Death Penalty

[POBook]

Re: Islam and Apostasy

Greetings to you Sargon,

"I would just like to say that this debate is very interesting and you are both knowledgable."

Thank you very much for your words of encouragment !

In these days if someone decides to change their faith, my opinion would be to follow the verse in the Quran quoted a few posts ago before the debate, the general message being "you go your way and I go my way."

I understand what you are saying here. My problem with this approach is that it reflects a lack of love for someone; a lack of concern over why they choose to do what they do. To us, this is the uniqueness of true love. It can hold someone accountable with an open mind and despite what they choose to believe, to continue loving them and accepting them for who they are. Yes, this is certainly easier said than done. If I feel my child is going in the wrong direction, I will do what I can to re-direct her. But I will never ex-comuunicate her from my family; I will never threaten her with her life; I will never try to make her life misrable.

If there are groups of people that deliberately try to corrupt Islam, and make people disbelieve it's a serious crime and in an Islamic state should be understandable why death is an option.

Again, I understand what you are saying here. Unfortunately, Christianity has suffered much the same way. Many people have taken Christianity and corrupted it; distorted it and done all sorts of things in the name of it. This is not true Christianity. These people are not true and humble followers of Jesus. Why true Christianity has endured the corrupters of our faith for so long, is because that is part of the nature of true Christianity--to love the enemy and to pray for those who persecute. We do not have to accept corrupt theologies; but we accept and love the corrupt theologians and do what we can to help them understand the truth of the Scriptures. In the end, we leave people like this in God's hands and allow Him to deal with them as He sees fit.

"Is this person trying to harm Islam? Which is why a Caliph, a real divinely chosen caliph needs to deal with the situation, it's not a simple matter to be taken into the hands of normal people."

I may be taking this statement of yours slightly out of context, but I want to use it to point out something I think is an important issue. The three largest religions in the world are Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. They are very similar in many aspects but in the most crucial aspects of all, they are totally different. Unfortunately, many Jews, Muslims, and Christians fail to respect one another. They feel it is their responsibility to harm one another's religions and to try converting people to their own religion. This happens when people have become their own god. Speaking from the Christian point of view, this is not my responsibility. My responsibility is to dialogue, debate, and discuss religeous issues in a respectful way. I like to do this as best as I can, especially with Muslims, I people group whom I love. I say all that to say I never desire to try and harm Islam. I desire to share the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Great talking with you. You have an open mind !

 

[Andaraawus]

Re: Islam and Apostasy

Did God have a change of character or did he appoint a new God to take His role? was the God in Moses time a cruel entity whilst the God of Jesus time a Merciful one?

The question marks are not there as a matter of question but yet a matter of thought, one thing that gets me is Christians now days strongly disagree with capital punishements and stick beat Islam and being a cruel and babaric reilgion whilst their religion is a relgion of love, God is loooove is the slogan chant.

but yet as demonstrated God also commaned Capital Punishmenet in the Bible, now one can spin around and triple backflip and then land on his feet in his word play but the fact of the matter remains.

In Christianity the Adulteress is doomed to the fire but yet in Islam the Adulteress is forgiven of their sin because they took the punishment in this world, they are given paradise, i would like you to show me a text in which says the adulteress that is stoned to death is forgiven. theres no arguement whether capital punishment stands.

The loss of capital punishment has only caused the worst of people to emrege such as peodophilia, thier crime could have been death but yet we find them locked up only to come out and ruin another girls life.

But yes of course , God is love .... and he wouldnt want his child to persih would he now?

please put the teddy bears and the flowers away, and re read the evidence that has been presented.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Islam And Apostasy

Greetings POBook,
I just realized I never answered your question.

I appreciate what you are saying in regard to apostasy and it's historical context. Why, however, are many Muslims themselves afraid, very afraid of converting to Christianity?

For you to claim that 'many' Muslims are afraid of converting to Christianity, you would have to provide evidence. The truth of the matter is that there is no way for you to substantiate such a claim.

If my child, before becoming a true believer in Jesus Christ, decided to go the way of Islam, naturally I would be concerned. However, I would continue to love my child. She would always be a part of my family.

What if your child became an atheist and grew up attacking Christianity as falsehood? Although you may still care for your child I am sure you would hate what they are doing and wouldn't protest if God decided to punish them in the next life for their blasphemy and rejection of His great love and mercy.

In Islam, our relation to God is more dear to us than our relation to someone who happens to be our relative. If our relatives commit an offence than we would not go any lighter on them than if they were not our relatives.

Regards

 

[POBook]

Re: Islam and Apostasy

Greetings Ansar Al-'Adl,

Thanks for your response to an ealier message.

For you to claim that 'many' Muslims are afraid of converting to Christianity, you would have to provide evidence. The truth of the matter is that there is no way for you to substantiate such a claim.

Have you ever heard of "honor killings"?

What if your child became an atheist and grew up attacking Christianity as falsehood?

Naturally I would be very upset. But I would not disassociate my child from the family. She will always be loved and will always be part of our family. I will never try to instill within her a fear for her life. I would continue to love my child. I would also leave my child in God's hands for Him to do with her as He chooses. My role as the Father and the parent is to love my child, no matter what. This does not mean that I have to accept all she may choose to do. But I will never reject her.

Sincerely,

 

[POBook]

Re: Islam and Apostasy

Hello Andaraawus,

Before I respond to your last message, I would like to find out how long a message you are willing to read. What is always very important to me is to explain Scripture within its context. The Bible is not a mass of verses that are disconnected from one another. Every verse in the Bible is connected. It is easy to take verses out of context and the result is misunderstanding. I would like to explain to you the context of Old Testament law; the context of the Jewish people; the context of Jesus and his fulfillment of the Law. This may be quite long. Are you willing to read a long response?

Sincerely,

 

[Andaraawus]

Re: Islam and Apostasy

Have you ever heard of "honor killings"?

Honour killings are performed by hindus and those who are from the subcontinent who claim to be Muslim but yet still follow hindu tradition. find honour killings in the doctrine of Islam and you might just have a case.

i feel your response will be educational .

However i i was to show you a verse that implys the capital punishment of your own child would you still accept this as the same God who is love?

and secondly where in Christian scripture does it say that the adulteress is forgiven and given paradise after her punishment?

 

[POBook]

Re: Islam and Apostasy

Greetings Andaraawus,

Thanks for your response. I will work on the lengthy explanation. Hopefully I will be clear in my communication.

Yes, I would love to see the verse that implies capital punishment of my own child.

and secondly where in Christian scripture does it say that the adulteress is forgiven and given paradise after her punishment?

First, Christianity does not teach paradise after punishment. We either go to paradise for eternity or we go to hell for eternity. If we went to hell to serve a "sentence" and then we could go to paradise, the opposite would come into effect. We could go to paradise for some time and then end up in hell. Where we spend eternity is decided on this earth. The result of that decision when we die can never be changed. Second, here is the example Jesus set using adultary:

Joh 8:1 But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
Joh 8:2 At dawn He went to the temple complex again, and all the people were coming to Him. He sat down and began to teach them.
Joh 8:3 Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, making her stand in the center.
Joh 8:4 "Teacher," they said to Him, "this woman was caught in the act of committing adultery.
Joh 8:5 In the law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do You say?"
Joh 8:6 They asked this to trap Him, in order that they might have evidence to accuse Him. Jesus stooped down and started writing on the ground with His finger.
Joh 8:7 When they persisted in questioning Him, He stood up and said to them, "The one without sin among you should be the first to throw a stone at her."
Joh 8:8 Then He stooped down again and continued writing on the ground.
Joh 8:9 When they heard this, they left one by one, starting with the older men. Only He was left, with the woman in the center.
Joh 8:10 When Jesus stood up, He said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
Joh 8:11 "No one, Lord," she answered. "Neither do I condemn you," said Jesus. "Go, and from now on do not sin any more."

Sincerely and thanks for your dialogue,

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Islam and Apostasy

Have you ever heard of "honor killings"?

"honor killings" have absolutely nothing to do with Islam.
http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_section.cfm?q_id=154&main_cat_id=6

Naturally I would be very upset. But I would not disassociate my child from the family. She will always be loved and will always be part of our family. I will never try to instill within her a fear for her life. I would continue to love my child. I would also leave my child in God's hands for Him to do with her as He chooses. My role as the Father and the parent is to love my child, no matter what. This does not mean that I have to accept all she may choose to do. But I will never reject her.

You would love someone whom God condemns, and you would accept someone who rejects God and whom God rejects?

Let's take an example. The Bible says:
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Now if one's child became a sorceress, wouldn't they have to kill them?

Regards

 

[Andaraawus]

Re: Islam and Apostasy

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people." (Deuteronomy 13:6-9)

This is the Same God speaking right? not like its a new president in office since the commence of Matthew Chapter 1 verse one onwards.

I dont want to sound senile but i have already answered every angle of the verses quoted from John .... though if you insist i will break it down for you point for point .

 

[POBook]

Re: Islam and Apostasy

Greetings Ansar Al-'Adl,

Thanks for your response.

I understand what you are saying about honor killings not being a part of Islam. Why, however, do some Muslim people perform this? We live in a city where just recently there was an honor killing in a Muslim family--the brother killed his sister to restore family honor.

You would love someone whom God condemns, and you would accept someone who rejects God and whom God rejects?

The way you have phrased this reflects a great misunderstanding of God. God is Almighty; He is all-Holy; He is all-Righteous; He is all-perfect. God condemns no one and rejects no one. What God hates, abhors, despises, rejects and condemns is the sin and not the sinner--"For God so loved the world..." (John 3:16). "This is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins" (1 John 4:10). My desire is to pattern my life after God. Jesus taught, "Love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you." He did not teach us to love the acts of sin; He does not love the acts of sin. I want to love and accept the same people whom God loves and accepts--everyone. I want to despise and reject the same sins that God despises and rejects--all sin. Because I am not in God's shoes, I cannot give heaven or hell. People sin not against one another. They ultimately sin against God.

Let's take an example. The Bible says:
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Now if one's child became a sorceress, wouldn't they have to kill them?

No. First, this was a command given to the Jewish people and was part of the old covenant between God and His chosen people (I will be responding to Andaraawus concerning the whole context of the law). Second, Jesus came to provide a new covenant. "I new command I give unto you: love one another. As I have loved you, you must also love one another" (John 13:34).

I hope this answers your questions.

 

[POBook]

Re: Islam and Apostasy

Hey Andaraawus,

Just want to know if you will be able to respond to # 44?

Sincerely,

 

[Andaraawus]

Re: Islam and Apostasy

Mankind sinned. As a result, mankind faced a punishment.

Allahs unlimited Mercy flys in the face of the concept of original sin and blood to wash away the sin, Adam slipped and repented and was forgiven, he only blamed himself whereas the Bible states he blamed no other than eve who then passed the buck to the serpant, the Bible is not in contrast with the Quran which shows that Adam repented to His Lord and then His Lord was soooooooooooo Merciful to him that he forgave him there and then.

Plus the concept of origanal sin is cruel, you say about children and loving them? and hating to put capital punishment on them but yet we have the concept of origanal sin in which babys children are punished for somebody elses sin, their forefathers in which Ezkeil 18:20 refutes the notion of this.

We believe in a Merciful God that is forgiving and can forgive anybody when they ask for His forgiveness, you dont have to accept no blood but ask for forgiveness and He wont hold anybodys elses sin against you , God is not unjust and He does not hold grudges.

In the Qur’an there is a verse that says 'no soul shall bare the burden of another’.

There was no other alternative…no other road mankind could take except the road to hells…until GOD, through Jesus Christ paid the price for our sin

yes indeed there was alternative, to repent and believe in Allah , Moses and the believers that followed him are going to paradise, and the same goes for Abraham and his family …..its silly to say there was no other alternative until Jesus came along .

the next issue is that the whole crucifix issue with Jesus is in question because if we were to do some simple mathematics we would find that Jesus was not crucified.

In Islam, do you believe in a Just GOD?

Yes , please speak whats on your mind ….i want to see what youre trying to get at

Some things you wrote I really don’t have the time to answer because really they don’t stand relevant to this discussion and therefore are known as red herrings diverting the topic from the real issue at hand , although out of all you have ‘refuted’ I will touch on one point .

God commands that a womans hands be cut off for sqeezing a mans testicles, whilst her husband is being attacked by him , she does it in defence of her husband , to help him from being killed but yet God commands to chop her hands off and show no pity but in this same chapter He is merciful with a cow but not merciful with a woman , look in verse 4 ‘do not muzzle the ox’ so the ox can eat.

The fact is why can God forgive the adulterer who does worser than sqeeze a mans testicles but yet this poor woman gets punished , so I ask you do you believe in a just God? There is always a alternative brother and that is Islam.

I will be happy to discuss the subjects Gods love is it conditional? Gods wrath , Mercy, is God Just and so forth .....peace

and please be merciful and make your replys breif. it takes a lot of time to answer long posts and i am not guaranteed to catch everything . so i will choose whats suffices , the most important issues and discard the rest.

 

[Andaraawus]

oh yeh i forgot about this .....hang on p.o ...lemme recap

 

[Muslim Knight]

Re: Islam and Apostasy

I think this is one of the differences between Islam and Christianity. In Islam, GOD is understood to love those who follow His law; those who are righteous; those who repent for their sins. In Christianity, GOD loves the prostitute and the tax collector; He loves the sinner and the unrighteous—so much does He love them, that He came to this earth to pay the penalty for their transgression of the law.

To say “especially those who repent for their sins”, is that not the same as saying GOD has favorites; that GOD loves certain people more than others?

Peace

God loves you enough to keep you alive even while you are sinning against Him. He does this waiting for your repentance. Even the hard-core idol worshipper or prostitute lives by the grace of God. You know that the air that they breathe? Even that Allah created for them to take in everytime, just to survive! Only when they die (having not repented) will the final chastisement of Hell reach them. Allah says in the Quran, those who enter Hell deserve so, because they have been ungrateful to their own Creator and Cherisher.

Just imagine this. God created you and created all the things you need just to survive. The air you breathe, the water you drink, even your soul. This is His love for you! What do you do? You worship other than Him and you worship your own desires. Is this your gratitude towards Him? Is this your love?

This is the difference between Islam and Christianity.

In Christianity you are taught that God is love. Which is why people get confused in many instances, they worship love and not God. Then we have problems of pre-marital sex, extra-marital sex and promiscuisity, AIDS, the lot. We love & worship our own partners intensely, instead of our Creator. How ungrateful we are to God!

In Islam, we are taught that God is not Love (Hubb), but He is Full-Loving (Al-Wadood) and Oft-Forgiving (Al-Ghafur). Everytime we sinned against Him, we are asked, commanded, to repent to Him and follow His guidance. Through His Al-Quran and His Prophet's sayings, we are taught that if we repent sincerely to Him, our repentance will be accepted. We learn that Allah has inscribed Himself, Mercy, hence His Name The Merciful (Ar-Raheem).

 

[root]

Being non-religous I don't much care for a religous stance on the death penalty. My "personal" view is that no one system including Islam can prevent an innocent man from being sentenced to death. In conclusion, to accept the death penalty is to accept innocent people will wrongfully be executed hence I am opposed to the death penalty.........

In Christianity you are taught that God is love. Which is why people get confused in many instances, they worship love and not God. Then we have problems of pre-marital sex, extra-marital sex and promiscuisity, AIDS, the lot. We love & worship our own partners intensely, instead of our Creator. How ungrateful we are to God!

Your in cloud cuckoo land, nice in theory but that is all. Even if society was rose tinted like you subscribe to, AIDS would not have been stopped.

 

[Ghazi]

Being non-religous I don't much care for a religous stance on the death penalty. My "personal" view is that no one system including Islam can prevent an innocent man from being sentenced to death. In conclusion, to accept the death penalty is to accept innocent people will wrongfully be executed hence I am opposed to the death penalty.........

Salaam

Really, What about the mast murderers don't they deserve to be killed for their crime.

 

[Al-Mu'min]

Salaam.

Concerning the topic, these are the rules according to Islam.

Allah says: “O you who believe! The law of retribution is prescribed for you in cases of murder.” [Surah al-Baqarah: 178]

The relatives of the victim have three options open to them. They may pardon the killer. They may opt to receive monetary compensation in the form of blood money(diyah). They may request retribution (qisas).

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Whoever has one of his relations murdered has the choice either to receive compensation thereto or have the killer killed.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî (2434) and Sahîh Muslim (1355)]

This is done before a proper court of law. If the releatives of the deceased opt for retribution, then the court is obliged to carry out the execution on their behalf. Otherwise, they have no jurisdiction to execute the murderer.

Peace.

 

[Al-Mu'min]

My question is: If the killer is pardoned, does he serve jail-time, or is he free? And if he recieves the death penalty, is he forgiven by Allah ( for this sin) in the hereafter?

 

[root]

Really, What about the mast murderers don't they deserve to be killed for their crime.

I have nothing against killing murderers as "an eye for an eye". Again, the problem is innocent people do not deserve to die for murders they never commited. To kill the deserving is to accept we kill the undeserving.

 

[mizan_aliashraf]

My question is: If the killer is pardoned, does he serve jail-time, or is he free? And if he recieves the death penalty, is he forgiven by Allah ( for this sin) in the hereafter?

Salam
The one who faces the death penalty is forgiven by allah, as his death is forgiveness by allah
And Allah knows best
Wassalam