Islam and Apostasy

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi glo,

Thank you.

That is not what people in my 'leaving the faith' thread have said!!

There are a number of things that you should realize. First of all, I have explained the correct Islamic view in the first thread in this post, based on what is said in the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Secondly, there are numerous members on this forum who have not studied Islamic law and are speaking from hearsay, so they exhibit the same miscocneptions as Muslims. Islam is not based on the ignorant misconceptions of some people, it is based on the Qur'an and the Sunnah. I have provided the viewpoint that is in accordance with the Qur'and and the Sunnah and the consensus of Muslim scholars in the first post. I know this issue because I have studied it as opposed to the hearsay some members have conveyed to you or the teachings that have not properly been explained. Please see the first post in this thread and you will have the answer.

Clearly there are at least some people here who whole-hearted subscribe to the death penalty idea>

This is a public forum. The responses you recieved in that thread were not fatawa (religious rulings) from jurists, they were the ideas or the hearsay of some members on the forum, some of whom are very young. An opinion based upon ignorance is incomparable to the viewpoint constructed upon factual evidence and study. Please see the first post in this thread where I have explained this issue.

I am still waiting to hear what reaction somebody who does apostate in the UK can expect from their Muslim community??!
I wonder why there are no replies?

I have already responded to this; did you not see my response? Only an Islamic state can take action or punish criminals. Muslims cannot take this into their own hands. And an Islamic state only takes action against those who harm the society not the private affairs of individuals.

Or does apostasy in the UK not happen??? (I find that hard to believe)

It happens, but never has there been a devouteducated Muslim who left the religion after finding it to be flawed or inadequate. I have challenged peope to prove me wrong.

Regards

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi snakelegs,

i would urge you not to judge islam by the dominant thinking on this forum.

The issue here is not this thinking or that thinking but Islam should only be judged according to what it says, which is what is in the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, and non-muslims need to obtain clarification from those Muslims who have studied the Qur'an and Sunnah and are well-educated. The hearsay conveyed by some Muslims is incomparable to the educated and researched position conveyed by those who have actually studied the issues.

39:9 Say: "Are those who know equal to those who know not?"

I have explained the correct understanding in the first post.

Regards

 

[glo]

Thank you, Ansar Al-'Adl

I really appreciate you taking your time for such well presented replies.

You don't know me, therefore you have to understand that it is extremely unusual for me to react in such an emotional way.
Please allow me to ask a few more things.

Hi glo,

There are a number of things that you should realize. First of all, I have explained the correct Islamic view in the first thread in this post, based on what is said in the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Secondly, there are numerous members on this forum who have not studied Islamic law and are speaking from hearsay, so they exhibit the same miscocneptions as Muslims. Islam is not based on the ignorant misconceptions of some people, it is based on the Qur'an and the Sunnah. I have provided the viewpoint that is in accordance with the Qur'and and the Sunnah and the consensus of Muslim scholars in the first post. I know this issue because I have studied it as opposed to the hearsay some members have conveyed to you or the teachings that have not properly been explained. Please see the first post in this thread and you will have the answer.

Whenever I have had discussions with other Muslims, one of their strong arguments for Islam has been that it is very clear-cut and descriptive, and that there is no room for disagreement and dispute between Muslims (unlike in Christiany, where there tends to be a lot of debate).
I see that I was misinformed, and that indeed there seems to be ample opportunity for different interpretations of the Qu'ran.
(You may disagree here)

I am still waiting to hear what reaction somebody who does apostate in the UK can expect from their Muslim community??!
I wonder why there are no replies?
I have already responded to this; did you not see my response? Only an Islamic state can take action or punish criminals. Muslims cannot take this into their own hands. And an Islamic state only takes action against those who harm the society not the private affairs of individuals.

Yes, I did read your response, and I understand that.
But did you read my question in #108?
What happens within the community/ family when a Muslim apostates?
Is he/she still allowed to be part of the community? Can he/she remain married or remain in contact with children and other family members? Etc.
I cannot put the question any clearer, so I hope you know understand what I am asking!

I am sooooo frustrated!:heated:

Thanks for your patience.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello glo,
Thanks for your post.

I really appreciate you taking your time for such well presented replies.

I am glad you found my responses of benefit.

Whenever I have had discussions with other Muslims, one of their strong arguments for Islam has been that it is very clear-cut and descriptive, and that there is no room for disagreement and dispute between Muslims (unlike in Christiany, where there tends to be a lot of debate).
I see that I was misinformed, and that indeed there seems to be ample opportunity for different interpretations of the Qu'ran.

What makes you think that? The issue is very clear- we are to follow Islam as it was revealed by God in the Qur'an, explained and implemented by the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and as it was understood by his companions. We have a very clear methodology on following Islam which removes this confusion that arises from different interpetations. The differences you may see arise from ignorance as to what is in the Islamic sources or failure to distinguish between religious and cultural traditions, it is not a matter of different interpretations.

Yes, I did read your response, and I understand that.
But did you read my question in #108? What happens within the community/ family when a Muslim apostates?

That is something that has little to do with the religion but more to do with the nature of the community or family itself.

Is he/she still allowed to be part of the community?

Your question is confusing. You are asking me if someone who abandons the community is allowed to be part of the community. The Muslim community is exactly that - a community of Muslims. I am afraid I don't understand your question.

Can he/she remain married or remain in contact with children and other family members? Etc.

First, I am assuming you are referring within the context of western society. No a Muslim cannot remain married to such a person because our commitment and devotion to God is paramount in this life and someone who rejects that relationship will only damage the spiritual anbd emotional health of the family.

Regards

 

[snakelegs]

Hi snakelegs,

The issue here is not this thinking or that thinking but Islam should only be judged according to what it says, which is what is in the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, and non-muslims need to obtain clarification from those Muslims who have studied the Qur'an and Sunnah and are well-educated. The hearsay conveyed by some Muslims is incomparable to the educated and researched position conveyed by those who have actually studied the issues.

39:9 Say: "Are those who know equal to those who know not?"

I have explained the correct understanding in the first post.

Regards

my understanding is that islam (as any other religion) is not a monolith. there are differing opinions on which hadith are valid and which are not, there are various interpretations, degrees of orthodoxy and practice, etc.
even amongst religious scholars there are differences of opinion!
it would be a mistake to go to one islamic forum and conclude that this is islam, period. so i am saying do not judge islam from this (or any other) website.

 

[glo]

The differences you may see arise from ignorance as to what is in the Islamic sources or failure to distinguish between religious and cultural traditions, it is not a matter of different interpretations.

That may be so. But how do I know that you are the one with the true understanding, and the others the ones with ignorance? :-\
(No offence intended!!!)

Your question is confusing. You are asking me if someone who abandons the community is allowed to be part of the community. The Muslim community is exactly that - a community of Muslims. I am afraid I don't understand your question.

Yes, I am beginning to realise that the Muslim concept of community is different from my Western one.

First, I am assuming you are referring within the context of western society. No a Muslim cannot remain married to such a person because our commitment and devotion to God is paramount in this life and someone who rejects that relationship will only damage the spiritual anbd emotional health of the family.

Give me a scenario, so I can understand, please!
I am beginning to think people are avoiding my question. :heated:
Look here. Married guy with a wife and children apostates. Then what?
He has to leave his wife and children. Right?
Can he still have contact with his children? (My guess is that under British law that is his right - unless his contact is deemed inappropriate)
Will his Muslim friends, parents and wider family shun him? If so, is that their choice, or will they be forbidden (by Islamic law) to have contact with him?

You are right, Ansar Al-'Adl, I don't get your culture at all.
I have learned things about Islam in just a week or so, that I really respect, but then there are things I just don't get.
I don't think I'll even try.
In this apostast debate I see no place for compassion or forgiveness.
That confuses and saddens me.

 

[Mohammad_21]

Hi glo!!! :thankyou:

You raised some important questions.

Let me begin by saying that the posts on this thread have been very good and I think that Ansar Al-'Adl's posts are brilliant.

**********

You must understand that Muslims believe that the Quran was from God, we believe that the Prophet Muhammad (Saws) was the final Messenger, we believe in everything that he has stated, he is everything to us. As Muslims, we believe that he is the embodiment of 'goodness'. Now Shariah law has been handed down to us and we cannot change it, we cannot abandon it. That is just not possible for Muslims. It is important that everyone, even Muslims understand this point.

Now the Western World has become very liberal, materialistic and secularised (no offence), religion in the West now holds a low position (sadly), religion is always being attacked and mocked by politicians, artists, celebrities etc. The whole concept of religion is attacked by many in the West. Now in the West many questionable things are now okay, things that are Sins in any religion are now okay. (Homosexuality, fornication, pornography, sexual promiscuity) Now for people that are accustomed to and accept these things, thinking about the Muslim World would be like a bolt from the blue. Many of the concepts that most Muslims hold normal would be completely alien.

Another thing. The Shariah of Muhammad (Saws) is the middle path. As Muslims we believe that the Prophets Moses (As) and Jesus (As) came with their own laws (Shariah), now they were very different. The Shariah of Moses (As) was very 'harsh', from our sources we are told that the Believers had to give one quarter of their wealth in Zakat (Charity) and it also included the killing one's self as a form of repentance! Now the Shariah of Jesus was very laxate, the Believers then were allowed to drink, their clothes were not considered impure with filth etc. That was all permissible, there was no sin in it. Now as you are a Christian (living in the secular West), you will no doubt be accustomed to the teachings of Jesus the laws of his time and you will also be influenced by the way of life in the West now. You will no doubt feel uncomfortable when it comes to the Shariah of Muhammad and even more uncomfortable if it came to the Shariah of Moses.

I think it is important to put things into perspective.

glo, you should not feel sad.

I will InshAllah post more later on.

 

[snakelegs]

But how do I know that you are the one with the true understanding, and the others the ones with ignorance? :-\

what a great question.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello glo

That may be so. But how do I know that you are the one with the true understanding, and the others the ones with ignorance? :-\

I'm not asking you to simply trust me and accept what I say just because I said it. The research speaks for itself. Read my posts and the arguments I have presented and judge for yourself. If anyone wishes to contest the view I have presented, they are free to do so, and we can exmaine their evidence.

Give me a scenario, so I can understand, please!

um...okay. Sister X is married to brother Y and they live in britain. Brother Y leaves the religion. Brother Y is now a negative influence for sister X's faith and the faith of her children and living with him comes at the expense of her commitment and devotion to God. Sister X is to divorce Mr. Y.

Look here. Married guy with a wife and children apostates. Then what?
He has to leave his wife and children. Right?

Yes.

Can he still have contact with his children? (My guess is that under British law that is his right - unless his contact is deemed inappropriate)

I think your statement of british law is correct.

Will his Muslim friends, parents and wider family shun him? If so, is that their choice, or will they be forbidden (by Islamic law) to have contact with him?

If he is openminded and still caring towards his family they should try to discuss matters with him and find out what upset him to cause him to abandon his religion. Sometimes when an individual's religious commitment is down they need family support to bring them back again. But again it all depends. If he turns virulent and hateful, then perhaps his behaviour is best denounced through rejecting him. Either way, it remains at the family's discretion to do what they feel is best and will not increase the damage. That is my understanding of the situation.

In this apostast debate I see no place for compassion or forgiveness.

There seems to be a misunderstanding here. Islam provides absolute forgiveness. God almighty informs us that He forgives all sins (Qur'an 39:53) and no one can close the gates of God's mercy on someone. Everyone can always repent and come back to God.

Regards

ps. JazakAllah khayr br. Mohammad_21 for your kind comments; it is always nice to get positive feedback.

 

[nimrod]

Ansar Al-‘Adl, thanks for the reply, it was informative.

I have a further question if you don’t mind.

Of those who reject Islam, is there an exception for those such as those that govern Saudi Arabia?

What about the other leaders of what the western world considers “Islamic” states? Yet Islam say's that the leaders of those "Muslim" countries have left the teachings of Islam.

I hope you understand my meaning.

Thanks
Nimrod

 

[nimrod]

Mohammad_21, no offense intended but “Now the Western World has become very liberal, materialistic and secularized”. Some are saying that is the same problem with some Muslim countries.

That is where I was headed with my prior post, Thanks for making the point for me.

There is more than one way to abandon one’s faith. Which group has caused more harm to Islam?

Should O.B.L. be beheaded?

Thanks
Nimrod

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello Nimrod,

Ansar Al-‘Adl, thanks for the reply, it was informative.

I'm glad you found it beneficial

Of those who reject Islam, is there an exception for those such as those that govern Saudi Arabia?

I don't understand your question here, could you elaborate?

What about the other leaders of what the western world considers “Islamic” states? Yet Islam say's that the leaders of those "Muslim" countries have left the teachings of Islam.

We can't say that such people have become disbelievers but they are simply not implementing the Islamic teachings as comprehensively and accurately as they should.

Also, I don't think it is either relevant or useful to discuss the case of OBL in this thread; I have commented here. But I definitely agree with you about some 'muslims' causing more harm than anyone else.

Regards

 

[glo]

Thank you for all your patient replies.

 

[Mohammad_21]

Mohammad_21, no offense intended but “Now the Western World has become very liberal, materialistic and secularized”. Some are saying that is the same problem with some Muslim countries.

That is where I was headed with my prior post, Thanks for making the point for me.

There is more than one way to abandon one’s faith. Which group has caused more harm to Islam?

Should O.B.L. be beheaded?

Thanks
Nimrod

Hi Nimrod (like the name :giggling: )

I agree with what you’re saying. Many Muslim countries are becoming more liberal, materialistic and secularised. However I don’t think anyone can say that they are like Western countries, yet (no offence). I was born and bred in the West and I have great admiration for the people here, though there are certain things I don’t agree with (society) there are many, many things that I think are brilliant, things that other societies should try to do themselves.

Homosexuality, fornication, lewdness effect ALL societies however you will find that in more traditional and strict societies, (Islamic, Christian etc.) these things are kept on the ‘low’, they are swept under the rug, they are never done openly and I think that is the main difference. If I was back in Pakistan, I would not be able to walk the streets while holding the hands of a strange girl. I would not be able to kiss in public etc. That is where the secular West and other societies are different. You can see this in the dramas that are broadcasted in Islamic countries, in Pakistani dramas for example you will never see a couple kiss or even hug.

************

You are right in saying that groups have caused a lot of damage to Islam.

Should Osama Bin Laden be executed, if he stands before a court and he is found guilty then he should be. The same applies to Zarqawi, I do regard Zarqawi's group as murderers, his group has killed many, many innocent people. One thing that I will remember is how his group killed 2 Iraqi women (they might have been beheaded) for allegedly helping the Americans.

Let me give you a quote, this is from Shaykh Abdul-Aziz Bin Baz, he is regarded as the greatest Salafi scholar of the 20th Century (Most of these Terrorist groups are Salafi)

Shaykh Abdul-Aziz Bin Baz was asked, "What is the verdict concerning Jamaa'atul-Jihaad and co-operation with them?"

He answered, "...They are not to be co-operated with, nor are they to be given salutations (salaam). Rather, they are to be cut off from, and the people are to be warned against their evil, since they are a tribulation and are harmful to the Muslims, and they are the brothers of the Devil."

cassette (no. 11) recorded in the month of Thul-Hijjah 1409H (1987CE) at at-Taw'iyyatul-Islaamiyyah.

InshAllah I will be posting more soon.

 

[Mohsin]

Let me give you a quote, this is from Shaykh Abdul-Aziz Bin Baz, he is regarded as the greatest Salafi scholar of the 20th Century (Most of these Terrorist groups are Salafi)

Alhumdulillah thats a good point you've made actually. a lot of these terrorist attacks are blamed on wahaabis or salafis, but if you were to listen to the main salafi sheikhs of today, they totally condemn such attacks.

 

[Syed Nizam]

Assalamualaikum, Ansar Al-`Adl and others as well. Greetings to the non-muslims too.

This thread discuss about Apostasy and since Apostasy is the main subject, it draws to my attention on the case of Abdul Rahman, the Afghan convert to Christianity. In his case, i do believe that there are two possibilities exists.

FIRST, his conversion to christianity is strictly personal. He keeps it to himself and does not even try to DECEIVE others of converting to christianity.... or

SECOND, his conversion to christianity with a hidden agenda, that is to proselytising among the ignorance muslim. By appearance he choose to be seen as a muslim, he dressed as a muslim, he leads a way of life (at least in appearance) of a muslim where his real goals is to evangelise christianity through means of deceits....

Obviously, in my humble opinion, if he falls into the first category, there there is indeed shouldnt be any punishment for him as have been stated again & again in the Holy Quran that is there is NO Compulsion in religion. He is free to believe in whatever that he choose to believe in... But, if he falls into the later category, then i do believe that his action is certainly punishable by death.

What is ur opinion on this matter?

Thanks...

 

[Nicola]

Assalamualaikum, Ansar Al-`Adl and others as well. Greetings to the non-muslims too.

This thread discuss about Apostasy and since Apostasy is the main subject, it draws to my attention on the case of Abdul Rahman, the Afghan convert to Christianity. In his case, i do believe that there are two possibilities exists.

FIRST, his conversion to christianity is strictly personal. He keeps it to himself and does not even try to DECEIVE others of converting to christianity.... or

SECOND, his conversion to christianity with a hidden agenda, that is to proselytising among the ignorance muslim. By appearance he choose to be seen as a muslim, he dressed as a muslim, he leads a way of life (at least in appearance) of a muslim where his real goals is to evangelise christianity through means of deceits....

Obviously, in my humble opinion, if he falls into the first category, there there is indeed shouldnt be any punishment for him as have been stated again & again in the Holy Quran that is there is NO Compulsion in religion. He is free to believe in whatever that he choose to believe in... But, if he falls into the later category, then i do believe that his action is certainly punishable by death.

What is ur opinion on this matter?

Thanks...

From what I understood from the coverage I read, he kept it to himself but his family found out and reported him to officals.


Either way, living that kind of pretence life must have been hard for him. He would never have been safe or free living there. I'm just pleased he is now away from it all and able to enjoy the life God called him out for.

So Muslims can change from Islam so long has they don't evangelize? Is that even in an Islamic country?

I have read different on this forum.

 

[snakelegs]

From what I understood from the coverage I read, he kept it to himself but his family found out and reported him to officals.

i like your new avatar.
one of the worst things about this apostasy law, as well as the blasphemy laws that are in force in some muslim countries is that they are often used for motives that have nothing to do with religion. so if i have a grievance with you or want your land all i have to do is say that i heard you say something insulting about the prophet or the koran, get some witnesses to testify for me and the victim is off to jail and a possible death sentence.
so these laws lend themselves to abuse. sort of like a witch hunt.
but i agree with what you said above - if it's true that there is only a problem with the apostates if they go public then this guy should not even have been charged. but i guess it was a good way for his family to get rid of him.

 

[Nicola]

=snakelegs;283790]i like your new avatar.

Thanks..though I did prefer my old one but I had no choice in the matter. I was told, ever human image was to be removed. :?

one of the worst things about this apostasy law, as well as the blasphemy laws that are in force in some muslim countries is that they are often used for motives that have nothing to do with religion. so if i have a grievance with you or want your land all i have to do is say that i heard you say something insulting about the prophet or the koran, get some witnesses to testify for me and the victim is off to jail and a possible death sentence.
so these laws lend themselves to abuse.

I understand what your saying and I agree totaly...what better way to get someone out of the way you don't like them, than to spread lies they have insulted the prophet of the koran. It's really is so easy to abuse this law. I've wondered how this law came about. It seems like there is fear involved.

For instance in the Bible it tells us, if we add or take away from the book then God will deal with us basicaly...God doesn't give Christians permission to murdering someone for this..That kind of Judgement is up to God..because he is the only one who knows exactly what is in heart (We believe)...where man does not.
Yet allah in the koran now gives permission to kill people who insult their book or prophet.
Strange that Allah would now pass the judgement over to the people of this book, when they can't possibly know whats in a persons heart for sure.

sort of like a witch hunt.
but i agree with what you said above - if it's true that there is only a problem with the apostates if they go public then this guy should not even have been charged. but i guess it was a good way for his family to get rid of him

Well I guess he's better off now an old saying...You can choose your friends but not your family...lol at least he can have some proper fellowship now. It must have been really lonely for him. I've often wonder how many are living this kind of isolated life...and how many would leave if given that real freedom of choice.

Peace

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello Snakelegs,

one of the worst things about this apostasy law, as well as the blasphemy laws that are in force in some muslim countries is that they are often used for motives that have nothing to do with religion. so if i have a grievance with you or want your land all i have to do is say that i heard you say something insulting about the prophet or the koran, get some witnesses to testify for me and the victim is off to jail and a possible death sentence.

This is utter nonsense. I am appaled that you would just fabricate such an idea - no one is allowed to be punished in Islamic law on flimsy evidence. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh himself said that the punishment is to be abandoned in the presence of ANY doubt. So the notion that you can just bribe a few people to testify against someone is a malicious lie in Islam. Islam guarantees everyone a trial where the evidence against them is examined. If you say that you didn't insult the Qur'an or the Prophet, then unless they have concrete and indisputable evidence to prove otherwise then they can't punish you on the basis of someone's testimony. And the punishment against perjury in Islam is a severe enough deterrent to stop anyone from giving false testimony.

I really suggest that you try to learn what Islamic law actually states rather than advancing this ridiculous conjecture that we can kill anyone by just getting a few people to testify against them.