Political Benefits of Jihad in Palestine?

[snakelegs]

elsewhere on this forum there has been much glorification of jihad and shaheeds. i had raised this question on the "why sisters their husbands to go for jihad" but the thread was closed shortly afterward due to bickering between some of the members and i would still like to explore it.
i am putting this in the world affairs section because i don't want to discuss the theological aspects of jihad nor am i qualified to do so.
i want to discuss the political aspect.
since palestine is the subject we are generally most familiar with i will limit this to palsestine and point out that i am not questioning the motivation at all.
my question is: can anyone name one positive thing the jihadis have accomplished in palestine? some one said jannah but this seems to me a rather selfish reply. all the shaheeds have accomplished is to bring even more suffereing on their people because the israelis retaliate by being even more vicious. houses are bull dozed, people are rounded up and there is more killing. how can this be a good thing? it may be someone's ticket to heaven but what about the families and neighbours that he leaves behind?
so again, can anyone tell me how his action brought improvement in the lives of his people?

 

[Knut Hamsun]

Re: Political Benefits of Jihad?

all the shaheeds have accomplished is to bring even more suffereing on their people because the israelis retaliate by being even more vicious. houses are bull dozed, people are rounded up and there is more killing. how can this be a good thing?

It can't be a good thing. When are people going to realize that the Israelis are never going to leave! The Palestinians LOST THE FIGHT!!! It takes a man/people with a huge heart and an even bigger brain to ADMIT DEFEAT!! Look at Japan after WWII--do you know how many people (esp. Chinese) the Japanese slaughtered in WWII? Do you know how hard and long they fought? I can't imagine how hard it would be for a people with such a glorious history (excluding the slaughter of millions) and profound code of honour to have ADMITTED DEFEAT and ACCEPT THE HELP OF THE VICTOR TO REBUILD THEIR NATION FROM THE ASHES AND RUBBLE. Palestinians, take a hint, the Israelis are so far more militarily advanced, are so far richer, that there is no possible way to win. The more shaheeds, the less Palestinians there will be in their possible nation. Be a noble people, Palestinians, have a big heart, and ADMIT DEFEAT.

 

[mahdisoldier19]

Re: Political Benefits of Jihad?

There is no possible way to win? How could they have lasted this long then? They only have rocks and stone to throw are the israeli army. I wonder how they could last for over 50 years. Without Military.

 

[Knut Hamsun]

Re: Political Benefits of Jihad?

Mahdi,
What have they won? No modern nation can completely defeat millions of people throwing rocks, launching nighttime rpgs, and suicide bombing unless they kill all of the people belonging to that ideological group. The Israelis are nice enough not to kill ALL of the Palestinians. Just because the Israelis won't kill all of the Pals and never will doesn't mean the Pals ever have a chance of winning. Look, the Israelis are too stubborn to ever leave!!! Why should the Palestinians keep ruining their childrens' lives for an "unwinnable" war?

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

As far as the concept of Jihad is concerned:
http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=64
http://www.load-islam.com/c/rebuttals/Misquoted
http://www.load-islam.com/c/Islam/JihadExplanation

As far as the issue of palestine is concerned:
http://islamonline.net/english/intifada/palestine-special/index.shtml
http://www.islamonline.net/English/In_Depth/PalestineInFocus/index.shtml

 

[Knut Hamsun]

Ansar AL -Adl,
thanks for the links. will read them now!

 

[snakelegs]

As far as the concept of Jihad is concerned:
http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=64
http://www.load-islam.com/c/rebuttals/Misquoted
http://www.load-islam.com/c/Islam/JihadExplanation

As far as the issue of palestine is concerned:
http://islamonline.net/english/intifada/palestine-special/index.shtml
http://www.islamonline.net/English/In_Depth/PalestineInFocus/index.shtml

thanks for all the links. i have glanced at them (no time to read fully) and i don't think any of them are saying things i don't already know.
my question is more down to earth and practical. what does it accomplish? what has any palestinian shaheed achieved by his act in lessening the suffering of his people?

 

[Knut Hamsun]

what has any palestinian shaheed achieved by his act in lessening the suffering of his people?

I think that alot of Palestinians are proud of someone when he/she martyrs themself. Or maybe they think it is an honourable thing to do for their cause. I don't think it has lessened any sense of suffering of other Palestinians, though. Death is death is death to the living left behind.

 

[Nicola]

Israelis are never going to leave!

No they aren't...Jesus stated Israel was going to return home, which happen in 1948
This is Gods' plan.
now we must wait for the 10 lost tribes to return...has we are also told will happen..
Nothing will stop Gods plan beging fulfilled..
Nothing..
Palestinian are fighting a losing battle.

 

[snakelegs]

I don't think it has lessened any sense of suffering of other Palestinians, though.

it is not just that it doesn't lessen the suffering of other palestinians - it makes it worse than it was before.

 

[HeiGou]

Re: Political Benefits of Jihad?

What have they won? No modern nation can completely defeat millions of people throwing rocks, launching nighttime rpgs, and suicide bombing unless they kill all of the people belonging to that ideological group. The Israelis are nice enough not to kill ALL of the Palestinians. Just because the Israelis won't kill all of the Pals and never will doesn't mean the Pals ever have a chance of winning. Look, the Israelis are too stubborn to ever leave!!! Why should the Palestinians keep ruining their childrens' lives for an "unwinnable" war?

Actually they have won. Partially. They got Israel to disgorge Gaza. The fact is that the Israelis and the West have given the Palestinians nothing. They will go on giving the Palestinians nothing. Whatever the Palestinians have got or will get, is a result of their struggle for justice. No modern nation can deal with the problem as it is now without policies that amount to genocide. Which Israel may think about but is unlikely to implement. So it is not a question of "niceness", it is a question of viability. The Israelis may be too stubborn to leave. But if they are too stubborn to leave with terror, they will be too stubborn to leave without it. It is not the Palestinians who are ruining their children's lives. It is the Israeli occupation and the Israeli denial of justice. The only sensible alternative to violence is justice - which means allowing those forcibly removed from their homes in 1948 to return home. As justice is not an option the only possible option is for the Palestinians to struggle.

Even I think that.

 

[mahdisoldier19]

If Heigou thinks that then it must be true I mean its Heigou come on

 

[Knut Hamsun]

Mahdi,
lol yeah Heigou knows his(?) history and can debate very well. But I am stubborn!heh.

Actually they have won. Partially

"winning" is absolute. Can't be partially. Did Israel reverse their crushing victory over Egypt by giving them back the Sinai Peninsula? A concession, yes, a win, no.

The fact is that the Israelis and the West have given the Palestinians nothing. They will go on giving the Palestinians nothing.

My reply is a bit out of context and pedantic, but here goes, anyhow:
The Palestinians receive more aide money, medicine and food(from the west) than any other group in the world. They would simply starve and die without it. Full stop. And a crap load of weapons etc from the arab/muslim world.

But if they are too stubborn to leave with terror, they will be too stubborn to leave without it

I agree. This is my point. They should stay. Because they will NEVER leave.

The only sensible alternative to violence is justice - which means allowing those forcibly removed from their homes in 1948 to return home

Please be a realist for a minute. We know that the Israelis are never going to allow for the right of return--it wouldn't be a Jewish state if they permitted such. I have said, here, nothing resembling "I think they are right/wrong" (maybe I have ,doh!) as I can sympathize with both sides here. But when suicide-bombing is the final, ultimate offense for a cause, it is time to call it quits, be the "bigger person", and end it.

 

[snakelegs]

Re: Political Benefits of Jihad?

The only sensible alternative to violence is justice - which means allowing those forcibly removed from their homes in 1948 to return home. As justice is not an option the only possible option is for the Palestinians to struggle.
Even I think that.

i agree with you that there is almost no chance that the palestinians will see justice from the israelis. but their struggle only seems to stimulate more suffering and injustice.
i don't think the israelis left gaza because of the intifada - i think they wanted to dump it because of its huge population and at the same time grab some more land on the west bank.

 

[snakelegs]

i was really hoping that some of the people who have glorified the jihadis would address the question: what have the shaheeds accomplished in palestine, except to bring more suffering to the palestinian people? anything positive?
this is not to discuss motivation, which is easy to understand, but to look at it practically. what good comes out of a palestinian becoming a shaheed?

 

[HeiGou]

If Heigou thinks that then it must be true I mean its Heigou come on

Well you miss my point. It is not that if I think that it must be true, but even if I, who is not well known for being fond for Hamas and Islamist terror, think that, well, it must be a fairly mainstream opinion.

 

[HeiGou]

"winning" is absolute. Can't be partially. Did Israel reverse their crushing victory over Egypt by giving them back the Sinai Peninsula? A concession, yes, a win, no.

I disagree. Most wins are partial. Don't let the history of America fool you. Did Israel reverse their win over Egypt? Well no, but Egyptian violence forced Israel to consider concessions and they got the Sinai back. Has Palestinian terror got Israel out of Gaza? Yes it has and at a lower price than Egypt paid. It is not a final victory but it is a step on the path.

My reply is a bit out of context and pedantic, but here goes, anyhow:
The Palestinians receive more aide money, medicine and food(from the west) than any other group in the world. They would simply starve and die without it. Full stop. And a crap load of weapons etc from the arab/muslim world.

Well Israel and Egypt are the two biggest recipients of US aid but I will conceed that the Palestinians are entirely dependent on UN aid which is paid for by the West. But leaving them to starve, while possible, is not a viable option given Western public opinion. Nor do I see it as relevant.

I agree. This is my point. They should stay. Because they will NEVER leave.

They have left Gaza. A huge proportion of young Israelis already live overseas. As life in Israel becomes more brutal and less worth living, I expect that more will do so.

Please be a realist for a minute. We know that the Israelis are never going to allow for the right of return--it wouldn't be a Jewish state if they permitted such. I have said, here, nothing resembling "I think they are right/wrong" (maybe I have ,doh!) as I can sympathize with both sides here. But when suicide-bombing is the final, ultimate offense for a cause, it is time to call it quits, be the "bigger person", and end it.

I agree they will never give the Palestinians a right of return. Which is why the Palestinians will have to fight for it. They have tried peaceful protest, they have tried normal guerilla warfare and they have tried terror. They have found that suicide bombing works for them. And it works. There is no point saying that they should be bigger people because it ain't going to happen and why should it? Palestinians have an alienable right to live in their homeland and frankly the Israeli Jewish population is better off in the West. At some point enough violence will make one side or the other compromise. Which side do you think that will be? It is just a question of how many people have to die before the Palestinians get some justice.

In the meantime the West, which ahs given them nothing, will go on giving them nothing. As Mao Zedong once said, brooms don't sweep floors by themselves.

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

So what, should they just sit there and continue to be oppressed?

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

I disagree. Most wins are partial. Don't let the history of America fool you. Did Israel reverse their win over Egypt? Well no, but Egyptian violence forced Israel to consider concessions and they got the Sinai back. Has Palestinian terror got Israel out of Gaza? Yes it has and at a lower price than Egypt paid. It is not a final victory but it is a step on the path.



Well Israel and Egypt are the two biggest recipients of US aid but I will conceed that the Palestinians are entirely dependent on UN aid which is paid for by the West. But leaving them to starve, while possible, is not a viable option given Western public opinion. Nor do I see it as relevant.



They have left Gaza. A huge proportion of young Israelis already live overseas. As life in Israel becomes more brutal and less worth living, I expect that more will do so.



I agree they will never give the Palestinians a right of return. Which is why the Palestinians will have to fight for it. They have tried peaceful protest, they have tried normal guerilla warfare and they have tried terror. They have found that suicide bombing works for them. And it works. There is no point saying that they should be bigger people because it ain't going to happen and why should it? Palestinians have an alienable right to live in their homeland and frankly the Israeli Jewish population is better off in the West. At some point enough violence will make one side or the other compromise. Which side do you think that will be? It is just a question of how many people have to die before the Palestinians get some justice.

In the meantime the West, which ahs given them nothing, will go on giving them nothing. As Mao Zedong once said, brooms don't sweep floors by themselves.

I agree with you there.

 

[itsme01]

all the shaheeds have accomplished is to bring even more suffereing on their people because the israelis retaliate by being even more vicious. houses are bull dozed, people are rounded up and there is more killing. how can this be a good thing?

bro.

First of all lets look at the term Jihad: it means Struggle.

...what the people of palestine have been doing is struggling. Struggling against the occupation and harsh reality of death caused by Israeli Army. The Houses are bulldozed, the blood runs in the street more frequent than the water, sisters are raped, brothers are killed and torutured.

Now, I ask, if all these things were already occuring pre-retaliation by Mujahideen - how come anything worse can come?