Did Jesus (p) Deny Being God?

salamz.....
it is obvious .........in QURAN (the main) that ALLAH send messengers to guide the mankind ... isint it ? and Hazrat ISA (saw) who is called JESUS by christians is one of the messengers ..... he came to this world to deliver a msg ...
and secondly ...i dont believe in bibles... becoz the real bible doesnt exist cuz people have made changes ... like there r soo many bibles ... modern bibiles etc....
Hazrat Isa (SAW) is not the son of God, which is stated in Quran as well, u can see Surah IQHLAAS .... rite ?? and a/c to muslim believe Hazrat Isa will cum agn to this world ... to fight against dajjal ...
Jazakullah
wassalam
 
Brother Nimrod,
Welcome back and may peace be upon you. I hope you are fine today.:)
Folks I have been catching up on the thread. One of the first things that I noticed is there was a new member to the discussion that was imo abusing the word God by using it as his user name.
I don’t know if he is of the Christian faith or not. But if he is I would like to offer an apology to the forum on behalf of Christians every where.
I don’t approve of his use of the word God as a user name. Also I would like to apologize for his posting style. The apostle Paul was a much better example to follow in style.
That brother has been banned. I sent him a private message urging him to change his username. He didn't listen and you know the rest. Just some kind of misunderstanding from his part.:okay:
We should not use our posts to beat someone into submission. We should use our postings to lead to a common understanding.
You are right and I agree totally. We are here to understand one another's faith and to create a loving brotherhood amongst us. I deeply apologise if I or anyone else, seem to be pushing a bit harder than needed. We should dialogue with respect for one anothers beliefs.:thankyou:
I am sure that you all see me as being misguided in my understandings and beliefs, just the same as I see Islam as being misguided and Muslims being mistaken.
Yes. That is why we should try to debate in a respectful manner, why we think we are right.
I am doing my best to lead Islam to a better understanding, as I am sure you are trying to do lead me and my faith to a better understanding.
Agreed.:happy:
If you ever catch me posting as the new member was doing, please call my hand on it and ask me to stop it.
You have shown nothing but respect from your part and thank you.
 
Al- Mu’ min I have been going back over a few things.
One thing I have tried to stress is that in trying to determine if scripture is man made (tampered with) or from God. That is about the biggest and most common mistake I have seen Muslims making as I study and read this forum.

Why is it a mistake brother? Inorder for us to understand each other, we need to express what we believe. Once we have done that, then it is time to prove our beliefs with proof and evidence.

Do you know why Muslims stress on the fact that the bible isn't the word of God? We do it for the sole reason of trying to make you understand that God is perfect. And His messengers are also perfect. In how many places in the Bible does it attribute God to violence? In how many places does it in the Bible attribute unnaceptable behavior(all kinds of sins) to prophets? We are trying to tell you that these things cannot come from our lord.

If you insist the bible is all true then you are believing that God and His prophets

1.Pedophilia with 3-year old slave girls in the Bible.
2.Forcing 3-year old slave girls into sex during the Mosaic Law in the Bible. 3.Terror in the Bible by a number of Prophets.
4.Pregnant women will be ripped open.
5.The NT punishes children with death.
6.Terrorism: "kill all the boys and non-virgin women".
7.Also under the Mosaic Law!
8.Another killing all men, women, children and animals by Moses. 9.Another taking all women and children as spoils of war by Moses. 10.Moses was a murderer before he became a Prophet.
11.Killing all of the "suckling infants" by the thousands by Saul.
12.Dashing little children against rocks in the book of Psalm!
Praising the dashing of little children against rocks as a form of revenge.
13. 42 innocent children were killed using Wild Bears by Prophet Elisha!14.Both equal: "Kill Righteous and the wicked"!
15.Maiming of the enemies' bodies under Moses' and David's Laws:
Cutting the hands and feet of the enemies in the Bible, and hanging their alive bodies on trees until they DIE.
16.David's Selective Murders. David so carelessly killed an innocent man for only telling him news.
17.X-Rated Pornography in the Bible, by King Solomon. Literally, women's vaginas and breasts taste like "wine", and brothers can "suck" their sisters' and lovers' privates. 18.Fathers' fingers into their daughters' reproductive organ. 19.Under the Mosaic Law, fathers were allowed to do "Digital Defloration" to their daughters.

All here in detail:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/no_personal_revenge.htm
Pick up your bible and verify them yourself. I hope I'm mistaken.

Please try to understand the words you are attributing to your Lord and my Lord and reflect. I know you'll agree that the Al-Mighty is perfect and we are not. Then you will have to conclude that theses accusations above are man made. Why would any messenger or prophet of God commit such attrocious sins? Prophets are soposed to be our role models. What message is God sending us if He allows and records these actions from them in His book? Are we supposed to follow them?

The Quran, God's final word, clears out the misconceptions angainst Him and his prophets.
Please open the Quran. Question every verse. Look for contradictions and scienifical errors. Countless people have tried before you, and no one has succeeded. I beg you to try.

I have seen scripture I have posted on this very thread being dismissed for no logical reason. The only reason given in some cases is that it doesn’t agree with the Koran.
Please rewrite the scripture you are talking about.

You have to understand that we believe some of the Bible is correct. So this raises the question:What parts of the Bible do Muslims believe are closest to the Truth? and Why?
Please read:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/warning.htm

The illogical reason that seems to given is that man can not corrupt God’s scripture.

Nothing is illogical if proven. Go back in this thread and I have given you enough proof to fill a booklet. If you want more, please ask.

The reason this is illogical is that the Muslims strongly state that much scripture before the Koran has been corrupted.

Not without proof.

So on one hand we have statements saying scripture cannot be corrupted all the while these same people are saying that scripture has been corrupted.

The only person in this thread brother who mentioned that the bible cannot be corrupted is Nicole. Her reason was that God wouldn't allow it. We have proven her wrong.
Muslims believe that the Quran is the final word of God. No Christian,Jew,Athiest,Agnostic,Hinduist,Buddhist have proven us wrong.

I didn’t want to guilty of doing the same thing with scripture you posted, so here is why I doubt your scripture is from God and that it is only from man’s imaginings:

Proof that Mohammed didn't author the Quran:
http://www.theholybook.org/en/a.6249.html
Dozen's of allegations against Mohammed answered:
http://www.theholybook.org/en/a.6249.html

Please don't imply something brothers and sisters without proof to back them up.

Mary pointed to the child; but they said, 'Hoe shall we speak to one who still in the cradle, a little child. And he said, 'Lo, I am God's servant, God has given me the Book and made me a Prophet Blessed He has made me ,wherever/may be; and hi has enjoined me to prayer, and to give the alms so long as I live, and likewise to cherish my mother; He has not made me arrogant and wicked. Peace be upon me, the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I am raised up a live.

Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave,

Please verify brother what you think is wrong with either verse. In the first verse, Jesus speaks in the craddle.And in the second verse Jesus (by God's leave) creates a bird out of clay. He has done bigger miracles than these by God's leave.

It makes no sense that the men you accuse of tampering with the bible omitting your scripture lesser than he is and it makes no sense for these same men after omitting your scripture that they would leave the scripture you discount as false in place.

I had explained this one earlier in this thread. If you want me to rewrite my explanation. Feel free to ask.

It makes no sense that the very ones who knew him best (the Apostles) would fail to know of the miracles you cited and not to have mentioned them.

By the way, none of the apostles wrote the Bible. So this raises another question:
Just who were the real authors of the Bible?
Read this article:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/authors_gospels.htm

The sections of that article are:

1- Just who were the real authors of the Bible?
2- So who wrote the Bible then? Were they really the original Prophets and Disciples?
3- The New Testament was written in the 4th century by Constantine and his council by their own words.
4- The Roman Catholic Encyclopedia admits that the Bible had been "altered".
5- Contradictions in historical claims and accounts.
6- Conclusion.

Please take the time to read. After thoroughly reading this article, I would like you to answer the following questions:

1- Is all of the Bible GOD's Divine Revelations?
2- Did the Prophets of GOD really write the Bible of today?
3- Is the Bible perfect?
4- Did man indeed corrupt the Bible?
5- Is the Bible of today reliable?

If your answer is no to most of or all of the above questions except for #4, then i'm sorry to say that your faith has serious problems!

It makes no sense what so ever.
Please specify brother what doesn't make sense. We will discuss them one by one.

We both agree that God isn’t the author of confusion, so I have to credit Islam with the confusion because it must agree with earlier scripture or be able to explain why not.
Brother Vpb answered them perfectly. Please answer his questions.

I am sure you credit the Christian with the source of confusion. Fair enough as long as your reasoning stands up to reason.

I hope my reasoning has stood up to reason. Now the challenge is yours.
Please read carefully ever link i have provided. I'm looking forward to our next dialogue.

Thanks,
Nimrod
Always welcome.

Peace out.
 
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This is more honesty then we are used to seeing around here. Please keep it up.

A true believer of The almightywill always tell the truth and recognize when his path has becomed corrupted.:?

"He that have ears listen to what The Spirit of God says"
 
the proof is the Qur'an itself...
and in the Qur'an it says,

Indeed they disbelive, who say, God is the third of three(in a trinity)," when there is no God but one God. If they desist not from what they say, truly a painful punishment will befall the disbelivers among them. Would they not rather repent to God and ask His forgivness? For God is OFt-Giving, Most Merciful. The Messiah (Jesus), son of Mary, was no more then a messenger.
(Qur'an 5;73-75)

and there are other Quranic verses that support this. The whole Qur'an itself supports this, and we already stated this previously.

another one is,Indeed they disbelived who said: "God is the Messiah (Jesus), son of Mary, .The Messiah (Jesus) said: "Children of Israil, worship God, my Lord and your Lord. Whoever associates partners in worship with God, then God has forbidden paradise for him, and his home is the Fire, (Hell). For the wrongdoers, there will be no helpers."
(Qur'an , 5;72)

If you want to get more information, I suggest you look up the source as well, from someone thats Islamic scholar.
we cant convince you into anything, and you can see for yourself all the evidence given AND Islam itself.

now your telling me that the Qur'an is the Word of God.. may I ask you under what proof do you know that the Qur'an is the devine book of God...
 
excuse me the koran is the word of god! and god wrote that!

o please fear your lord and i will pray that god will help you :)

why do you want proof why can't you do some reasearch!

take care
 
according to my understanding some of the New Testaments if not all were letters written to different new born churches... and from what I learned is that the Jews were good at telling a event that happened many many years laters after it happened 1000 of years before. so it is impossible for the Jews to make mistake.

I am telling you this off memory from what I have learned...
 
bro i heard that story too when i was a christian but no it is not true!


take care
 
excuse me the koran is the word of god! and god wrote that!

o please fear your lord and i will pray that god will help you :)

why do you want proof why can't you do some reasearch!

take care

hello and peace islamgyal,

your telling me that the qur'an is the divine book... I want proof... you say that allah sent down the qur'an... how do you know this is this what they call blind faith or did it actually happen?
you should know.. just telling me that the qur'an is truth and nothing but truth is like telling a person who loves hersheys. that reases peanut butter cup taste better.. where is the proof?

Peace,
 
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Do you know why Muslims stress on the fact that the bible isn't the word of God? We do it for the sole reason of trying to make you understand that God is perfect. And His messengers are also perfect. In how many places in the Bible does it attribute God to violence? In how many places does it in the Bible attribute unnaceptable behavior(all kinds of sins) to prophets? We are trying to tell you that these things cannot come from our lord.

Umm, how many places does the Quran attribute violence to God? I am sorry but from what I can see violence is one of the attributes of God. You can insist that prophets have to be perfect, but that is neither the Jewish or the Christian tradition. Why do you think they have to be?

If you insist the bible is all true then you are believing that God and His prophets

1.Pedophilia with 3-year old slave girls in the Bible.

Where does it say that in the Bible?

2.Forcing 3-year old slave girls into sex during the Mosaic Law in the Bible.

Where does it say that in the Bible?

3.Terror in the Bible by a number of Prophets.
4.Pregnant women will be ripped open.
5.The NT punishes children with death.
6.Terrorism: "kill all the boys and non-virgin women".
7.Also under the Mosaic Law!
8.Another killing all men, women, children and animals by Moses.
9. Another taking all women and children as spoils of war by Moses.
10. Moses was a murderer before he became a Prophet.
11. Killing all of the "suckling infants" by the thousands by Saul.
12.Dashing little children against rocks in the book of Psalm!
Praising the dashing of little children against rocks as a form of revenge.
13. 42 innocent children were killed using Wild Bears by Prophet Elisha!
14.Both equal: "Kill Righteous and the wicked"!
15. Maiming of the enemies' bodies under Moses' and David's Laws:
Cutting the hands and feet of the enemies in the Bible, and hanging their alive bodies on trees until they DIE.
16. David's Selective Murders. David so carelessly killed an innocent man for only telling him news.
17. X-Rated Pornography in the Bible, by King Solomon. Literally, women's vaginas and breasts taste like "wine", and brothers can "suck" their sisters' and lovers' privates.
18.Fathers' fingers into their daughters' reproductive organ.
19. Under the Mosaic Law, fathers were allowed to do "Digital Defloration" to their daughters.

All here in detail:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/no_personal_revenge.htm
Pick up your bible and verify them yourself. I hope I'm mistaken.

Here is the problem - you are using a Hate Site. This site contains nothing of any value about Christianity or Judaism and is much worse than the equivalent Christian one. None of these claims, or few of them, is remotely true and they are, in fact, a pack of lies. Try to find any of them actually in the Bible.

Why would any messenger or prophet of God commit such attrocious sins?

Because in this case they are not, a Muslim had lied and lied and lied again.

The only person in this thread brother who mentioned that the bible cannot be corrupted is Nicole. Her reason was that God wouldn't allow it. We have proven her wrong.
Muslims believe that the Quran is the final word of God. No Christian,Jew,Athiest,Agnostic,Hinduist,Buddhist have proven us wrong.

Really? How have you proved him wrong? Self-evidently if you're still a Muslim no one has come up with proof to your statisfaction, but then I doubt that Nicola is going to be convinced to become a Muslim either.

Proof that Mohammed didn't author the Quran:
http://www.theholybook.org/en/a.6249.html
Dozen's of allegations against Mohammed answered:
http://www.theholybook.org/en/a.6249.html

I object to the word "proof" being used to describe that first site.


Again the same use of the same old hate site.
 
bro heigou you just can't believe that izlam is a truthful religion!

take care
 
right here you go bro prim3 here is the proof :)

The sacred text of Islam, considered by Muslims to contain the revelations of God to Muhammad. Also called Alcoran.

Qur'an or Koran (kōrăn', –rän') [Arab.,=reading, recitation], the sacred book of Islam. Revealed by God to the Prophet Muhammad in separate revelations over the major portion of the Prophet's life at Mecca and at Medina, the Qur'an was intended as a recited text, and was not compiled as a single volume during the life of the Prophet. The establishment of the canonical text is attributed to the 3d caliph, Uthman, who appointed a committee (651–52) to reconcile the conflicting versions then available, under the direction of Zaid ibn Thabit, one of the Prophet's scribes. The internal organization of the Qur'an is somewhat ad hoc. Revelations consisted of verses (ayat) grouped into 114 chapters (suras). The arrangement of the suras is mechanical: the first, al-Fateha or “the Opening,” is a short prayer exalting God that has become an essential part of all Islamic liturgy and prayer. The rest are graded generally by length, from longest to shortest. It is thus impossible to tell from the book the chronological order of revelations; generally, however, the shorter suras, more electric and fervent than the rest, are the earlier, while many of the longer ones (and all of those revealed at Medina) are later. The Qur'an refers to religious and historical events but seldom provides comprehensive accounts. Its focus is their significance, rather than their narration. God in the Qur'an speaks in the first person. Tafsir, Qur'anic exegesis, initially emerged as a branch of the science of Hadith, in the attempt to gather Muhammad's elucidations of obscure Qur'anic passages, then developed into a separate discipline with the introduction of etymological and literary analysis tools. Being the verbatim Word of God, the text of the Qur'an is valid for religious purposes only in its original Arabic, cannot be modified, and is not translatable, although the necessity for non-Arabic interpretations is recognized. This has made the Qur'an the most read book in its original language and preserved a classical form of Arabic as an Islamic lingua franca and medium of learning.

Here are the proof of Quran has sent down by Allah:

There are hundreds of religions flourishing around the world: Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Bahaism, Babism, Zoroastrianism, Mormonism, Jehovas Witnesses, Jainism, Confucianism etc. And each of these religions claim that their scripture is preserved from the day it was revealed (written) until our time. A religious belief is as authentic as the authenticity of the scripture it follows. And for any scripture to be labeled as authentically preserved it should follow some concrete and rational criteria.


Imagine this scenario:

A professor gives a three hour lecture to his students. Imagine still that none of the students memorized this speech of the professor or wrote it down. Now forty years after that speech, if these same students decided to replicate professor's complete speech word for word, would they be able to do it? Obviously not. Because the only two modes of preservation historically is through writing and memory.

Therefore, for any claimants to proclaim that their scripture is preserved in purity, they have to provide concrete evidence that the Scripture was written in its entirety AND memorized in its entirety from the time it was revealed to our time, in a continuous and unbroken chain. If the memorization part doesn't exist parallel to the written part to act as a check and balance for it, then there is a genuine possibility that the written scripture may loose its purity through unintentional and intentional interpolations due to scribal errors, corruption by the enemies, pages getting decomposed etc, and these errors would be concurrently incorporated into subsequent texts, ultimately loosing its purity through ages.

Now, of all the religions mentioned above, does any one of them possess their scriptures in its entirety BOTH in writing AND in memory from the day of its revelation until our time.

None of them fit this required criteria, except one: This unique scripture is the Qur'an - revelation bestowed to Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) 1,418 years ago, as a guidance for all of humankind.

Lets analyze the claim of the preservation of the Quran...




Memorization

'In the ancient times, when writing was scarcely used, memory and oral transmission was exercised and strengthened to a degree now almost unknown' relates Michael Zwettler.(1)

Prophet Muhammad (S): The First Memorizer

It was in this 'oral' society that Prophet Muhammad (S) was born in Mecca in the year 570 C.E. At the age of 40, he started receiving divine Revelations from the One God, Allah, through Archangel Gabriel. This process of divine revelations continued for about 22.5 years just before he passed away.

Prophet Muhammad (S) miraculously memorized each revelation and used to proclaim it to his Companions. Angel Gabriel used to refresh the Quranic memory of the Prophet each year.

'The Prophet (S) was the most generous person, and he used to become more so (generous) particularly in the month of Ramadan because Gabriel used to meet him every night of the month of Ramadan till it elapsed. Allah's Messenger (S) use to recite the Qur'an for him. When Gabriel met him, he use to become more generous than the fast wind in doing good'. (2)

'Gabriel used to repeat the recitation of the Qur'an with the Prophet (S) once a year, but he repeated it twice with him in the year he (Prophet) died'. (3)

The Prophet himself use to stay up a greater part of the night in prayers and use to recite Quran from memory.

Prophet's Companions: The First Generation Memorizers

Prophet Muhammad (S) encouraged his companions to learn and teach the Quran:

'The most superior among you (Muslims) are those who learn the Qur'an and teach it'. (4)

'Some of the companions who memorized the Quran were: 'Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, Ibn Masud, Abu Huraira, Abdullah bin Abbas, Abdullah bin Amr bin al-As, Aisha, Hafsa, and Umm Salama'. (5)

'Abu Bakr, the first male Muslim to convert to Islam used to recite the Quran publicly in front of his house in Makka'. (6)

The Prophet also listened to the recitation of the Qur'an by the Companions: 'Allah Apostle said to me (Abdullah bin Mas'ud): "Recite (of the Quran) to me". I said: "Shall I recite it to you although it had been revealed to you?!" He Said: "I like to hear (the Quran) from others". So I recited Sura-an-Nisa' till I reached: "How (will it be) then when We bring from each nation a witness and We bring you (O Muhammad) as a witness against these people?"' (4:41) 'Then he said: "Stop!" Behold, his eyes were shedding tears then'. (7)

Many Quranic memorizers (Qurra) were present during the lifetime of the Prophet and afterwards through out the then Muslim world.

'At the battle of Yamama, many memorizers of the Quran were martyred. 'Narrated Zaid bin Thabit al Ansari, who was one of those who use to write the Divine Revelations: Abu Bakr sent me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra were killed). Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said: "Umar has come to me and said, the people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be some casualties among the Qurra (those who memorized the entire Quran) at other place..."' (8)

'Over the centuries of the Islamic Era, there have arisen throughout the various regions of the Islamic world literally thousands of schools devoted specially to the teaching of the Quran to children for the purpose of memorization. These are called, in Arabic, katatib (singular: Kuttab). It is said that the Caliph 'Umar (634-44) first ordered the construction of these schools in the age of the great expansion'. (9)



Second Generation Memorizers:

"...Quranic schools were set up everywhere. As an example to illustrate this I may refer to a great Muslim scholar, of the second Muslim generation, Ibn 'Amir, who was the judge of Damascus under the Caliph Umar Ibn 'Abd Al-Aziz. It is reported that in his school for teaching the Quran there were 400 disciples to teach in his absence". (10)



Memorizers in Subsequent Generations:

The Number of Katatib and similar schools in Cairo (Egypt) alone at one time exceeded two thousand. (11)

Currently both in the Muslim and non-Muslim countries thousands of schools with each instructing tens of hundreds of students the art of memorizing the entire Quran. In the city of Chicago itself, there are close to 40+ Mosques, with many of them holding class for children instructing them the art of Quranic memorization.



Further Points of Consideration:

* Muslims recite Quran from their memory in all of their five daily prayers. * Once a year, during the month of Fasting (Ramadan), Muslims listen to the complete recitation of the Quran by a Hafiz (memorizer of the entire Quran) * It's a tradition among Muslims that before any speech or presentation, marriages, sermons, Quran is recited.



Conclusion:

Quran is the only book, religious or secular, on the face of this planet that has been completely memorized by millions. These memorizers range from ages 6 and up, both Arabic and non-Arabic speakers, blacks, whites, Orientals, poor and wealthy.

Thus the process of memorization was continuous , from Prophet

Muhammad's (S) time to ours with an unbroken chain.

"The method of transmitting the Quran from one generation to the next by having he young memorize the oral recitation of their elders had mitigated somewhat from the beginning the worst perils of relying solely on written records..." relates John Burton (12)

"This phenomenon of Quranic recital means that the text has traversed the centuries in an unbroken living sequence of devotion. It cannot, therefore, be handled as an antiquarian thing, nor as a historical document out of a distant past. The fact of hifz (Quranic Memorization) has made the Qur'an a present possession through all the lapse of Muslim time and given it a human currency in every generation never allowing its relegation to a bare authority for reference alone" reflects Kenneth Cragg (13)



Written Text of the Quran

Prophet's Time:

Prophet Muhammad (S) was very vigilant in preserving the Quran in the written form from the very beginning up until the last revelation. The Prophet himself was unlettered, did not knew how to read and write, therefore he called upon his numerous scribes to write the revelation for him. Complete Quran thus existed in written form in the lifetime of the Prophet.

Whenever a new revelation use to come to him, the Prophet would immediately call one of his scribes to write it down.

'Some people visited Zaid Ibn Thabit (one of the scribes of the Prophet) and asked him to tell them some stories about Allah's Messenger. He replied: "I was his (Prophet's) neighbor, and when the inspiration descended on him he sent for me and I went to him and wrote it down for him..." (14)

Narrated by al-Bara': There was revealed 'Not equal are those believers who sit (home) and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah' (4:95). The Prophet said: 'Call Zaid for me and let him bring the board, the ink pot and scapula bone.' Then he (Prophet) said: 'Write: Not equal are those believers...' (15)

Zaid is reported to have said: 'We use to compile the Qur'an from small scraps in the presence of the Apostle'. (16)

'The Prophet, while in Madinah, had about 48 scribes who use to write for him'. (17)

Abdullah Ibn 'Umar relates:... 'The Messenger of Allah (S) said: "Do not take the Qur'an on a journey with you, for I am afraid lest it should fall into the hands of the enemy"' (18)

During the Prophet's last pilgrimage, he gave a sermon in which he said: 'I have left with you something which if you will hold fast t it you will never fall into error - a plain indication, the Book of God (Quran) and the practice of his Prophet...' (19)

'Besides the official manuscripts of the Quran kept with the Prophet, many of his companions use to possess their own written copies of the revelation'. (20)

'A list of Companions of whom it is related that they had their own written collections included the following: Ibn Mas'ud, Ubay bin Ka'b, Ali, Ibn Abbas, Abu Musa, Hafsa, Anas bin Malik, Umar, Zaid bin Thabit, Ibn Al-Zubair, Abdullah ibn Amr, Aisha, Salim, Umm Salama, Ubaid bin Umar'. (21)

'The best known among these (Prophet's Scribes) are: Ibn Masud, Ubay bin Kab and Zaid bin Thabit'. (22)

'Aisha and Hafsa, the wives of the Prophet had their own scripts written after the Prophet had died'. (23)



Conclusion:

The complete Quran was written down in front of the Prophet by several of his scribes and the companions possess their own copies of the Quran in the Prophet's lifetime. However the written material of the Quran in the Prophet's possession were not bounded between the two covers in the form of a book, because the period of revelation of the Qur'an continued up until just a few days before the Prophet's death. The task of collecting the Qur'an as a book was therefore undertaken by Abu Bakr, the first successor to the Prophet.



Written Quran in First Generation:

At the battle of Yamama (633 CE), six months after the death of the Prophet, a number of Muslims, who had memorized the Quran were killed. Hence it was feared that unless a written official copy of the Quran were prepared, a large part of revelation might be lost.

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit al-Ansari, one of the scribes of the Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra (memorizers of the Quran, were killed). Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said: "Umar has come to me and said, the people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle) of Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be some casualties among the Qurra at other places, whereby a large part of the Quran may be lost, unless you collect it (in one manuscript, or book)...so Abu Bakr said to me (Zaid bin Thabit): You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness) and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. Therefore, look for the Qur'an and collect it (in one manuscript)'...So I started locating the Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leafstalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who know it by heart)..." (24)

Now, a committee was formed to under take the task of collecting the written Quranic material in the form of a book. The committee was headed by Zaid bin Thabit, the original scribe of the Prophet, who was also a memorizer of the complete Quran.

'...Zaid bin Thabit had committed the entire Quran to memory...' (25)

The compilers in this committee, in examining written material submitted to them, insisted on very stringent criteria as a safeguard against any errors.

1. The material must have been originally written down in the presence of the Prophet; nothing written down later on the basis of memory alone was to be accepted. (26) 2. The material must be confirmed by two witnesses, that is to say, by two trustworthy persons testifying that they themselves had heard the Prophet recite the passage in question. (27)

'The manuscript on which the Qur'an was collected, remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him, and then with Umar (the second successor), till Allah took him unto Him, and finally it remained with Hafsa, 'Umar's daughter (and wife of the Prophet)'. (28)

This copy of the Quran, prepared by the committee of competent companions of the Prophet (which included Memorizers of the Quran) was unanimous approved by the whole Muslim world. If they committee would have made a error even of a single alphabet in transcribing the Quran, the Qurra (memorizers of the Quran) which totaled in the tens of hundreds would have caught it right away and correct it. This is exactly where the neat check and balance system of preservation of the Quran comes into play, but which is lacking for any other scripture besides the Quran.


Official written copy by Uthman

The Quran was originally revealed in Quraishi dialect of Arabic. But to facilitate the people who speak other dialects, in their understanding and comprehension, Allah revealed the Quran finally in seven dialects of Arabic. During the period of Caliph Uthman (second successor to the Prophet) differences in reading the Quran among the various tribes became obvious, due to the various dialectical recitations. Dispute was arising, with each tribe calling its recitation as the correct one. This alarmed Uthman, who made a official copy in the Quraishi dialect, the dialect in which the Quran was revealed to the Prophet and was memorized by his companions. Thus this compilation by Uthman's Committee is not a different version of the Quran (like the Biblical versions) but the same original revelation given to the Prophet by One God, Allah.

Narrated Anas bin Malik: Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham (Syria) and the people of Iraq were waging war to conquer Armenia and Azherbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their differences in the recitation of the Quran, so he said to Uthman, 'O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and Christians did before'. So Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, 'Send us the manuscripts of the Quran so that we may compile the Quranic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you'. Hafsa sent it to Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Said bin Al-As and Abdur Rahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, 'In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Quran, then write it in their (Quraishi) tongue'. They did so, and when they had written many copies, Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied and ordered that all the other Quranic materials whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt..." (29)



Again a very stringent criteria was set up by this Committee to prevent any alteration of the Revelation.

1. The earlier recension (Original copy prepared by Abu Bakr) was to serve as the principal basis of the new one. (30) 2. Any doubt that might be raised as to the phrasing of a particular passage in the written text was to be dispelled by summoning persons known to have learned the passage in question from the Prophet. (31) 3. Uthman himself was to supervise the work of the Council. (32)

When the final recension was completed, Uthman sent a copy of it to each of the major cities of Makka, Damascus, Kufa, Basra and Madina.

The action of Uthman to burn the other copies besides the final recension, though obviously drastic, was for the betterment and harmony of the whole community and was unanimously approved by the Companions of the Prophet.

Zaid ibn Thabit is reported to have said: "I saw the Companions of Muhammad (going about) saying, 'By God, Uthman has done well! By God, Uthman has done well!" (33)

Another esteemed Companion Musab ibn Sad ibn Abi Waqqas said: "I saw the people assemble in large number at Uthman's burning of the prescribed copies (of the Quran), and they were all pleased with his action; not a one spoke out against him". (34)

Ali ibn Abu Talib, the cousin of the Prophet and the fourth successor to the Prophet commented: "If I were in command in place of Uthman, I would have done the same". (35)

Of the copies made by Uthman, two still exist to our day. One is in the city of Tashkent, (Uzbekistan) and the second one is in Istanbul (Turkey). Below is a brief account of both these copies:

1. The copy which Uthman sent to Madina was reportedly removed by the Turkish authorities to Istanbul, from where it came to Berlin during World War I. The Treaty of Versailles, which concluded World War I, contains the following clause:

'Article 246: Within six months from the coming into force of the present Treaty, Germany will restore to His Majesty, King of Hedjaz, the original Koran of Caliph Othman, which was removed from Madina by the Turkish authorities and is stated to have been presented to the ex-Emperor William II". (36)

'This manuscript then reached Istanbul, but not Madina (Where it now resides)'. (37)

2. The second copy in existence is kept in Tashkent, Uzbekistan. 'It may be the Imam (master) manuscript or one of the other copies made at the time of Uthman'. (38)

It Came to Samarkand in 890 Hijra (1485) and remained there till 1868. Then it was taken to St.Petersburg by the Russians in 1869. It remained there till 1917. A Russian orientalist gave a detailed description of it, saying that many pages were damaged and some were missing. A facsimile, some 50 copies, of this mushaf (copy) was produced by S.Pisareff in 1905. A copy was sent to the Ottoman Sultan 'Abdul Hamid, to the Shah of Iran, to the Amir of Bukhara, to Afghanistan, to Fas and some important Muslim personalities. One copy is now in the Columbia University Library (U.S.A.). (39)

'The Manuscript was afterwards returned to its former place and reached Tashkent in 1924, where it has remained since'. (40)


Conclusion:

'Two of the copies of the Qur'an which were originally prepared in the time of Caliph Uthman, are still available to us today and their text and arrangement can be compared, by anyone who cares to do, with any other copy of the Quran, be it in print or handwritten, from any place or period of time. They will be found identical'. (41)

It can now be proclaimed, through the evidences provided above, with full conviction and certainty that the Prophet memorized the entire Quran, had it written down in front of him through his scribes, many of his companions memorized the entire revelation and in turn possess their own private copies for recitation and contemplation. This process of dual preservation of the Quran in written and in the memory was carried in each subsequent generation till our time, without any deletion, interpolation or corruption of this Divine Book.

Sir Williams Muir states, " There is otherwise every security, internal and external, that we possess the text which Muhammad himself gave forth and used". (42)

Sir William Muir continues, "There is probably no other book in the world which has remained twelve centuries (now fourteen) with so pure a text". (43)

This divine protection provided to the Quran, the Last Reveled Guide to Humanity, is proclaimed by One God in the Quran:

We* (Allah) have, without doubt, send down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption)' (Quran - Chapter 15, Verse 9). *('We' is the plural of Majesty, and not the Christian plural of trinity)

Compare this divine and historical preservation of the Quran with any literature, be it religious or secular and it becomes evident that none possess similar miraculous protection. And as states earlier, a belief is as authentic as the authenticity of its scripture. And if any scripture is not preserved, how can we be certain that the belief arising out of this scripture is divine or man made, and if we are not sure about the belief itself, then our salvation in the hereafter would be jeopardized. Thus this above evidence for the protection of the Quran from any corruption is a strong hint about its divine origin. We request all open hearted persons to read, understand and live the Quran, the 'Manual for Mankind'.


References:

1. (1) (Michael Zwettler, The Oral Tradition of Classical Arabic Poetry, p.14. Ohio State Press: 1978
2. (Transmitted by Ibn Abbas, collected in Sahih Al-Bukhari, 6.519, translated by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan)
3. (Transmitted by Abu Hurayrah, collected in Sahih Al-Bukhari, 6.520, translated by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan)
4. (Transmitted by Uthman bin Affan, collected in Sahih Bukhari, 6.546, translated by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan).
5. (Jalal al-Din Suyuti, 'Al-Itqan fi-ulum al-Quran, Vol. I p.124)
6. (Ibn Hisham: Sira al-nabi, Cairo, n.d., Vol.I, p.206).
7. (Bukhari, 6.106)
8. (Al-Bukhari, 6.201)
9. ( Labib as-Said, the Recited Koran, Translated by Bernard Weiss, M.A.Rauf, and Morroe Berger, The Darwon Press, Princton, New Jersey, 1975, pg.58).
10. ((Ibn al Jazari, Kitab al-Nash fi al-Qir'at al-Ashr, (Cairo al-Halabi, n.d._ vol. 2, p. 254, also Ahmad Makki al-Ansari, al-Difa' An al-Qur'an. (Cairo, Dar al-Ma'arif, 1973 C.E.), part I, p.120)
11. (Labib as-Said, the Recited Koran, Translated by Bernard Weiss, M.A.Rauf, and Morroe Berger, The Darwon Press, Princeton, New Jersey, 1975, pg.59)
12. (John Burton, An Introduction to the Hadith, p.27. Edinburgh University Press: 1994)
13. (Kenneth Cragg, The Mind of the Qur'an, p.26. George Allah & Unwin: 1973)
14. (Tirmidhi, Mishkat al-Masabih, No. 5823)
15. (Bukhari, 6.512)
16. (Suyuti, Itqan, I, p.99)
17. (M.M.Azami, Kuttab al-Nabi,Beirut, 1974)
18. (Muslim, III, NO. 4606, also 4607, 4608; Bukhari, 4.233)
19. (Ibn Hisham, Sira al-nabi, p.651).
20. (Suyuti, Itqan, I, p.62).
21. (Ibn Abi Dawud: Masahif, p.14)
22. (Bayard Dodge: The fihrist of al-Nadim: A Tenth Century Survey of Muslim Culture, New York, 1970, pp.53-63)
23. (Muwatta Imam Malik, Lahore, 1980, no.307, 308, translation by M. Rahimuddin).
24. ((Bukhari 6.201)
25. (Labib as-Said, The Recited Koran, translated by Bernard Weiss, et al. 1975, p.21.
26. (Ibn Hajar, Fath, Vol. IX, p.10)
27. (ibid., p.11)
28. (Bukhari, 6.201)
29. (Bukhari, 6.510)
30. (Ibn Hajar, Bath, IX, p. 15)
31. (Suyuti, Itqan, Vol.I, p.59)
32. ((ibid., p.59).
33. (Naysaburi, al-,Nizam al-Din al-Hasan ibn Muhammad, Ghara'ib al-Quran wa-ragha'ib al-furqan. 4 vols. To date. Cairo, 1962).
34. ((Ibn Abi Dawud, p.12)
35. Zarkashi, al-, Badr al-Din, Al-Burhan fi-ulum al-Quran, Cairo, 1957, Vol. I, p. 240.
36. (Fred L. Israel, Major Peace Treaties of Modern History, New York, Chelsea House Pub., Vol. II, p. 1418 )
37. (Makhdum, op.cit., 1938, p.19).
38. (Ahmad Von Denffer, Ulum Al-Qur'an, Islamic Foundation, revised ed., 1994, p.63)
39. (The Muslim World, Vol.30(1940), pp. 357-8.)
40. (Ahmad von Denffer, Ulum Al-Quran, Islamic Foundation, revised Ed., 1994, p.63).
41. (ibid., p,64)
42. (Sir Williams Muir, Life of Mohamet, Vol.I. Introduction)
43. (ibid.)


He said that like blind faith, tell him that we believe everything from hide. We can't see Allah, but we believe, we can't see Frishta, But we believe, We didn't see with our eyes that Allah sent down the Quran, but we believe Allah and Frishta so we also believe this.

and here are the proof of HOly Quran:

All praise of for Allah (SWT), and may peace and blessings be upon his final messenger, Muhammad.

The Prophet of Allah (saw), blessed in his creation, exhalted in character, and the best of all mankind was sent to the people as a mercy, a guide and a warner. He like the previous messengers, came with a teaching and a way of life that was pure and true, and that would lead those who followed it to success in this life, and in the hereafter. In fact, he came to affirm those noble prophets and messengers who came before him, and their belief in the Oneness of Allah (swt), and to abrogate, update and complete their messages to mankind.

With Muhammad (saw), as with all the previous prophets, many people would disbelieve in them, and deny the varacity of their claims. Allah (swt) sent as a proof against these false claims, clear ayat (signs) with his messengers, that would confirm the truth of what they conveyed. Thus, only those who were arrogant, ungrateful or insincere could deny.

To Musa (as), who brought the way of al-Islam to bani Israel and invited the Fir’aun (Pharoah), Allah (swt) gave among other things the staff, with miraculous powers of turning into a snake, causing water to flow from the rock, and splitting the sea into two.

“(Pharoah) said, ‘If indeed thou hast come with a sign, show it forth – if thou telleth the truth. Then (Moses) threw his rod, and behold! It was a serpent plain for all to see.” TMQ 7:106-7

These were clear proofs, and the first to believe were the very magicians whom Fir’aun had commissioned to challenge Musa (as).

“But the sorcerers fell down prostrate in adoration. Saying we believe in the Lord of the worlds (Rabbil ‘Aalamin)” TMQ 7:118-9

Likewise, Allah (swt) gave the porphet Isa (as), the ability to speak while yet a baby, and to return the dead to life. These gave clear evidence to the people of the time, that indeed, Isa (as) was an emissary from Allah (swt).

The Holy prophet Muhammad (saw), the master of the prophets, was similar to his predecessors. For he too, was denied by the people of Quraysh, such as Abu Lahab, Abu Jahl, and al-Waleed ibn al-Mughaira. And he too was sent with miracles that confirmed his case beyond all doubt.

However, the Prophethood of Muhammad (saw) was different from that of his predecessors, and so was the nature of the main miracle that Allah (swt) gave to him. For Muhammad (saw) was the final prophet for all mankind to come – his message was perfect and complete. Accordingly, his miracle was not transitory, like those of Musa (as)and Isa (as), which could only be believed in by those who directly saw them. For today, no Chirstian can bring the dead man brought to life, and no Jew can demonstrate the staff as a proof for their belief. Rather, we as Muslims believe in these miracles, because they are narrated in the Holy Book of Allah (swt) - al-Qur'an, which is itself the miracle that proves for all mankind the truth of the message of Islam.

For Allah (swt) says,

“And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Surah like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (if there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true. But if ye cannot – and of a surety ye cannot – then fear the fire whose fuel is men and stones, which is prepared for those who reject faith.” TMQ 2:23-4

In this way, the proof of Islam is complete for all time to come, for it lies in the Book itself. The challenge has been made clear, that if anyone denies that the Qur’an is true, all they have to do is produce one Surah (chapter) which is comparable in style (the shortest sized of which being Surat al-Kawthar, 3 lines long). For 1400 years, no-one has ever done this.

The analogy is this : there are clear differences in the English language between poetry and prose. The poetry style is characterised by certain principles of rhythm, rhyme and grammar, which lead to a dilution of clarity, and make it prone to differing interpretation. The prose style, however, has different principles that sacrifice these attributes, but convey clearer meaning. One can clearly tell the difference between the two styles.

The Qur’an, however, in Arabic language, combines all elements – one cannot tell if it is poetry or prose. This miracle of language is beyond the minds of men, which is proven by the fact that there is no other similar text, even of the smallest size in existence on the face of the earth.

Further, as compared to any prose or poetry that is existent, the Quran is far superior in its depth, eloquence and character. Indeed, throughout the ages, the Quran has been used as the measure and reference against which all works of Arabic literature have been guaged.

This challenge of the Qur’an stands just as well now, as it did at the time of the Prophet (saw). In those days when the mastery of Arabic language was at its peak, it was enough for the Arabs to simply hear the recitation of the Qur’an, and they would embrace Islam, as was the case with Umar ibn al-Khattab, Tufail ad-Dawsi and others. Even the disbelievers of the Quraysh acknowledged that this was an unnatural phenomenon.

In this way, we see that the proof of the Quran, which is the foundation of the deen of Islam, stands as a challenge for all mankind. The enemies of Islam, which these days number many, are well versed in the knowledge of our deen. But, they resort to twisting and manipulation of the Islamic teachings, to discredit them, or to physically suppressing and oppressing Muslims to subjugate them. Have these disbelievers never come across the challenge of the Qur’an? Of course they have, but they try to ignore it and cover it up, as they cannot match it! For if indeed they were able to, they would have publicised it throughout the world, instead of spending so much time and energy in suppressing Islam in other ways.

We as Muslims, should we well versed with the Qur’an and the wonders contained therein. Only when we study it and acknowledge its truth with full proof, will we be able to really use it as a basis for our lives and the societies in which we live.


take care
 
Ah? The Modern Religion?

right here you go bro prim3 here is the proof

Interesting use of the word proof.

the Qur'an was intended as a recited text, and was not compiled as a single volume during the life of the Prophet. The establishment of the canonical text is attributed to the 3d caliph, Uthman, who appointed a committee (651–52) to reconcile the conflicting versions then available, under the direction of Zaid ibn Thabit, one of the Prophet's scribes.

Actually there are at least two stories regarding the establishment of a canonical text. But Muslims tend to assume they are both true.

Here are the proof of Quran has sent down by Allah:

There are hundreds of religions flourishing around the world: Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Bahaism, Babism, Zoroastrianism, Mormonism, Jehovas Witnesses, Jainism, Confucianism etc. And each of these religions claim that their scripture is preserved from the day it was revealed (written) until our time. A religious belief is as authentic as the authenticity of the scripture it follows. And for any scripture to be labeled as authentically preserved it should follow some concrete and rational criteria.

Actually this is a claim of very few of those religions. The Quran plays a unique role in Islam, compared to other religions, because it has so little else going for it - no on-going Revelation, no body in touch with the Divine.

Nor does it follow that a religion is as authentic as the scripture it follows. Religions all have different ways of determining legitimacy and authenticity. Islam choose this particular form of authenticity but I can't think of a single other religion, offhand, that does likewise.

Imagine this scenario:

A professor gives a three hour lecture to his students. Imagine still that none of the students memorized this speech of the professor or wrote it down. Now forty years after that speech, if these same students decided to replicate professor's complete speech word for word, would they be able to do it? Obviously not. Because the only two modes of preservation historically is through writing and memory.

This of course refers to students and professor in a modern society where memory is not well developed. Tell someone brought up to memorize poetry that something important will be said to him and the chances he would remember it would be quite high.

Lets analyze the claim of the preservation of the Quran...

Memorization

'In the ancient times, when writing was scarcely used, memory and oral transmission was exercised and strengthened to a degree now almost unknown' relates Michael Zwettler.(1)

See the claim about the professor and student above.

Prophet Muhammad (S): The First Memorizer

Prophet Muhammad (S) miraculously memorized each revelation and used to proclaim it to his Companions. Angel Gabriel used to refresh the Quranic memory of the Prophet each year.

Really? I think there is some evidence that Muhammed did not have such a good memory but I am happy to pass over it.

Prophet's Companions: The First Generation Memorizers

'Some of the companions who memorized the Quran were: 'Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, Ibn Masud, Abu Huraira, Abdullah bin Abbas, Abdullah bin Amr bin al-As, Aisha, Hafsa, and Umm Salama'. (5)

What is the evidence that the Quran they recited was the same as the Quran we know today?

Omar said that the Quran used to contain a verse on stoning adulterers. I am told that that verse was abrogated, but the text is not there any more. Who made the decision not to include it in the Quran?

Second Generation Memorizers:

"...Quranic schools were set up everywhere. As an example to illustrate this I may refer to a great Muslim scholar, of the second Muslim generation, Ibn 'Amir, who was the judge of Damascus under the Caliph Umar Ibn 'Abd Al-Aziz. It is reported that in his school for teaching the Quran there were 400 disciples to teach in his absence". (10)

So we are not only passed the Rashidun but up to the Eighth Umayyad Caliph? That is quite a jump in time. No one in between?

Quran is the only book, religious or secular, on the face of this planet that has been completely memorized by millions. These memorizers range from ages 6 and up, both Arabic and non-Arabic speakers, blacks, whites, Orientals, poor and wealthy.

Which is proof of nothing except that people will make their boys suffer a lot in the search for religious merit.

Thus the process of memorization was continuous , from Prophet

Muhammad's (S) time to ours with an unbroken chain.

How do you know?

Written Text of the Quran

Prophet's Time:

Prophet Muhammad (S) was very vigilant in preserving the Quran in the written form from the very beginning up until the last revelation. The Prophet himself was unlettered, did not knew how to read and write, therefore he called upon his numerous scribes to write the revelation for him. Complete Quran thus existed in written form in the lifetime of the Prophet.

It is the usual claim and often stated belief of Muslims that Muhammed was illiterate. May I ask what the evidence is for that?

Whenever a new revelation use to come to him, the Prophet would immediately call one of his scribes to write it down.

But that must have varied through-out his career. At the start who would have worked as his scribe?

'Besides the official manuscripts of the Quran kept with the Prophet, many of his companions use to possess their own written copies of the revelation'. (20)

But not one of them had a full and complete version while he was still alive did they? Don't you find this a little odd? If there were scribes and there were chances available, why did no one take a full copy while Muhammed was alive to consult?

Conclusion:

The complete Quran was written down in front of the Prophet by several of his scribes and the companions possess their own copies of the Quran in the Prophet's lifetime.

How do you jump from scraps being written down to a complete copy being written down? What is the evidence that any of the companions possessed a complete copy - and if so why did Abu Bakr and Umar and Uthman need to collect a new version by setting up a committeee to look into it? Why didn't they just ask Aisha for her copy?

Also the Companions differed, in even Muhammed's lifetime on how to recite the Quran. Why not mention that?

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 514:

Narrated 'Umar bin Al-Khattab:

I heard Hisham bin Hakim reciting Surat Al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle and I listened to his recitation and noticed that he recited in several different ways which Allah's Apostle had not taught me. I was about to jump over him during his prayer, but I controlled my temper, and when he had completed his prayer, I put his upper garment around his neck and seized him by it and said, "Who taught you this Sura which I heard you reciting?" He replied, "Allah's Apostle taught it to me." I said, "You have told a lie, for Allah's Apostle has taught it to me in a different way from yours." So I dragged him to Allah's Apostle and said (to Allah's Apostle),

"I heard this person reciting Surat Al-Furqan in a way which you haven't taught me!" On that Allah's Apostle said, "Release him, (O 'Umar!) Recite, O Hisham!" Then he recited in the same way as I heard him reciting. Then Allah's Apostle said, "It was revealed in this way," and added, "Recite, O 'Umar!" I recited it as he had taught me. Allah's Apostle then said, "It was revealed in this way. This Qur'an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever (way) is easier for you (or read as much of it as may be easy for you)."​

Written Quran in First Generation:

At the battle of Yamama (633 CE), six months after the death of the Prophet, a number of Muslims, who had memorized the Quran were killed. Hence it was feared that unless a written official copy of the Quran were prepared, a large part of revelation might be lost.

So much for the benefits of oral memory! What were so many reciters, who must have been getting on a bit, doing at this one battle?

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 201:

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari:

who was one of those who used to write the Divine Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra' were killed). 'Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said, 'Umar has come to me and said, The people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be more casualties among the Qurra' (those who know the Qur'an by heart) at other battle-fields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost, unless you collect it. And I am of the opinion that you should collect the Qur'an." Abu Bakr added, "I said to 'Umar, 'How can I do something which Allah's Apostle has not done?' 'Umar said (to me), 'By Allah, it is (really) a good thing.' So 'Umar kept on pressing, trying to persuade me to accept his proposal, till Allah opened my bosom for it and I had the same opinion as 'Umar." (Zaid bin Thabit added:) Umar was sitting with him (Abu Bakr) and was not speaking. me). "You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness): and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. Therefore, look for the Qur'an and collect it (in one manuscript). " By Allah, if he (Abu Bakr) had ordered me to shift one of the mountains (from its place) it would not have been harder for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Qur'an. I said to both of them, "How dare you do a thing which the Prophet has not done?" Abu Bakr said, "By Allah, it is (really) a good thing. So I kept on arguing with him about it till Allah opened my bosom for that which He had opened the bosoms of Abu Bakr and Umar. So I started locating Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leaf-stalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart). I found with Khuzaima two Verses of Surat-at-Tauba which I had not found with anybody else, (and they were):--

"Verily there has come to you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty He (Muhammad) is ardently anxious over you (to be rightly guided)" (9.128)

The manuscript on which the Quran was collected, remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him, and then with 'Umar till Allah took him unto Him, and finally it remained with Hafsa, Umar's daughter.

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 510:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 511:

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:

Abu Bakr sent for me and said, "You used to write the Divine Revelations for Allah's Apostle : So you should search for (the Qur'an and collect) it." I started searching for the Qur'an till I found the last two Verses of Surat At-Tauba with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari and I could not find these Verses with anybody other than him. (They were):

'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty ...' (9.128-129)​

Incidentally this proves that Muhammed never collected the Quran in his lifetime, and neither did any of his compansions, with the possible exception of Khuzaima, either.

Now, a committee was formed to under take the task of collecting the written Quranic material in the form of a book. The committee was headed by Zaid bin Thabit, the original scribe of the Prophet, who was also a memorizer of the complete Quran.

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 507:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

(The Caliph 'Uthman ordered Zaid bin Thabit, Said bin Al-As, 'Abdullah bin Az-Zubair and 'Abdur-Rahman bin Al-Harith bin Hisham to write the Quran in the form of a book (Mushafs) and said to them. "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit (Al-Ansari) regarding any dialectic Arabic utterance of the Quran, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, for the Quran was revealed in this dialect." So they did it.​

Yes that is odd. Why are these people, and these people in particular, chosen? Why not Aisha? Why not Abu Huraira who had a phenomenal memory for what Muhammed said?

Come to think of it, aren't not only Zaid but all these men Ansari?

And lastly isn't it interesting that so much change had happened in Arabic that by the time they came to write it down there was a question about what the words meant?

The compilers in this committee, in examining written material submitted to them, insisted on very stringent criteria as a safeguard against any errors.

1. The material must have been originally written down in the presence of the Prophet; nothing written down later on the basis of memory alone was to be accepted. (26) 2. The material must be confirmed by two witnesses, that is to say, by two trustworthy persons testifying that they themselves had heard the Prophet recite the passage in question.

What is the evidence for this? And sure it would suggest that some parts got cut that should have been in?

'The manuscript on which the Qur'an was collected, remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him, and then with Umar (the second successor), till Allah took him unto Him, and finally it remained with Hafsa, 'Umar's daughter (and wife of the Prophet)'.

And oddly enough these three people kept quiet about having it. Not one of them lifted a finger to get the news out and prevent bad copies floating around. Why?

This copy of the Quran, prepared by the committee of competent companions of the Prophet (which included Memorizers of the Quran) was unanimous approved by the whole Muslim world.

I do not doubt they were competent, but were they the most competent? Why noone of any importance? Why these obscure people?

And it was not unanimously approved - some people in Iraq especially are said to have resented it. How true that is I do not know.

If they committee would have made a error even of a single alphabet in transcribing the Quran, the Qurra (memorizers of the Quran) which totaled in the tens of hundreds would have caught it right away and correct it.

But this contradicts the claim that the Qurra were an endangered species - if there were thousands of them, why worry about their numbers?

Official written copy by Uthman

The Quran was originally revealed in Quraishi dialect of Arabic.

Or more accurately Zaid was told that it was in Qurayshi dialect.

They did so, and when they had written many copies, Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied and ordered that all the other Quranic materials whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt..."

So basically the Muslim world has one Quran because a single government imposed a single version and had all other materials that might be called Quranic, burnt?

The action of Uthman to burn the other copies besides the final recension, though obviously drastic, was for the betterment and harmony of the whole community and was unanimously approved by the Companions of the Prophet.

And it has worked - no one can say there was any other version because any materials to work on have been destroyed.

Ali ibn Abu Talib, the cousin of the Prophet and the fourth successor to the Prophet commented: "If I were in command in place of Uthman, I would have done the same".

Although you can see the vigour with which the Government chased down any other versions because they harrassed Ali - Muhammed's son-in-law!

Volume 9, Book 83, Number 50:

Narrated Abu Juhaifa:

I asked 'Ali "Do you have anything Divine literature besides what is in the Qur'an?" Or, as Uyaina once said, "Apart from what the people have?" 'Ali said, "By Him Who made the grain split (germinate) and created the soul, we have nothing except what is in the Quran and the ability (gift) of understanding Allah's Book which He may endow a man, with and what is written in this sheet of paper." I asked, "What is on this paper?" He replied, "The legal regulations of Diya (Blood-money) and the (ransom for) releasing of the captives, and the judgment that no Muslim should be killed in Qisas (equality in punishment) for killing a Kafir (disbeliever)."​

Of the copies made by Uthman, two still exist to our day. One is in the city of Tashkent, (Uzbekistan) and the second one is in Istanbul (Turkey).

No scholar I know of thinks they are Uthamic copies.

Two of the copies of the Qur'an which were originally prepared in the time of Caliph Uthman, are still available to us today and their text and arrangement can be compared, by anyone who cares to do, with any other copy of the Quran, be it in print or handwritten, from any place or period of time. They will be found identical'.

There is no evidence they are Uthmanic and they are partial so they do not tell us much. But I am happy to grant all Qurans are the same.
 
bro that was the proof i gave bro prim3 and if you don't believe that then i feel soory for you!

tk/cr
 
Peace.

Where does it say that in the Bible?.

I didn't want to do this but since Heigou is asking for a verse by verse display here we go.

Terror in the Bible by a number of Prophets!
http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/terrorinthebible.htm

Pregnant women will be ripped open!
Hosea 13:16 (New Living Translation) - The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords."

Hosea 13:16 (King James) Samaria will bear her guilt because she has rebelled against her God.
They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.

The NT punishes children with death!
Revelation 2:22-23 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Ezekiel 23:47 (King James Version)
47: And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire

Hosea 2:4 And I will not have mercy upon her children; for they be the children of whoredoms

Terrorism: "kill all the boys and non-virgin women"!
http://www.answering-christianity.com/age3.htm too long. please read carefully.

Another killing all men, women, children and animals by Moses!
Here is how Deuteronomy 20:13-14 read:

Deuteronomy 20:13-20
13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword (even the unarmed ones): 14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.
16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them;
In the following verses we see the following:

1- All men, including the unarmed ones, were to be executed (Deuteronomy 20:13).

2- All women and children were to be taken as spoils of war (Deuteronomy 20:14).

3- For the others, kill and destroy every creature that is breathing - that is all men, women, children and animals (Deuteronomy 20:16-17)

Moses was a murderer before he became a Prophet!

Exodus 2

14 The man said, "Who made you ruler and judge over us? Are you thinking of killing me as you killed the Egyptian?" Then Moses was afraid and thought, "What I did must have become known."

Numbers 25

17 "Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them,


1 Kings 21

21 'I am going to bring disaster on you. I will consume your descendants and cut off from Ahab every last male in Israel-slave or free.

2 Kings 9

8 The whole house of Ahab will perish. I will cut off from Ahab every last male in Israel-slave or free

Killing the Righteous before the wicked:
Ezekiel 21
3 and say to her: 'This is what the LORD says: I am against you. I will draw my sword from its scabbard and cut off from you both the righteous and the wicked.


42 innocent children were killed using Wild Bears by Prophet Elisha!

2 Kings 2
23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!"
24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD . Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths

Do you want me to continue Heigou??

I'm sorry to say, I find it to be absolutely ridiculous that the bible feeds us all kinds of lies and contradictions about "love your enemy", and yet, we see mass slaughter of suckling infants and innocent boys, girls, unarmed men, women (old and young), and innocent domestic farm animals by the tens of thousands! It is clear that the inconsistent man-altered, man-corrupted and morally corrupt bible is nothing but a false book, and can not be a Divine and Perfect Holy Book!

Further more, Allah Almighty Said in the Noble Quran:

"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (The Noble Quran, 5:32)"

Yet, we see mass slaughters and even rape of 3-year old girls as seen in the verses below in the man-altered, man-fabricated and man-corrupted bible.

Based on this Noble Verse, I can safely conclude, as a Muslim, that the slaughtering stories of innocent people in the corrupted bible were nothing but man-made lies and laws that were put in the Mouth of Allah Almighty:


Here is the problem - you are using a Hate Site. This site contains nothing of any value about Christianity or Judaism and is much worse than the equivalent Christian one. None of these claims, or few of them, is remotely true and they are, in fact, a pack of lies. Try to find any of them actually in the Bible.

Make sure you know what you are saying before you speak. Every single verse i stated up there is in the Bible. Everything in that website is true and proven. Until you prove me wrong, it's best you stay qiuet. Go one search the site. Find anything false in it, and come back to prove so.

I will answer the rest later.

Peace out.
 
Umm, how many places does the Quran attribute violence to God? I am sorry but from what I can see violence is one of the attributes of God. You can insist that prophets have to be perfect, but that is neither the Jewish or the Christian tradition. Why do you think they have to be?

(The Noble Quran, 2:77-78)"

"Know they not Allah Knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book (i.e., the Bible), but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' To traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

Not a single verse in the Noble Quran does it vommand for Muslims innocent people. I challenge you Heigou to find one, JUST ONE, Noble Verse from the Noble Quran that allows killing of innocent people.

I wrote:
Why would any messenger or prophet of God commit such attrocious sins?

and you answered:
Because in this case they are not, a Muslim had lied and lied and lied again.

Huh? What or who the hell are you refering to?? Mohammed? Please grow up and give me the proof before you claim such nonsense.


I stated:
The only person in this thread brother who mentioned that the bible cannot be corrupted is Nicole. Her reason was that God wouldn't allow it. We have proven her wrong.
Muslims believe that the Quran is the final word of God. No Christian,Jew,Athiest,Agnostic,Hinduist,Buddhist have proven us wrong


then you answered:
Really? How have you proved him wrong? Self-evidently if you're still a Muslim no one has come up with proof to your statisfaction, but then I doubt that Nicola is going to be convinced to become a Muslim either.

First of all Nicola is a girl so it's a 'her' not a 'him'. Secondly, only proving the bible was unfortunately corrupted, isn't going to be enough for a person to accept a religion. A person needs learn and understand it. Then she or he can accept a certain faith.

If you have are doubting people accepting the Islamic faith, then I'm sure you won't mind explaining why it is the fastest growing religion.


To be continued..

Peace out.
 
I didn't want to do this but since Heigou is asking for a verse by verse display here we go.

Well thank you for taking the time.

Terror in the Bible by a number of Prophets!

Pregnant women will be ripped open!
Hosea 13:16 (New Living Translation) - The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords."

But it is, of course, not any prophets that are doing that. God is simply warning the Jews that if they do not return to obedience He will not protect them against the Assyrians any more. At no time do any Prophets of Islam or Judaism rip the bellies of pregnant women.

The NT punishes children with death!
Revelation 2:22-23 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

You are assuming that because the word used here is "children" it means, well, children, but look at the context

[18] And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
[19] I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
[20] Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
[21] And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
[22] Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
[23] And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.​

The reference is to metaphorical children of Jezebel - the false Church, the Devil in fact, and so refers to the believers of the Anti-Christ. Jezebel does not, of course, have any actual children. And so there are none for any prophets to kill.

Ezekiel 23:47 (King James Version)
47: And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire

Again you need full context,

[43] Then said I unto her that was old in adulteries, Will they now commit whoredoms with her, and she with them?
[44] Yet they went in unto her, as they go in unto a woman that playeth the harlot: so went they in unto Aholah and unto Aholibah, the lewd women.
[45] And the righteous men, they shall judge them after the manner of adulteresses, and after the manner of women that shed blood; because they are adulteresses, and blood is in their hands.
[46] For thus saith the Lord GOD; I will bring up a company upon them, and will give them to be removed and spoiled.
[47] And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire.​

I assume the context here is that the Jewish people have yet again gone off the rails and worshiped idols and God intends to punish them. God may cause someone to invade and kill, but not a prophet involved in sight. Or it may just be metaphorical. In any event no prophet does this.

Hosea 2:4 And I will not have mercy upon her children; for they be the children of whoredoms

Context, yet again

[1] Say ye unto your brethren, Ammi; and to your sisters, Ru-hamah.
[2] Plead with your mother, plead: for she is not my wife, neither am I her husband: let her therefore put away her whoredoms out of her sight, and her adulteries from between her breasts;
[3] Lest I strip her naked, and set her as in the day that she was born, and make her as a wilderness, and set her like a dry land, and slay her with thirst.
[4] And I will not have mercy upon her children; for they be the children of whoredoms.​

God is talking about the Jewish people as a whole who have "gone whoring" after pagan Gods. And "her children" clearly refers to the people of Israel. And it is a promise if they do not mend their ways (as He does have mercy on them in the end). Not a prophet in sight.

Deuteronomy 20:13-20
13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword (even the unarmed ones):
14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.
16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them;
In the following verses we see the following:

1- All men, including the unarmed ones, were to be executed (Deuteronomy 20:13).
2- All women and children were to be taken as spoils of war (Deuteronomy 20:14).
3- For the others, kill and destroy every creature that is breathing - that is all men, women, children and animals (Deuteronomy 20:16-17)
Moses was a murderer before he became a Prophet!

Exactly how is Moses a murderer? And isn't that blasphemous in Islam too?

What you have ignored is the first passage

[10] When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.
[11] And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.
[12] And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:​

So offer peace first and take tribute if they surrender. If not then you kill them all. This is not entirely unknown in Islam. I have no problem with that, but of course Moses does not do it. God commands it but Moses, as every child knows, dies within sight of the Holy Land. He kills no one.

Exodus 2

14 The man said, "Who made you ruler and judge over us? Are you thinking of killing me as you killed the Egyptian?" Then Moses was afraid and thought, "What I did must have become known."

Again missed context

[11] And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren.
[12] And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand.

[13] And when he went out the second day, behold, two men of the Hebrews strove together: and he said to him that did the wrong, Wherefore smitest thou thy fellow?
[14] And he said, Who made thee a prince and a judge over us? intendest thou to kill me, as thou killedst the Egyptian? And Moses feared, and said, Surely this thing is known.​

So he killed a man in semi-self-defence. Is that wrong? Does that make him a murderer? Is there any sin here at all? What is the penalty is Islam for blasphemy against Moses?

Numbers 25

17 "Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them,

Well the KJV is "[16] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, [17] Vex the Midianites, and smite them:" Near enough. What is your point?

1 Kings 21

21 'I am going to bring disaster on you. I will consume your descendants and cut off from Ahab every last male in Israel-slave or free

Hard to find which verse you mean. But a specific punishment to Ahab who worshipped pagan gods and had a man killed to take his land. Not a prophet in sight.

2 Kings 9

8 The whole house of Ahab will perish. I will cut off from Ahab every last male in Israel-slave or free

And yet two of his sons and one of his son-in-laws ruled after him.

Killing the Righteous before the wicked:
Ezekiel 21
3 and say to her: 'This is what the LORD says: I am against you. I will draw my sword from its scabbard and cut off from you both the righteous and the wicked.

Sorry but where does that say the righteous will be killed before the wicked? God says He is very angry and will punish. So what? Where are these murdering prophets?

2 Kings 2
23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!"
24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD . Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths

Which goes to prove you should not make fun of the Prophet Elisha. Rather like the Danish cartoons really.

Do you want me to continue Heigou??

Please do. The Bible is brutal enough I do not know why O Abdullah needs to lie about it.

I'm sorry to say, I find it to be absolutely ridiculous that the bible feeds us all kinds of lies and contradictions about "love your enemy", and yet, we see mass slaughter of suckling infants and innocent boys, girls, unarmed men, women (old and young), and innocent domestic farm animals by the tens of thousands! It is clear that the inconsistent man-altered, man-corrupted and morally corrupt bible is nothing but a false book, and can not be a Divine and Perfect Holy Book!

Who says it is by the tens of thousands? Besides according to Christians Jesus came to abrogate those verses.

Yet, we see mass slaughters and even rape of 3-year old girls as seen in the verses below in the man-altered, man-fabricated and man-corrupted bible.

I agree with the man-altered and man-fabricated and man-corrupted bits but the person who did that is your Palestinian brother, not any Jews and not any Christians.

Based on this Noble Verse, I can safely conclude, as a Muslim, that the slaughtering stories of innocent people in the corrupted bible were nothing but man-made lies and laws that were put in the Mouth of Allah Almighty:

Actually I agree with you - tell your Brother to stop it.

Make sure you know what you are saying before you speak. Every single verse i stated up there is in the Bible. Everything in that website is true and proven. Until you prove me wrong, it's best you stay qiuet. Go one search the site. Find anything false in it, and come back to prove so.

Virtually nothing on that website is true and proven. Raping three year olds is a perfect example. Find me anything in the Bible that supports that.

I will answer the rest later.

I look forward to it. And perhaps you might give me a digression on how Islam always treats other religions with respect?
 
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