Religion and atheism "the everlasting battle"

Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

Why not?
The fact that we do not believe in the argument doesnt make it any less of one. Still needs to be adressed.
We are getting a little off topic here.

All I am saying it is not an argument against existence of God!
 
Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

Greetings,


Really?



The Invisible Pink Unicorn, of course!



Nope. Darwin lived before dark matter had been suggested; he says nothing about cosmology; while he does talk about cells he doesn't say who made them.



Do you know what a theory is? I suspect not.

Peace

Hey gibson watch it im not here to insult ok. and anyway you are contradicting yourself if the "invisible pink unicorn" made the universe then u have a creator. :giggling:
 
Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

Greetings,
Hey gibson watch it im not here to insult ok.

You don't have to insult anyone - no-one's forcing you...

and anyway you are contradicting yourself if the "invisible pink unicorn" made the universe then u have a creator. :giggling:

Quite right - well spotted. Here's the definition of irony for you, just in case you didn't get it:

Irony

Peace
 
Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

Actually no one does. It is not meant to be believed in, rather provide just another argument of why God doesnt exist.

I am not sure She exists merely to prove that God does not exist. But She can certainly be used to show that many Theist arguments are poorly structured and thought-out. She is used more in an exercise in logic than in disproving God's existence. After all a Theist has to not only believe in a God, but in their particular God. And most arguments that can be used to support any one God can also be used to support the Invisible Pink Unicorn.
 
Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

I just read this Q & A, looks inetresting and linked to this thread


Question :


A non muslim friend of mine asked how i will prove existence of god and why has he given us life,and with what purpose. my answer did not satisfy him ,please tell me what i should tell him?

Answer :

Praise be to Allaah.

My dear Muslim brother, your efforts to call people to Allaah and explain the reality of Allaah’s existence make us very happy. Finding out about Allaah is in tune with the sound fitrah (natural inclinations of man) and with sound reasoning. How many there are who, once the truth becomes clear to them, they hasten to submit to Allaah (enter Islam). If each one of us was to do his duty towards his religion, a great deal of good would be achieved. So we congratulate you, our brother, for undertaking the mission of the Prophets and Messengers, and we give you the glad tidings of the great reward which you are promised, as your Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “If Allaah were to guide one man at your hands, that would be better for you than red camels.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3/134; Muslim, 4/1872). “Red camels” are the best kind of camels.

Secondly:

With regard to proof of the existence of Allaah, it is obvious to anyone who ponders the matter, and there is no need for a lengthy discussion. When we ponder the matter, we find out that it is divided into three categories: instinctive evidence, tangible evidence and shar’i evidence. We will explain that to you further, in sha Allaah.

1 – Instinctive evidence:

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen said:

The instinctive evidence that God exists is the strongest of all evidence for those who are not led astray by the devils. Hence Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“So set you (O Muhammad) your face towards the religion (of pure Islamic Monotheism) Haneef (worship none but Allaah Alone). Allaah’s Fitrah (i.e. Allaah’s Islamic Monotheism) with which He has created mankind” [al-Room 30:30]

Man’s sound nature (fitrah) testifies to the existence of God and man cannot turn away from that unless the devils mislead him; whoever is misled by the devils may not recognize this evidence.”

(From Sharh al-Safaareeniyyah)

Every person feels inside himself that he has a Lord and Creator, and he feels that he is in need of Him; if some major calamity befalls him he turns his hands, eyes and heart towards the heavens, seeking help from his Lord.

2 – Tangible evidence:

This refers to the things that exist in this universe; we see around us things that exist, such as trees, rocks, mankind, the earth, the heavens, seas, rivers…

If it is asked: these things are so many – who created them and is taking care of them?

The answer is that if these things came into being by accident, spontaneously and with no cause, then there is no one who knows how they were created, and that is one possibility. But there is another possibility, which is that these things created themselves and are taking care of themselves. And there is a third possibility, which is that there is Someone Who created them. When we look at these three possibilities, we find that the first and the second are impossible. If we reject the first and the second, then the third must be the one which is correct, which is that these things have a Creator who created them, and that Creator is Allaah. This is what is stated in the Qur’aan, where Allaah says:

“Were they created by nothing? Or were they themselves the creators?

Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, but they have no firm Belief” [al-Toor 52:35]


Moreover, when were these mighty things created? For all these years, who is it that has decreed that they should remain in this world and has granted them the means of abiding?

The answer is, it is Allaah who has given to each thing that which is suited to it and will guarantee its survival. Do you not see the beautiful green plants; when Allaah cuts off their water supply, can they live? No, rather they become dry stalks. If you ponder all things you will find that they are dependent upon Allaah. Were it not for Allaah, nothing would remain.

And Allaah has created everything to do that for which it is suited. So camels, for example, are for riding. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Do they not see that We have created for them of what Our Hands have created, the cattle, so that they are their owners.

And We have subdued them unto them so that some of them they have for riding and some they eat” [Yaa-Seen 36:71-72]


Look at the camel and how Allaah has created it strong, with a strong back, so that it can be used for riding and it is able to endure harsh conditions which other animals cannot bear.

If you look at other creatures you will find that they are suited to the purposes for which they were created. Glory be to Allaah.

Examples of tangible evidence include the following:

When calamities befall people this points to the existence of the Creator, for example, when they call upon Allaah and Allaah responds to their prayer; this points to the existence of Allaah. Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen said: “When the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) prayed for rain, he said, ‘Allaahumma aghithnaa, Allaahumma aghithnaa (O Allaah, send us rain, O Allaah, send us rain).’ Then a cloud came and it started to rain before he had even come down from the minbar. This points to the existence of the Creator.” (Sharh al-Safaareeniyyah).

3 – Shar’i evidence:

All divinely-revealed laws point to existence of Allaah. Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen said:

“All the divinely-revealed laws point to the existence of the Creator and to the perfect nature of His knowledge, wisdom and mercy, because these laws must have been prescribed by someone, and that Lawgiver is Allaah.” (From Sharh al-Safaareeniyyah).

With regard to your question: why did Allaah create us?

The answer is: so that we would worship Him, thank Him and remember Him, and do that which He has commanded us. You know that among mankind there are kaafirs and there are Muslims. This is because Allaah wants to test His slaves as to whether they will worship Him or worship others. That is after Allaah has showed the way to everyone. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Who has created death and life that He may test you which of you is best in deed” [al-Mulk 67:2]

“And I (Allaah) created not the jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me (Alone)” [al-Dhaariyaat 51:56]


We ask Allaah to enable us and you to do that which He loves and is pleased with, and to do more da’wah and work for the sake of His religion. May Allaah send blessings and peace upon our Prophet Muhammad.



Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid (www.islam-qa.com)
 
Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

Greetings Moss,

Thanks for your post. It takes us through a rather limited approach to some of the standard arguments. I'll try and explain what I mean:

With regard to proof of the existence of Allaah, it is obvious to anyone who ponders the matter, and there is no need for a lengthy discussion.

This is certainly not true. Many people have pondered the matter at great length and decided that there is no god.

1 – Instinctive evidence:

Every person feels inside himself that he has a Lord and Creator, and he feels that he is in need of Him; if some major calamity befalls him he turns his hands, eyes and heart towards the heavens, seeking help from his Lord.

This is an assertion without foundation. Many people have no instinctive sense that they have a "Lord and Creator". Unless by "Creator" you mean one's parents, then I fall into the category of someone who has never had a sense that there is a god.

2 – Tangible evidence:

This refers to the things that exist in this universe; we see around us things that exist, such as trees, rocks, mankind, the earth, the heavens, seas, rivers…

If it is asked: these things are so many – who created them and is taking care of them?

The answer is that if these things came into being by accident, spontaneously and with no cause, then there is no one who knows how they were created, and that is one possibility. But there is another possibility, which is that these things created themselves and are taking care of themselves. And there is a third possibility, which is that there is Someone Who created them. When we look at these three possibilities, we find that the first and the second are impossible. If we reject the first and the second, then the third must be the one which is correct, which is that these things have a Creator who created them, and that Creator is Allaah.

This is a form of the argument from design (put very weakly, to be frank). The writer gives three possible explanations of how existent objects in the universe came to be, then rejects the first two possibilities while giving no reason for this rejection. Anyone who is convinced by this dogmatic style of argumentation really needs to study more.

The answer is, it is Allaah who has given to each thing that which is suited to it and will guarantee its survival. Do you not see the beautiful green plants; when Allaah cuts off their water supply, can they live? No, rather they become dry stalks. If you ponder all things you will find that they are dependent upon Allaah. Were it not for Allaah, nothing would remain.

This is an example of the gambler's fallacy.

Examples of tangible evidence include the following:

When calamities befall people this points to the existence of the Creator, for example, when they call upon Allaah and Allaah responds to their prayer; this points to the existence of Allaah. Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen said: “When the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) prayed for rain, he said, ‘Allaahumma aghithnaa, Allaahumma aghithnaa (O Allaah, send us rain, O Allaah, send us rain).’ Then a cloud came and it started to rain before he had even come down from the minbar. This points to the existence of the Creator.” (Sharh al-Safaareeniyyah).

I thought examples like this came under the author's first heading, instinctive evidence? He seems to have become confused by his own system.

3 – Shar’i evidence:

All divinely-revealed laws point to existence of Allaah. Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen said:

“All the divinely-revealed laws point to the existence of the Creator and to the perfect nature of His knowledge, wisdom and mercy, because these laws must have been prescribed by someone, and that Lawgiver is Allaah.” (From Sharh al-Safaareeniyyah).

I've seen many circular arguments in my time, but none quite so blatant as this. If you believe that some laws can be divinely revealed, then you already believe in something divine, so this argument will only convince someone who is already a theist. Even then, it doesn't add anything that they didn't already believe.

I think Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid would definitely benefit from a course in philosophy, or, failing that, a few discussions with the forum's own Ansar Al-'Adl, who is far more proficient at arguing this case.

Peace
 
Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

Greetings,


You don't have to insult anyone - no-one's forcing you...



Quite right - well spotted. Here's the definition of irony for you, just in case you didn't get it:

Irony

Peace
Gibson ur getting really cheeky i am a muslim and want to live up to my name so dont insult!!!
 
Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

Greetings,
Gibson ur getting really cheeky i am a muslim and want to live up to my name so dont insult!!!

Sorry, I wasn't aware that I'd insulted you. It was a vain attempt at sharing a joke with you. Since it's backfired, please accept my apologies.

Peace
 
Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

Greetings,


Sorry, I wasn't aware that I'd insulted you. It was a vain attempt at sharing a joke with you. Since it's backfired, please accept my apologies.

Peace
Apology accepted no offense but i did kinda warn you before but you probably didn't read it.
 
Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

Greetings,


Sorry, I wasn't aware that I'd insulted you. It was a vain attempt at sharing a joke with you. Since it's backfired, please accept my apologies.

Peace
Apology accepted no offense but i did kinda warn you before but you probably didn't read it.peace
 
Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

Anyway we all need to stick to the subject: can it be proved to an atheist? What do you think czgibson?
 
Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

I would say probably not atheists have a strong belief in darwins theory right? please tell me if im wrong.
 
Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

Greetings,
Anyway we all need to stick to the subject: can it be proved to an atheist? What do you think czgibson?

I don't think it's possible to prove either that god exists or that he doesn't. There's no real evidence either way.

I think it's much more likely that there is no god, and that everything attributed to him has simply been invented by humans. That's why I call myself an atheist - not because I have definitive proof that there's no god.

I would say probably not atheists have a strong belief in darwins theory right? please tell me if im wrong.

I would say most atheists believe in Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection - there may be a few that don't. Put it this way, every atheist I've met certainly believes it.

Peace
 
Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

Not replying to anybody but in particular here

Logical + Commen Sense (viz intelligence) = Knowledge
Logical + No commen Sense (viz no intelligence) = Speculations

Scientists/Athiests have No commen. Big subject.:heated:
 
Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

Greetings,
Not replying to anybody but in particular here

Logical + Commen Sense (viz intelligence) = Knowledge
Logical + No commen Sense (viz no intelligence) = Speculations

Scientists/Athiests have No commen. Big subject.:heated:

Eh?

Perhaps you'd be kind enough to explain what you're on about.

Peace
 

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