that it was not in the Quran when he was speaking, and he was worried that people in the future would argue that because it is not in the Quran they would no longer stone. So it had been, well not removed, but not found in the Quran when he was speaking.
Precisely. The verse of rajm is an example of naskh of the recitation while the ruling remains in effect.

you are claiming that the verse on stoning was revealed, but it is not important for Muslims to recite it and so it was not included in the Quran but the ruling remains in effect?
I didn't say that it wasn't included because it was not important for Muslims to recite. The recitation of the verse was abrogated, meaning that it is not included in the text of the Qur'an and that it cannot be recited in prayer. So the ruling of stoning becomes like the other rulings from the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh - they are divinely inspired.

This just raises more questions than it answers
I'm sure it would, especially if someone is unfamiliar with the doctrine of naskh.
how many other revelations are not in the Quran in your opinion?
The entire sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh is from God, yet not recited.

I will look up exactly what I said and perhaps we can try again to discuss that?
Sure. I would prefer if you made a new thread on this topic, and then I'll move the relevant posts from this thread into that thread.

Peace
 
But that is not the point. One day Muslims might argue that stoning is not in the Quran and hence it is not Islamic - some Muslims do to this day. The only real question from my point of view was why is the verse on stoning not in the Quran? Bukhari was clearly willing to consider that perhaps some verses were not included in the Quran. Why aren't you?

i dont get your point here...are you talkin about the future or the present??:?

and 1 more thing i thought of this morning is that...say for example...u have one really good friend and the other one not so good freind...one accuses the other of backbiting about you. the other person denies it. hence who are you to believe?? the good 1 or the no so good one?? ofcourse ur goodfreinds because you have faith in him/her. u trust them.

therefore, as science accuses the aspect of faith, i just gave you this example that we use faith in everyday life....not only faith in God or faith in the unseen.

:w:
 
Greetings,
and 1 more thing i thought of this morning is that...say for example...u have one really good friend and the other one not so good freind...one accuses the other of backbiting about you. the other person denies it. hence who are you to believe?? the good 1 or the no so good one?? ofcourse ur goodfreinds because you have faith in him/her. u trust them.

therefore, as science accuses the aspect of faith, i just gave you this example that we use faith in everyday life....not only faith in God or faith in the unseen.

That's a good point. I also use faith when I sit down in a chair, because I have faith that the chair is not going to disappear away from under me and into a parallel universe. However, I have good reasons for having faith in that case (i.e. chairs just don't do that sort of thing), whereas in the case of god I have no good reason for having faith.

Peace
 
oh yeah and another point...

say if the front glass of a car roke because of accident, i dont think that you will find any shaped broken galss that will fit the size of any other glasses (spectacles). why not?? it is because the breaking of the glass was not planned. thus it could not fit into the spectacles.

this is compared to the earth and its people....i mean Allah planned this creation of the earth and heavens and that is why we find ourselves being able to live here. if you say its evolution, then why not send a group of people to mars and leave them there saying that evolution will make them able to cope with their surroundings. but that will never happen....because mars or any other planet other than the earth was not created for humans to live in.

:w:
 
Greetings,


That's a good point. I also use faith when I sit down in a chair, because I have faith that the chair is not going to disappear away from under me and into a parallel universe. However, I have good reasons for having faith in that case (i.e. chairs just don't do that sort of thing), whereas in the case of god I have no good reason for having faith.

Peace

why wouldnt you believe that chairs dont move? its because you know and you have FAITH! in the similar way we know that God exists and we have FAITH!

czgibson said:
(i.e. chairs just don't do that sort of thing),

a world out of an empty space!!! that jus cant happen.

:w:
 
Greetings,
i mean Allah planned this creation of the earth and heavens and that is why we find ourselves being able to live here. if you say its evolution, then why not send a group of people to mars and leave them there saying that evolution will make them able to cope with their surroundings. but that will never happen....because mars or any other planet other than the earth was not created for humans to live in.

Does this discount the possibility of life on other planets? If there were living beings on other planets, do you think they would worship the same god as you?

The Anthropic Fallacy and Natural Law

Peace
 
Greetings,


Does this discount the possibility of life on other planets? If there were living beings on other planets, do you think they would worship the same god as you?

The Anthropic Fallacy and Natural Law

Peace

we do not know if there are any life on mars or whatever planet there is as ther is no scientific proof.... and neither does it say in the Que'an....so we do not know what they do and their properties.

:w:
 
Greetings,
we do not know if there are any life on mars or whatever planet there is as ther is no scientific proof.... and neither does it say in the Que'an....so we do not know what they do and their properties.

Quite so. That's why I'm asking you to think hypothetically.

I asked a conditional question - I wasn't making a statement.

Peace
 
Do you think taht God created vat kind of living in this small world but other part of huge universe?People whose intelligence has gone down their eyes cannot see and know them.Those stars and Sun and other planet are not empty.Imagine for a few minutes that point:Is there any where on the Earth where there is no living.God's smallest creatures germs and insects and plants covered all over the land.You cannot see , forinstance, germs without microscope.Like that, you cannot see Angels which live every part of universe without something which help to see it.You can see physical objects with your eyes whic placed on your face.You cannot see spiritual things with your that eyes.In this point Human intelligence gets insufficient.Divine inspiration helps us to understand it.And again our intelligence can go on its task...
 
:sl:

Sister the Qur'an does support the big bang theory or perhaps I misunderstood your post:confused:

By the way, Root has left the forum. That was rather unfortunate as he/she/it didn't have the chance to learn much,

:hiding:
God has, in the Quran, detailed how He has created the Universe. I remember He has said that the earth and the skies were joined together and He subsequently seperated them, as He says:"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" [21:30] This, in now way, is the confirmation of the so-called big bang which is still a vague presumption only. On the contrary, God says:"When He decrees a thing, He said unto it only:Be ! and it is! " These verses do not speak of any bang, big or small.
 
God has, in the Quran, detailed how He has created the Universe. I remember He has said that the earth and the skies were joined together and He subsequently seperated them, as He says:"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" [21:30] This, in now way, is the confirmation of the so-called big bang which is still a vague presumption only. On the contrary, God says:"When He decrees a thing, He said unto it only:Be ! and it is! " These verses do not speak of any bang, big or small.

I am sorry but how do you go from cloving the Heavens and the Earth (which was not created yet) asunder to the Big Bang? What sort of description is in the Quran and how does it relate in any way shape or form to the Big Bang?
 
You're right thats not what that verse means.
 
I am sorry but how do you go from cloving the Heavens and the Earth (which was not created yet) asunder to the Big Bang? What sort of description is in the Quran and how does it relate in any way shape or form to the Big Bang?

Salam

{21-30} Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

Everything was one, then the bang happened(controlled by Allah).
Make sense.


--sorry for the repeat.

This relates to the big bang because the big bang theory states that everything was one big mass, and then an explosion happened so everything came to be. In this verse it says that everything was split(taken apart) from one piece.
 
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