Creationists dealt a blow

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It first talks about "theories" of evolution, and then goes on to negate the evolution theory
You mean he talks about the conflict between the religous belief and the fact that "man" in a biblical sense was to be "pure" in creation which as he states:

the human individual cannot be subordinated as a pure means or a pure instrument,

He then talks about mans mind and intellect, which I don't have any beef with.

that is taught as fact in science circles as degrading to mankind. Of course that is of no consequence for the likes of root and his peers, for whom humans are just another animal like pigs or dogs and religion is a mere matter of chance due to advanced human intellect...

Your sailing close to the wind my friend, be careful. To suggest I akin humans to that of pigs and dogs is verging on offensive. Should I walk around claiming that the like of you and your peers are just suicide bombers and terrorists looking for any excuse to kill indescriminately until you yourself have been killed! would you not call that arrogant. Far from it, however I don't place the human species as being a divine creation nor a product of pure creation?

I think if you read it objectively he refers to the spiritual and concious side of man. Not the physical form and how out of matter we formed!
 
:sl: to the Muslims

For all the arrogant Evolution worshippers, please tell me just one of the "evolution theories" which is consistent with the Chruch's idea that man was created in the form and shape of God Allmighty (this is not a Muslim belief, but a christian one, however we have to go with the flow).

and yes, Evolution worshippers like root and cz do contend that we are nothing but animals.. Alas, they grudgingly admit that equating us with such animals is an insult to humanity and its dignity, but they cannot escape the consequences of the Evolutionist religion they worship, which puts us all, humans pigs dogs and chimps, on the same pedestal, differntiated only by chance and luck.

To the Evolution worhsippers: You can try to claim whatever you wish about Evolution not being offensive to humans, but the truth of the Evolution hallucination points the other way.
 
For all the arrogant Evolution worshippers,

Not a good start.

please tell me just one of the "evolution theories" which is consistent with the Chruch's idea that man was created in the form and shape of God Allmighty (this is not a Muslim belief, but a christian one, however we have to go with the flow).

I was born into a christianity society and had a mild christian up bringing. I think moderate christians don't see evolution as a relegous issue. Further, moderate christians view evolution as the work of god? Indeed some muslims also are starting to adopt this attitude:

At least in the West, some Muslims allow for belief in theistic evolution. Iqbal Hossain, president of the Islamic Society of Greater Salt Lake said: "If you believe in God and in the Qur'an, you have to believe that everything that was in the universe was created by God. "If there was an evolutionary process, that process was created and put in place by God." However, others totally attack evolution.

and yes, Evolution worshippers like root and cz do contend that we are nothing but animals..

I can't speak for CZ, but ultimately yes I do see mankind as an animal species.

Alas, they grudgingly admit that equating us with such animals is an insult to humanity and its dignity,

Humanity & compassion is definately a human trait, none of that is taken away on the premis we have evolved over time to gain such fine qualities.

but they cannot escape the consequences of the Evolutionist religion they worship, which puts us all, humans pigs dogs and chimps, on the same pedestal,

We cannot bury our heads in the sand and blindly ignore some home truths, though you are doing a fine job.

differntiated only by chance and luck.

You really should stop being indoctrinated so much, it really is effecting your ability to think outside the box indapendantly and perverts your understanding of evolution, perhaps that is why your hostility to it is such.
 
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Peace to Those Who Follow the Guidance!

I need help understanding the following- if any one can contribute it would be much appreciated-


-Does Evolution theory support the idea that all living organisms (including Humans) evolved from some form of a primitive cell?

-Is it correct to surmise that it’s still a “scientific mystery” how this cell came into existence!

-If it is still a mystery, why is it a mystery?

-Taking constituents of a simple cell, (i.e. the proteins- amino acids etc) into account and the complexity of the cell itself, what is the probability of these constituents coming together by chance to construct the cell?

Kind Regards

Qurban

:)
 
Greetings Jello,
For all the arrogant Evolution worshippers,

Please don't describe someone you disagree with as being arrogant. It's a weak debating tactic, also known as the ad hominem fallacy.

please tell me just one of the "evolution theories" which is consistent with the Chruch's idea that man was created in the form and shape of God Allmighty (this is not a Muslim belief, but a christian one, however we have to go with the flow).

The existence or non-existence of god has nothing to do with evolution. If Christians want to adopt belief in evolution as part of their world-view, then that is a question they would have to ask themselves, since god is part of their way of understanding things. This may or may not be the case among evolutionists.

and yes, Evolution worshippers like root and cz do contend that we are nothing but animals.

Correct. I agree with this, and root says he does too.

Alas, they grudgingly admit that equating us with such animals is an insult to humanity and its dignity

Incorrect. On the contrary, I think claiming that we somehow have more "dignity" than other animals is essentially a meaningless assertion.

but they cannot escape the consequences of the Evolutionist religion they worship,

What beings do evolutionists worship?
What rituals and traditions do evolutionists follow?
What moral system is instantiated among believers in evolution?

In what way is evolution a religion?

which puts us all, humans pigs dogs and chimps, on the same pedestal, differntiated only by chance and luck.

'Putting something on a pedestal' implies semi-worship. Is that what you intended here?

To the Evolution worhsippers: You can try to claim whatever you wish about Evolution not being offensive to humans, but the truth of the Evolution hallucination points the other way.

First of all, I don't worship evolution. Things that I believe to be true are important to me, yes - but that hardly constitutes worship.

Secondly, if you believe evolution is insulting to humans, that's fine. You're free to believe whatever you want. Howewer, if you were to study some of the many questions of modern biology without an evolutionary background, you'd find that saying "well, that's just the way god made things" gets you nowhere as an explanatory hypothesis.

Jello, the fact that you know very little about evolution shines through every one of your posts. Don't you think it would be better to study the theory first, and then decide whether or not you agree with it?

Peace
 
-Does Evolution theory support the idea that all living organisms (including Humans) evolved from some form of a primitive cell?

Yes.

-Is it correct to surmise that it’s still a “scientific mystery” how this cell came into existence!

Yes.

-If it is still a mystery, why is it a mystery?

Because it origins are not yet know, ranging from simple protobionts forming from a primordial soup on earth to organic material coming from space to my favourite "Panspermia". It's not that we don't understand how the first cells formed we don't know where and why?

-Taking constituents of a simple cell, (i.e. the proteins- amino acids etc) into account and the complexity of the cell itself, what is the probability of these constituents coming together by chance to construct the cell?

I don't buy the complexity, but this is a thread on evolution and in this Islamic forum it's been a battle just to seperate abiogenesis (the formation of the first living cells) and Evolution (the change to species over time from the first simple cesll).

Perhaps we should start a thread on Abiogenesis..............
 
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:sl:
How does DNA fit into evolution theories? What does it have to say on DNA?
 
and yes, Evolution worshippers like root and cz do contend that we are nothing but animals..

I can't speak for CZ, but ultimately yes I do see mankind as an animal species.

Man is an animal species, but that of course just depends on how you define "animal".


Alas, they grudgingly admit that equating us with such animals is an insult to humanity and its dignity


Humanity & compassion is definately a human trait, none of that is taken away on the premis we have evolved over time to gain such fine qualities.

A couple of points. Firstly what's so bad or degrading about being compared to (other) animals? How many wars have dolphins started? How many chimpanzees torture fellow chimpanzees? How much pollution have ants unleashed on the environment? In many ways, my friends, humanity sucks - big time.

Secondly, I been pushing the Catholic view on this (even if it isn't my own) to try and demonstrate that "man is just an animal" is NOT a necessary consequence of accepting evolution. They hold that man is unique, because only man has a soul, given by God. That particular distinction between man and animal, incidently, was first made by the Church long before Darwin was born. Because they take a dualist approach, distinguishing between mind/soul and body, that view is perfectly reconcilable with evolution by natural selection. Many evolutionists, of course are materialists and reductions who do not accept that, by nonetheless the two are not synonymous.



:sl:
How does DNA fit into evolution theories? What does it have to say on DNA?

It's all very complicated - I don't mean that in patronizing fashion, it really is! The best thing to do would be to get some books, or do some internet research yourself, so the authors you are reading are rather more knowledgeable than anyone here (I suspect!)

There are three main mechanisms of evolution. The first is "natural selection" (the only one of these three processes understood in Darwin's time), in which traits that tend to provide a reproductive advantage increase in frequency in a given population over time. Assuming that some mechanism of heredity exists (remember Darwin knew nothing about DNA), that reason for that is pretty obvious.

The second is "genetic drift" in which the frequencies of existing genes in a population change over time by chance. The gene strands are carried within the DNA molecule.

The last is mutation, a change in the genes (within the DNA) themselves which can be caused by such things as viral infections, radiation (background radiation is quite sufficient) or chemical agents (again, naturally occuring ones will do).
 
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Trumble "A couple of points. Firstly what's so bad or degrading about being compared to (other) animals? How many wars have dolphins started? How many chimpanzees torture fellow chimpanzees? How much pollution have ants unleashed on the environment?".

You sure that you want to stick by all of that?

Wouldn't it be kind of like the question "How many Honey Bees have started a war?"

Thanks
Nimrod
 
You sure that you want to stick by all of that?

Wouldn't it be kind of like the question "How many Honey Bees have started a war?"

Thanks
Nimrod


I take your point, but it hardly damages my argument. ;)


if evolution is true they should have found countless numbers of transitional fossils


Large numbers have been found. The idea that there are none is perhaps the biggest creationist myth, at least when talking about evolution.

It simply isn't true. The only reason that 'argument' keeps getting peddled by creationists is that without it, their 'scientific' case is non-existent.
 
How does DNA fit into evolution theories? What does it have to say on DNA?

Fossils like archeological specimens are more or less direct relics of the past. DNA is another method termed "renewed relics". For historians renewed relics could mean eyewitness accounts handed down by oral or written documents. We cannot ask any living witnesses what life was like to live in the 14th century, but we know about it thanks to written documents.

Written documents in turn are more reliable than oral tradition by a disconcerting margin. frustratingly, oral tradition peters out almost immediately unless preserved by the decaying of the facts and amazingly after just a few generations historical facts about real history rapidly degenerates (or blossoms, depending on your taste) into myths about demigods, devils and fire breathing dragons. Oral traditions and it's vulnerability is well explained by "chinese whispers", a game I use to play as a child and at school if anything to demonstrate the fallability of oral tradition compounded further by a great example from world war 1 within the british forces and I think it is well worth telling:

A message to be passed on orally back to headquarters from the front line was a simple one

"Bring reinforcements we are going to advance"

This message seems simple enough, however as the message was passed orally through a chain of people finally the commanders at the headquarters recieved the message:

Bring three and four pence we are going to a dance

What use is this information to the commanders. I need not go on about oral tradition but will return to it shortly besides the theory of evolution has no equivelant to oral traditions.

Writing is a huge improvement, paper papyrus or even stone tablets may wear out and decay but written records have the potential to be copied accurately for an indefinate numer of generations. This is good in theory but not in practice, if you was to write a letter to me 10 generations ago and asked each generation to write it down, if you write it down with painstaking accuracy being very careful of your writing style, it has a good chance of reaching me accurately. However, if through the generations the letter was go through language changes such as from English to French then you start to get something similar to "chinese whispers". For example, there exists a consonant sound between the English hard c and g (it is the French hard c in comme) but nobody would attempt to represent this sound by writing a character which looks intermediate between c and g.

We have today an accurate account of the destruction of Pompeii in 79AD because a witness, Pliny wrote down what he saw. The accuracy is retained firstly because it is his writing and his words, secondly it was not subjected to oral tradition before being committed to text.

It is only a theoretical ideal that copying retains perfect accuracy. In practice scribes are fallable and not above massaging their copy to make it say things that they think (no doubt sincerely) the original document ought to have said. Made worse if such a documents source goes back to oral tradition. Afterall writing cannot take us beyond the point of it's invention which was only about 5,000 years ago. Identification symbols counting marks and pictures can take us back further perhaps some tens of thousands of years. But such time scales are mere chicken feed when looking into the history of evolution.

Fortunately, when we turn to evolution their is another kind of duplicated information which goes back an almost unimaginable large number of copying generations precisely because unlike modern to old or differing languages it has a "self normalisation", in other words the written text of DNA information in all living creatures has been handed down from remote ancestors hundreds of millions years ago with awesome accuracy.

DNA messages are written in a true alphabet like the Roman Greek or Cyrillic.
(If you found a civilisation that existed 1 million years ago who used Roman true alphabet in written documents would you not conclude they were Roman ancestors or conclude they have nothing to do with the romans and were a seperate civilisation). A powerful suggestion when you consider the alphabet of DNA has never been observed "different" from any species where DNA has been extracted.

The DNA alphabet is a strictly limited repetoire of symbols with no self evident meaning. Arbitrary symbols are chosen and combined to make meaningful messages of complexity and size. Where English has 26 letters to the alphabet and Greek 24 the DNA alphabet only has 4. Most useful DNA spells out three letter words from a dictionary limited to just 64 words, each word called a "codon". The dictionary maps 64 code words (codons) onto 21 meanings (the 20 biological amino acids plus one all purpose comma) Human languages are numerous and always changing and contain tens of thousands of distinct words, but the 64-word DNA dictionary is universal and unchanged. The 20 amino acids are strung into sequences of typically a few hundred , each sequence a particular protien molecule. Whereas the number of letters is limited to four and the codons to 64, there is no theoretical limit to the number of protiens that can be spelled out by different sequences of codons. A "sentence" of codons specifying one protien molecule is an identifiable unit often called a gene.

Understood this way, the DNA record is an almost unbelievably rich gift which every individula species carries and has had passed down since life first began almost like a "Genetic Book of the Dead". A descriptive record of ancestoral worlds including it's body form, it's inherited behaviour and the chemistry of it's cells. The food they sought, the predators they escaped, the climates they endured. The message is ultimately scripted in the DNA that fell through the succession of sieves that is "natural Selection"...........

Finally, to finish on a little point. DNA also brings with it some truths which identifies past mistakes within even taxonomy. It was believed that the Hippopotomas and Pig shared a common ancestor, DNA showed us that it;s closest living ancestor (like chimps are the closest common ancestor to man) is not a pig at all, it's the Whale........... Go figure hu :-)

I have to stop my fingers ache.......
 
:sl: to the Muslims

I do not need to study evolution to know it is false. Allah the AllMighty has already told me that we do not come from some animal or single cell, this is all I need to know. Since the Evolution Worshippers do not generally accept God in any form or way or try to make excuses to fool the unwary about how Evolution and God may go hand-in-hand,that is their problem to answer on Judgemnet Day.

What beings do evolutionists worship?
What rituals and traditions do evolutionists follow?
What moral system is instantiated among believers in evolution?

In what way is evolution a religion?

Evoltutionits worship their own whims and the so called scientific method, a method that leads nowhere but Hellfire, as Allah has told us about those who take their whims and desires as their gods. Intersting that He (SWT) says that people like root and cz and other atheists are less than cattle, don't you think???

Not following rituals and traditions is a ritual in and of itself. The desire to reduce everything to science and experimentation is a religion with its own set of morals and values, even if it only means carrying out tests and making silly hypothesis like evolution.

Of course, the arrogants Evolution worshippers will not accept this, will keep on saying that humans are not debased by talk of evolution, andthat it does not contardict divine belief,but everything is clear cut for the true believer.
 
Greetings Jello,
I do not need to study evolution to know it is false.

How do you ever expect to educate yourself on any subject with that attitude?

Allah the AllMighty has already told me that we do not come from some animal or single cell, this is all I need to know.

Has Allah explicitly stated that evolution is not true? Where does Allah talk about single cells?
Since the Evolution Worshippers do not generally accept God in any form or way or try to make excuses to fool the unwary about how Evolution and God may go hand-in-hand,that is their problem to answer on Judgemnet Day.

Some evolutionists believe in god, some don't. If you don't want to believe this, that's up to you, but the facts are clearly against you in this case.

Evoltutionits worship their own whims and the so called scientific method, a method that leads nowhere but Hellfire, as Allah has told us about those who take their whims and desires as their gods.

What do you mean by "the so called scientific method"? What do you know about the scientific method, exactly?

If the scientific method leads to Hellfire, then I presume that Muslims would be well advised to avoid using any of the inventions that have come about as a result of it. Mobile phones, medicines and even the Internet, among many other things, have all been created by scientists. If you think they are connected in some way with Hellfire, I'd be surprised if you condoned their use by believers.

Your point about evolutionists following their own whims is weak. Scientists believe what the evidence tells them - not simply what they want to believe.

Intersting that He (SWT) says that people like root and cz and other atheists are less than cattle, don't you think???

What about our "humanity and dignity"? You've changed your position there.

Not following rituals and traditions is a ritual in and of itself.

Surely you can see the contradiction there?

The desire to reduce everything to science and experimentation is a religion with its own set of morals and values, even if it only means carrying out tests and making silly hypothesis like evolution.

Who wants to "reduce everything to science"? What moral code does this entail? You seem to have no compunction about making huge generalisations with no supporting evidence.

Of course, the arrogants Evolution worshippers will not accept this, will keep on saying that humans are not debased by talk of evolution, andthat it does not contardict divine belief,but everything is clear cut for the true believer.

That old ad hominem attack again - trust me, calling your opponent arrogant will do nothing to convince them.

"Everything is clear cut for the true believer." So you never have questions in your life? You understand everything already? Wow! Next time I've got a question about anything I'll ask you, since you see everything so clearly. On second thoughts, perhaps not.

Peace
 
Religion should lead us to god and help up become better people. I think god would conceder it an insult to use religion to stifle knowledge and understanding.
 
"I do not need to study evolution to know it is false".
Wow, what a concept.

Good grief.

Thanks
Nimrod
 
:sl: to the Muslims

Even though i know i will be labeled as arrogant and undisciplined, let us see what Pope benedict ctually has to say about evolution..

In addition, Cardinal Schonborn is recognized as a close friend and supporter of Pope Benedict XVI and is thought to have been among the new pope's strongest advocates in the last papal election. Schonborn then goes on to clarify some remarks made by Pope Benedict XVI (Cardinal Ratzinger) last year.

In an unfortunate new twist on this old controversy, neo-Darwinists recently have sought to portray our new pope, Benedict XVI, as a satisfied evolutionist. They have quoted a sentence about common ancestry from a 2004 document of the International Theological Commission, pointed out that Benedict was at the time head of the commission, and concluded that the Catholic Church has no problem with the notion of "evolution" as used by mainstream biologists - that is, synonymous with neo-Darwinism.

The commission's document, however, reaffirms the perennial teaching of the Catholic Church about the reality of design in nature. Commenting on the widespread abuse of John Paul's 1996 letter on evolution, the commission cautions that "the letter cannot be read as a blanket approbation of all theories of evolution, including those of a neo-Darwinian provenance which explicitly deny to divine providence any truly causal role in the development of life in the universe."

Furthermore, according to the commission, "An unguided evolutionary process - one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence - simply cannot exist."

Indeed, in the homily at his installation just a few weeks ago, Benedict proclaimed: "We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
(what else could the Evolutionists ask for in terms of clarification from the Pope!!!)


Of course, the arrogant Evolutionists will simply keep on spewing out their propaganda and say that every thinking person accepts evolution and those who do not (including us Muslims) are deluded and do not have any sense in us. That is their problem, not mine...
 
Of course, the arrogant Evolutionists will simply keep on spewing out their propaganda and say that every thinking person accepts evolution and those who do not (including us Muslims) are deluded and do not have any sense in us. That is their problem, not mine...


It has repeatedly been explained to you - at some length - why Catholic doctrine, and indeed those comments from Pope Benedict, do not represent a rejection of evolution. What they reject are materialist/reductionist explanations of evolution that deny a dualistic separation of body and soul, and the particular role of mankind in God's design.

You don't even bother reading what you quote yourself, which makes that absolutely clear;

"the letter cannot be read as a blanket approbation of all theories of evolution, including those of a neo-Darwinian provenance which explicitly deny to divine providence any truly causal role in the development of life in the universe."


"Arrogant" ? I don't think so; I'd put that down to the strength of your faith which is commendable as far as it goes. "Undisciplined"? Yes. You do not help your case by repeatedly misinterpreting things to say what you would like them to say even when it is clear they do not actually say it, or being rude to others simply because they hold a view as strongly as you your own.
 
:sl: to the Muslims, Hello to the non-Muslims

or a brief Islmic perspective on "evolution of man" as far as Islam is concerned, I would like to quote the following from shaykh keller..

As for claim that man has evolved from a non-human species, this is unbelief (kufr) no matter if we ascribe the process to Allah or to "nature," because it negates the truth of Adam's special creation that Allah has revealed in the Qur'an. Man is of special origin, attested to not only by revelation, but also by the divine secret within him, the capacity for ma'rifa or knowledge of the Divine that he alone of all things possesses. By his God-given nature, man stands before a door opening onto infinitude that no other creature in the universe can aspire to. Man is something else.

now, about the statement from the pope, I would like to ask again.. "Could somone tell me which are the theories of evolution that grant humanity the special and dignified status he enjoys according to all world religions"

How many "theories of evolution" exist , that the Church is denying some and accepting others...

finally, if we human beings were to pause and use our "highly evolved brain" for once to study the implications of the theory of evolution, we would immeditely see that it holds man as the creator of God, not God as the creator of man. This is very transparent to anyone who thinks for a moment about the implications of the theory.

I would also like to know how a buddhist like member "trumble" can accept this theory, when it clearly leaves no room for soul, and meditation and truth are reduced to abstract concepts of the human mind...
 
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