how christian women view muslim women

[Lush]

LOL

I just got a negative rep from cool_jannah for stating the obvious:

If he's so worried about other men looking at his future wife, how come he's not worried about other women checking him out?

Guess female agency is a non-issue to some he-man types... Not worried about other women checking you out, eh? Think it's "unreasonable"? Welcome to my world...

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Really?

While one cannot paint all societies with the same brush, it is true that women in pre-islamic times were generally treated very poorly. Please see:
http://al-ibaanah.com/articles.php?ArtID=66
http://www.load-islam.com/C/Women/The_Status_of_Women_in_Islam/
http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/essays/herstory.html
http://www.islamicvoice.com/March20...hp?PHPSESSID=9be515f9fbda783b4256b107f8bfaa9d

The pagan arabs were particularly oppressive towards their daughters. This is why we find so many ahadith protecting the rights of daughters in Islam. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh said:
Whoever cares for three daugthers, and gives them a good upbringing, marries them (to good husbands) and treats them well, he/she will enter paradise. (Sunan Abi Dawud)

And he said:
Whoever had a daughter born to him, and he did not humiliate her, and he did not prefer his son over her, Allah will admit him/her to Paradise because of her. (Mustadarak Al-Haakim)

So the Prophet Muhammad pbuh had to forbid humiliating daughters and prefering one's sns over them because these were common practices amongst the arab tribes. And we haven't even begun to talk about female infanticide amongst the pre-islamic arabs.

This is the same society that produce Khadija?

Khadija inherited the business after her father's death, but her tribe's practice in this regard was certainly not the norm amongst the arabs.

Can you name a Muslim woman who had a career like Khadija's?

Khadija herself was a Muslim woman and none other than the wife of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and there were many others like her. There was a prominent trader named Qaila who sought the Prophet's advice in her business (Ibn Sa'd, Tabaqat, vol. 8, p. 228). The wife of Abdullah ibn Mas'ood is another example - One day, she went to the Prophet and said: "I am a craftswoman; I make things and sell them. But my husband and children have no means of liveihood." She then enquired whether she could spend her earnings on them. The Prophet said, "Yes; you will get a reward for this." (Al-Isbah fi taymiz al-Sahabah, vol. 4, p. 310). Asma bint Makhrama had a business in perfumery. (Ibn Sad, Tabaqat, vol. 8, p. 220). And the Prophet's wife Sauda bint Zama'ah had a profession in the tanning of skins (Bukhari). Women's involvement in the marketplace was also comon, such as the case of Amra bint Tabikh (Ibn Sad, Tabaqat, vol.8, p. 212). And Umar ibn Al-Khattab appointed Shifa bint Abdullah as the administrator of the marketplace in Madinah (Al-Isti'ab fi Asma' al-Ahsab). And then there are the women who were involved in agriculture, such as Asma bint Abi Bakr (Bukhari and Muslim) and the woman who used to tend the date palms and was encouraged to do so by the Porphet pbuh (Musannaf Abd ar-Razzaq).

Regards

 

[Knut Hamsun]

Lush:

LOL

I just got a negative rep from cool_jannah for stating the obvious:

If he's so worried about other men looking at his future wife, how come he's not worried about other women checking him out?

I, too, argued against a similair double standard with cool-jannah but have yet to hear anything back from him.
I say this b/c this issue relates directly to the topic and should be examined.

 

[renak]

hey renak you're a christian right and you believe in the NT

Well Jesus PBUH says


Now adultery is a big sin. If you're gonna dress in a revealing way so that men look at you, you're causing them to committ adultery. So you're helping them sin. Can't you see here Jesus PBUH has said you can't look at a woman. it's the same with islam, its what is says in the Qur'an, for us to lower our gazes, but Islam is practical, it provides a way, by having hijab for sisters so that men don't look with evil desires

Hello Moss, the scripture you listed is correct. However, Christianity (protestant) allows for open translation. For example, I could look at these two scriptures and say that the meaning is to make men recognize that no one is without sin. Instead of ostracizing a woman or man who have engaged in an unmarried sexual act, men need to look at their own lusty desires. Did they just admire the beauty of another woman, and not act upon it because they were rejected by the woman, were they too insecure to approach her??? Perhaps if they were given the opportunity to do more than gaze at the woman, they most definitely would. Therefore, they are equal in sin. There are endless interpretations......this is just one I quickly thought up. Christian translation may not be as black and white as the Muslim translation.

Nonetheless, I think the main focus should be on personal responsibility for ones own actions. Learning to deal with our lust and desire is a form of self-growth, and I don't think God likes to see us stagnant.

I also fail to understand how hijab keeps the male desire at bay. Perhaps there is much more to it than covering your hair. I just don't know many men who lust after hair. Instead, I think they would be lusting after the breasts, hips, legs....

 

[irsha]

I would really like your response to my comments on your statements that I found to be franlky very bigoted and narrow-minded.


Quote:
Hey, thats a bit unfair, I already said you have every right to dress how you want, and so do I, it only becomes a problem if one of us tells the other what they MUST do.

I think the problem comes in you statements that you feel sorry for Muslims who are "shackled by their jealous rules" - such a statement reeks of intolerance and effectively negates your claim of mutual respect.

I do feel sorry for them, because I think they do not get to feel the joy of freely expressing themeselves, and I have had many, many muslims say they feel sorry for me because of their reasons. I don't ask them to stop dressing the way they do, in fact they never talk to us anyway, so how could I? I still feel the rules were formed by jealous husbands etc, but thats only my opinion, of course you will disagree. In any case, you girls can wear whatever you like, as I said, its not what I would wear, but I wouldnt wear anything I consider daggy and drab. Now ansar, you really must stop thinking that every time someone dissagrees that they are being biggotted, lying or insulting. I have been insulted far more times by muslims than I have ever insulted muslims, why can't you just converse?



Quote:
Originally Posted by irsha
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
No because God commands men and women to dress in the modest manner outlined in the Qur'an and the Sunnah whereas there is no command to take slaves.

In your opinion

I meant in your opinion about the God commanding men and women to dress in modest manner, I don't believe God commanded any such thing, because I don't believe the koran is Gods word, but again, thats my opinion, you have stated yours.[/COLOR

No, not in my opinion, it's fact. Show me a quote from the Qur'an or Sunnah mandating slavery.

I never said that slavery was mandated, now who is puting words intop who's mouth? but I see that it is allowed according to you, in times of military action, which I also see you carefully avoided my question about the Pakistan invasion of Bangladesh?

Quote:
That is their right to think that, but have you asked the vast majority if they really think that? I think it would depend on how you asked the question. Many would have their price when it came down to it, after the movie "indecent proposal" I asked a few women who's first reaction was - "no way" when I asked them, what if someone offered you 10 million dollars, thinking of how much charity they could do- quess what, many changed their tune. Also, ask a Palestinian women would she do it for the price of freedom for her whole country- I can quess what the answer may be. The point is- everyone has their price, some just higher than others.

Thank you for proving my point. You just pointed out that these women only do it for the money or freedom, not because they find the job elevating or influential - if they had an alternative to get the money or freedom they would do it.

I didn't prove your point at all, I was not even arguing about that point. I know some girls who are sex workers, and they love their job, they get paid huge money, they have made enough to set themselves up for life. They enjoy the work, and given an alternative- like working in another job, they wouldnt take it. I like my work, I even do some erotic dancing, I would not stop even if someone paid me the same money to do nothing, I like doing it, its fun.

peace.

 

[renak]

First of all, last warning to everyone - stay on topic or the thread will be closed.

Hello Renak,

I don't care for conjecture, imagination or assumptions, especially when they are illogical as men only lose from women covering themselves and abstaining from sex.
I feel you are being disrespectful and rude. I feel no need to post multiple internet articles, or links to religious opinions just to appease you. You didn't like my previous answer, that is fine. I'm not asking anyone to accept my beliefs, just to respect them. I am respecting all other beliefs, and have enough faith in humanity to believe that I should be afforded the same treatment.

Which part did you not understand?

Clearly the whole part.

Islam restricted the sources of slavery and encouraged (mandated in some cases) the freeing of slaves - this has already been covered in this topic:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/8369-slave-girls.html

I read your link, and many others. I still feel that you are avoiding my initial question. The position of slavery has changed in Islam. Therefore, why is it not an allowable option (notice I did not say mandatory) to allow women to drop hijab?

Muslims who do not adhere to the laws of Islam are mistaken and have erred but that doesn't mean they are automatically disbelievers. May God help us all to improve in the practice our religion.
I'll accept this, as your opinion only.

I am not neglecting that. You said that when someone is reduced to an object of desire they increase in power, authority, and influence - a statment that is blatantly false. A person of authority and influence is one who is intelligent and can lead others; you do the greatest disservice to women when you state that their greatest influence is as a material possesion.

I thought we were debating? I don't consider this to be a matter of I'm right and your wrong. I'm not all knowing, are you???? By the way, if you read my prior posts on this thread you will not find me likening women to material possesions.

This is the part where I say, "Aha!" Can you not see the problem in what you have just said?
Can you not see the contradiction in claiming liberation and then admitting that
a) you would not be accepted in society if you did not dress in a revealing manner pleasing to men and
b) that a woman in western society has maximum influence when she is reduced to an object of desire.

These are both points you have made which indicate that the position of women in your society is much worse than it seems.
No, I do not see your perceived contradiction. I never stated that a woman would have to be dressed in a revealing manner (I believe I said stylish, or fashionable, something to that extent). I also believe that you are misinterpreting my statements. A woman won't have maximum influence in western society if she is just the object of desire. She has to offer intelligence, an education, empathy, etc... She has to offer the whole package.

I also want to point out that we are all objects of desire, and have our own objects of desire. Why do you have to view it as being "reduced". I think it is much nicer and loving to think of it as being "lifted".
Hello Irsha,
You missed my post here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/243862-post68.html

I would really like your response to my comments on your statements that I found to be franlky very bigoted and narrow-minded.


I think the problem comes in you statements that you feel sorry for Muslims who are "shackled by their jealous rules" - such a statement reeks of intolerance and effectively negates your claim of mutual respect.


No, not in my opinion, it's fact. Show me a quote from the Qur'an or Sunnah mandating slavery.


Thank you for proving my point. You just pointed out that these women only do it for the money or freedom, not because they find the job elevating or influential - if they had an alternative to get the money or freedom they would do it.

peace.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Greetings irsha,

I do feel sorry for them

Do you see the difference between feeling sorry for someone and respecting someone for the way they choose to live?

because I think they do not get to feel the joy of freely expressing themeselves

Well you wrote quite a bigoted paragraph which I responded to here, illustrating the flaws in your reasoning and how it could just as easily be turned around.

I meant in your opinion about the God commanding men and women to dress in modest manner, I don't believe God commanded any such thing, because I don't believe the koran is Gods word, but again, thats my opinion, you have stated yours.

Okay, thank you for clarifying. In this case my point stands.

which I also see you carefully avoided my question about the Pakistan invasion of Bangladesh?

Because I had already referred you to the thread where this question was discussed in great detail:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/8369-slave-girls.html
Read the thread and if you feel that your question has still not been answered, post it there and I'll be more than happy to discuss it.

That is their right to think that, but have you asked the vast majority if they really think that? I think it would depend on how you asked the question. Many would have their price when it came down to it, after the movie "indecent proposal" I asked a few women who's first reaction was - "no way" when I asked them, what if someone offered you 10 million dollars, thinking of how much charity they could do- quess what, many changed their tune. Also, ask a Palestinian women would she do it for the price of freedom for her whole country- I can quess what the answer may be. The point is- everyone has their price, some just higher than others.

Here you mentioned quite explicitly the views of the majority, and that is what established my point. Most women, according to you, find such an occupation degrading. And that was exactly my point.


Greetings renak,

I'm not asking anyone to accept my beliefs, just to respect them.

And how are you respecting the beliefs of others when you accuse them of blindly following man-made laws? You didn't say, "In my opinion...." you said quite clearly, "Of course this regulation was created by males.". Now if this is just your personal conjecture which you cannot back up with evidence, don't expect it to be taken as evidence in a factual debate.

About the Nuns, you wrote:

Modest dress is something common to religious women. When someone sees a Nun dressed in this manner, what message does that send?

It sends the message that they don't want sex now, or anytime in their lifetime.

And how do you think such women are looked upon by society?

Clearly the whole part.

There's a difference between saying, "I believe I can reject God's rules" and saying, "Sometimes I fall prey to temptation and violate the rules, but I still believe I am mandated to follow them".

I read your link, and many others. I still feel that you are avoiding my initial question. The position of slavery has changed in Islam. Therefore, why is it not an allowable option (notice I did not say mandatory) to allow women to drop hijab?

If you read the entire thread, you wouldn't have this question because it was made very clear. And I have explained this multiple times in this thread as well. Once again: hijab is mandatory in Islam, it is a religious practice. Slavery is not, it was a cultural practice that Islam worked to remove.

By the way, if you read my prior posts on this thread you will not find me likening women to material possesions.

How about this:

I have the upper hand with a man who views me only as an object of desire. [*]

A clear indication that you believe women have value and advantage when they are viwed ONLY as an OBJECT of desire.

I also believe that you are misinterpreting my statements.

Am I? Let's take a look again:

However, in my society, as a working woman, I would not be accepted if I were covered.

a) you would not be accepted in society if you did not dress in a revealing manner pleasing to men and

I have the upper hand with a man who views me only as an object of desire. [*]

b) that a woman in western society has maximum influence when she is reduced to an object of desire.

I haven't misinterpreted anything; you've made your position quite clear.



Hello Lush,

You are not a necklace! You're a human being! Dress however you like, wear an abaya, a niqaab, or peacock feather, but DO NOT, for the sake of all that is holy in all of us, compare yourself to a pretty little rock! You have a soul! You are NOT an object!

Dehumanizing yourself and other women like you have just done is a real issue.

I think some of the statements from non-muslims on this thread are the most dehumanizing of all. Take the following example:

I have the upper hand with a man who views me only as an object of desire. [*]

What is your opinion on the mentality of your fellow western women who view themselves as most influential when they are only an object of desire?

Regards

 

[renak]

Greetings renak,

And how are you respecting the beliefs of others when you accuse them of blindly following man-made laws? You didn't say, "In my opinion...." you said quite clearly, "Of course this regulation was created by males.". Now if this is just your personal conjecture which you cannot back up with evidence, don't expect it to be taken as evidence in a factual debate.

There is no need to say, "In my opinion..." for I typed the words; therefore, they cannot be anyone elses opinion. If I were to offer up the opinion of another person, I would provide the source. This is the rule of composition. Perhaps the rule of online composition differs??????
About the Nuns, you wrote:

And how do you think such women are looked upon by society?

I don't know where I stated this, or in the context it was stated. Are you sure this was me?

There's a difference between saying, "I believe I can reject God's rules" and saying, "Sometimes I fall prey to temptation and violate the rules, but I still believe I am mandated to follow them".

Thanks for the clarification.
If you read the entire thread, you wouldn't have this question because it was made very clear. And I have explained this multiple times in this thread as well. Once again: hijab is mandatory in Islam, it is a religious practice. Slavery is not, it was a cultural practice that Islam worked to remove.

I actually did read the thread and your posts. However, this is the first time I've been able to make sense out of what you are saying. Again, thank you for the clarification. I believe that I, and many others on this forum, may be unable to differentiate between the cultural and religious practices of Islam. Would you happen to know of an easy to decipher list which outlines these two very different types of practices? I'm not interested in the he said/she said, I said/you said opinions. I want to deal with the cold facts, and nothing else.

How about this:

A clear indication that you believe women have value and advantage when they are viwed ONLY as an OBJECT of desire.



Am I? Let's take a look again:


a) you would not be accepted in society if you did not dress in a revealing manner pleasing to men and

These are your strictly your words.

b) that a woman in western society has maximum influence when she is reduced to an object of desire.

For someone so driven by quoting sources, you haven't cared to quote me. Instead, you have offered up your opinion only.

I haven't misinterpreted anything; you've made your position quite clear.

We should always be willing to view others interpretations, and make adjustments to our own. I do so with yours, and will continue to do so.

Love and Light

 

[Tilmeez]

I
Men are weak in regard to controlling their sexuality. This is not something that they should ignore. Instead of expecting someone else to take care their weakness (i.e. expecting women to cover up), they need to work on their own issues. By being unable to take responsibility for their own weakness, they are being lazy.

A health human(man or women) has the same intensity of desire for the sex.... only men are not weak (i am not saying this coz i am a man but it is fact.)
let us see this from an other point of view.... i.e. physical... in normal situation our sextual fetures remain silent and we intend to go about our daily life business...right??? Allah has created man and woman with different chemistry like man can develope sextual desire from sight only while it is not valid for women... right?? there for Islam ask women to cover theirselves and the same time asks men to keep their gaze LOWER to avoid this all.
Islam know that sex is an essential part of human life therefore it gives freedom of sex but in a limitation of NiKah.... this not only satisfy the desire for sex but also forms a strong social Unit... Islam counts women a respectable entity and to mantain this respect it has some rules.

An other aspect is looking at a woman or man other than your own weaken you body, nerve system etc.
to cut is short i belive that woman should be covered. it is her real beauty and respect that she is not that easy that eveyone can see and pass comments about her.... she is a respected member of our society and she has arrangements for all her physical, social and religious needs!!

 

[irsha]

A health human(man or women) has the same intensity of desire for the sex.... only men are not weak (i am not saying this coz i am a man but it is fact.)
let us see this from an other point of view.... i.e. physical... in normal situation our sextual fetures remain silent and we intend to go about our daily life business...right??? Allah has created man and woman with different chemistry like man can develope sextual desire from sight only while it is not valid for women... right?? there for Islam ask women to cover theirselves and the same time asks men to keep their gaze LOWER to avoid this all.
Islam know that sex is an essential part of human life therefore it gives freedom of sex but in a limitation of NiKah.... this not only satisfy the desire for sex but also forms a strong social Unit... Islam counts women a respectable entity and to mantain this respect it has some rules.

An other aspect is looking at a woman or man other than your own weaken you body, nerve system etc.
to cut is short i belive that woman should be covered. it is her real beauty and respect that she is not that easy that eveyone can see and pass comments about her.... she is a respected member of our society and she has arrangements for all her physical, social and religious needs!!

Wrong, i can easily get excited by the sight of a beautiful male or female body, this is not a male only thing. So, you see, you really do not understand what you think you did. You believe women should be covered, fine, I do not.

 

[F.Y.]

I also fail to understand how hijab keeps the male desire at bay. Perhaps there is much more to it than covering your hair. I just don't know many men who lust after hair. Instead, I think they would be lusting after the breasts, hips, legs....

You are right there. It is more than just hair. Maybe we should have cleared that up with you. Your dress in general should be long and cover your shape. You have probably seen women with the long cloaks on. Many women also cover their face.

Hope that helps.
Peace

 

[renak]

You are right there. It is more than just hair. Maybe we should have cleared that up with you. Your dress in general should be long and cover your shape. You have probably seen women with the long cloaks on. Many women also cover their face.

Hope that helps.
Peace

Actually, I've only seem that type of woman in pictures. The hijab wearing women where I live wear fashionable hijab which co-ordinates with their modern (often form fitting) outfits. So maybe the muslim ladies I'm accustomed to seeing are actually wearing the hijab with little or no benefit???? dunno:? :?

 

[F.Y.]

Wrong, i can easily get excited by the sight of a beautiful male or female body, this is not a male only thing. So, you see, you really do not understand what you think you did. You believe women should be covered, fine, I do not.

Yes, I understand. Both males and females can get excited just by looking at an attractive body. That is why God says in the Qur'an,

"Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and protect their private parts. That will make for greater purity for them. Verily, Allah is well acquainted with all that they do. And tell the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their private parts and not to display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear thereof and to draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands..." (Holy Qur'an, 24:30-31)

Here it is clear both men and women are expected to be mindful of what they look at. So I agree with you that both men and women can get excited by looking.

Also, it is not only women that have a dress requirement. Men also have restrictions in terms of dress. It should be loose, not show shape and modest too and be covering at least from the navel to below the knee.

Hope that helps.

 

[F.Y.]

Actually, I've only seem that type of woman in pictures. The hijab wearing women where I live wear fashionable hijab which co-ordinates with their modern (often form fitting) outfits. So maybe the muslim ladies I'm accustomed to seeing are actually wearing the hijab with little or no benefit???? dunno:? :?

I see what you are saying. But I do not think that what they are wearing has little or no benefit. You see, even wearing hijab with the modern stuff they wear, the covering of the head has the effect of making you 'different' to the crowd. Even if men look, they would be wary of approaching someone sexually, who evidently has a belief system that seems so 'different' too. I have seen women wear the hijab like this when they are starting out and slowly trying to get themselves 'into the groove' of wearing the full dress thing. They are immediately treated differently, and most people are quite accepting and respectful of them.

Peace

 

[renak]

I see what you are saying. But I do not think that what they are wearing has little or no benefit. You see, even wearing hijab with the modern stuff they wear, the covering of the head has the effect of making you 'different' to the crowd. Even if men look, they would be wary of approaching someone sexually, who evidently has a belief system that seems so 'different' too. I have seen women wear the hijab like this when they are starting out and slowly trying to get themselves 'into the groove' of wearing the full dress thing. They are immediately treated differently, and most people are quite accepting and respectful of them.

Peace

I can see your point about men being afraid to approach them because of the difference. Thanks for your comments.

 

[Tilmeez]

Wrong, i can easily get excited by the sight of a beautiful male or female body, this is not a male only thing. So, you see, you really do not understand what you think you did. You believe women should be covered, fine, I do not.

Due to the shortage of time i could not see All of the Posts in the thread... just saw the First few and put down my own opinion (not knowing what actually was going on the thread) now i saw a FEW post beneath and above my post and realize that my opinion was clearer but every one took it as it was related to the previous posts..... no body took it as a point of view...

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Greetings Renak

There is no need to say, "In my opinion..." for I typed the words; therefore, they cannot be anyone elses opinion.

I meant that it was your personal opinion vs. a substantiated argument.

I don't know where I stated this, or in the context it was stated. Are you sure this was me?

It was taken from your post here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/244420-post104.html

Thanks for the clarification.

You're welcome.

Would you happen to know of an easy to decipher list which outlines these two very different types of practices?

A list would be too long, but the decisive criteria to determine whether a practice is cultural or religious is to see if it has its basis in the Qur'an or the Sunnah (teachings of Prophet Muhammad pbuh). If it does its religious.

For someone so driven by quoting sources, you haven't cared to quote me. Instead, you have offered up your opinion only.

These are your statements I quoted:

However, in my society, as a working woman, I would not be accepted if I were covered.

Taken from you post here http://www.islamicboard.com/245182-post150.html
And:

I have the upper hand with a man who views me only as an object of desire.

Taken from your post here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/244383-post99.html

Based on these two comments, I said that you believe
a) you would not be accepted in society if you did not dress in a revealing manner pleasing to men and
b) that a woman in western society has maximum influence when she is reduced to an object of desire.

Peace

 

[Mohsin]

Lol good post Bro Ansar, i don't know why they keep doubting your word, i guess you're gonna have to remind them what they have said by repeatedlly giving them links to their own posts!

 

[renak]

Lol good post Bro Ansar, i don't know why they keep doubting your word, i guess you're gonna have to remind them what they have said by repeatedlly giving them links to their own posts!

Well I for one will continue to doubt his words until they make sense and are presented in a manner consistent with truth, and free from hostility. For example, if you look at the link he attached to show where I made the statement, "And how do you think such women are looked upon by society", you will find that I did not say this statement on this post. This lead to much confusion for me. Therefore, the issue is not that I doubt "his" words; instead, his answers have caused further confusion, and questions.

In addition, when I've asked for clarity, or deeper explanation; instead of an effort being made to offer up a different explanation, he issued insulting remarks and generalizations.

I do respect Islam, and will continue to explore this faith. However, dialogue in this manner is counterproductive, and only makes one want to avoid the religion.

 

[ummnasr]

Salams evryone, with topics like this, be very cafeful when discussing niqab with non -muslims, my mum is having problems with me wanting to wear it (she is a non-muslim) but not as much as the born muslims, I simply just say
Lakum deenukum wa liya deen
( aren't Allahs words perfect)