Greetings and Questions from Pmb

[Insaanah]

Re: Greetings from Pmb

May I ask whether your version an English translation or is it in Arabic?

If the English version of the Qu'ran uses the term Allah

even the Finnish version (my language) of the Quran uses word the God

Just to clarify, in case there's any misunderstanding, that there are no versions of the Qur'an. There is only one Qur'an, that all Muslims all over the world believe in and read and recite, word for word, in Arabic, as revealed by God. There are however, different translations. But they are not different versions, that might differ in teachings or might be longer or shorter than others.

Peace.

 

[Insaanah]

Re: Greetings from Pmb

If the English version of the Qu'ran uses the term Allah then that's one of the things that support their belief.

That's interesting. The bible reports that Jesus (peace be on him) cried out on the cross to God: And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").
Mark 15:34

If a different word makes them believe that we worship a different God, then using that logic, Jesus (peace be on him) used the word Eloi, so he too worshipped a different God. Do you see? It is just silly. Do they really think Jesus spoke English and used the word God?

The word that Jesus (peace be on him) is mentioned as using in the Bible, is the equivalent of Elahi, in Arabic, which means my God. We worship the same God that Jesus (peace be on him) worshipped, instead of worshipping Jesus. Did Jesus worship himself? No.

We worship the same God, that Moses (peace be on him) worshipped:

When he saw a fire and said to his family, "Stay here; indeed, I have perceived a fire; perhaps I can bring you a torch or find at the fire some guidance."
And when he came to it, he was called, "O Moses,
Indeed, I am your Lord, so remove your sandals. Indeed, you are in the sacred valley of Tuwa.
And I have chosen you, so listen to what is revealed [to you].
Indeed, I am Allah. There is no God except Me, so worship Me and establish prayer for My remembrance. (20:10-15)

@ when Moses said to his family, "Indeed, I have perceived a fire. I will bring you from there information or will bring you a burning torch that you may warm yourselves." But when he came to it, he was called, "Blessed is whoever is at the fire and whoever is around it. And exalted is Allah, Lord of the worlds. [B]O Moses, indeed it is I - Allah[/B], the Exalted in Might, the Wise."[/COLOR] (27:7-9) [COLOR="#800080"] And when Moses had completed the term and was traveling with his family, he perceived from the direction of the mount a fire. He said to his family, "Stay here; indeed, I have perceived a fire. Perhaps I will bring you from there [some] information or burning wood from the fire that you may warm yourselves." But when he came to it, he was called from the right side of the valley in a blessed spot - from the tree, "[B]O Moses, indeed I am Allah, Lord of the worlds[/B]."[/COLOR] (28:29-30) The same God Jesus (peace be on him) worshipped: [COLOR="#800080"] They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the [B]Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord[/B]." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers. [/COLOR](5:72) The same God Abraham (peace be on him) worshipped: [COLOR="#800080"]Or were you witnesses when death approached Jacob, when he said to his sons, "What will you worship after me?" They said, "We will worship your God and the God of your fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac - one God. And we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."[/COLOR] (2:133) [COLOR="#800080"]Indeed, Abraham was a [comprehensive] leader, devoutly obedient to Allah, inclining toward truth, and he was not of those who associate others with Allah. [/COLOR](16:120) [COLOR="#800080"]Then We revealed to you, [O Muhammad], to follow the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth; and he was not of those who associate with Allah. [/COLOR](16:123) [COLOR="#800080"]And Abraham, when he said to his people, "Worship Allah and fear Him. That is best for you, if you should know.[/COLOR] (29:16) Peace.;

 

[sister herb]

Yep, sorry, I meant translation, not different version. Bad English... mg:

 

[Pmb]

Re: Greetings from Pmb

Bro let me tell you something, Enlgish speaking unilingual people are stupid because they do not understand what etymology, philology and morphology is - on that basis they are monkeys mate. Unable to comprehend methodology.

Scimi

Hi Scimi. Thanks for the response. Many thanks.

I don't know whether I can agree with that in all cases. One of the people I spoke to has a PhD in philosophy, as a pastor at a local Christian church and who also teaches world religion in college. He too believes that nonsense. But I found the following and e-mailed it to him this morning. It's from a web page entitled:
Do Christians And Muslims Worship The Same God? (I couldn't post the URL because I'm not a full member yet).

The Second Vatican Council, speaking to Catholics back in 1964, affirmed that Muslims "together with us adore the one, merciful God." And Amy Plantinga Pauw, a professor of Christian theology at Louisville Seminary, says Christians can have their own definition of God while still seeing commonality with Muslims and Jews.

"To say that we worship the same God is not the same as insisting that we have an agreed and shared understanding of God," Pauw says.

 

[Pmb]

Re: Greetings from Pmb

That's interesting. The bible reports that Jesus (peace be on him) cried out on the cross to God: And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").
Mark 15:34

If a different word makes them believe that we worship a different God, then using that logic, Jesus (peace be on him) used the word Eloi, so he too worshipped a different God. Do you see? It is just silly. Do they really think Jesus spoke English and used the word God?

I don't think people here understand where I'm coming from. Of course I think that's silly. It's downright illogical in fact. What I'm seeking is a solid and convincing way to get them to see their mistake. In the case you mention, these same Christians that I know look at the term Eloi as the literal translation of God in Greek (or is Eli the Greek for God?). But they interpret the term Allah not as a translation of the term God into another language but as the proper name for entity that the Muslims worship. All that is based on ignorance only.

The word that Jesus (peace be on him) is mentioned as using in the Bible, is the equivalent of Elahi, in Arabic, which means my God. We worship the same God that Jesus (peace be on him) worshipped, instead of worshipping Jesus. Did Jesus worship himself? No.

Again, these are all things that I'm well aware of. I want to make that clear so that nobody wastes their time telling me things I already know. Please don't interpret this as impatience on my part but as a mere courtesy for the people posting here. I most certainly don't mean any disrespect by it. Okay? But don't take that to mean that I know everything about Islam either!

We worship the same God, that Moses (peace be on him) worshipped:

Not only do I agree but so did the Second Vatican back in 1964.

 

[Pmb]

Re: Greetings from Pmb

Just to clarify, in case there's any misunderstanding, that there are no versions of the Qur'an. There is only one Qur'an, that all Muslims all over the world believe in and read and recite, word for word, in Arabic, as revealed by God. There are however, different translations. But they are not different versions, that might differ in teachings or might be longer or shorter than others.

Peace.

I disagree. When others and myself mean by a version of the Qu'ran is the same thing we mean by a version of the Bible. It refers to a translation from the language the scriptures were written in into English. By different versions of the Qu'ran is meant different translations from the original Arabic into a particular language.

That's why we understand "version" to mean "translation". Didn't you gather that much from the similar use of the phrase used to refer to the Bible?

 

[Scimitar]

Re: Greetings from Pmb

Hi Scimi. Thanks for the response. Many thanks.

I don't know whether I can agree with that in all cases. One of the people I spoke to has a PhD in philosophy, as a pastor at a local Christian church and who also teaches world religion in college. He too believes that nonsense. But I found the following and e-mailed it to him this morning. It's from a web page entitled:
Do Christians And Muslims Worship The Same God? (I couldn't post the URL because I'm not a full member yet).

The Catholics worship 3. Your question should be "do Muslims worship the same gods? (plural)"

We worship THE ONE.

Scimi

 

[Pmb]

Re: Greetings from Pmb

The Catholics worship 3. Your question should be "do Muslims worship the same gods? (plural)"

We worship THE ONE.

Scimi

Scimi - Please note that I didn't come here to discuss the Holy Trinity. That's something that Christians and Muslims have had a difference in understanding for a millennium and a half. We're not going to agree on this here, that's for certain. And I'm agnostic at the moment too. I highly recommend that you find a text on Systematic Theology on the internet and read what Christians mean by the Trinity. But ask any Christian and they'll tell you straight out - They do not believe in the existence of three different Gods and as such they most certainly don't worship three different Gods.

That said I'll make this statement once and only once and then never again: All Christians, Catholics included. worship one and only one God. Just ask them and they'll tell you. While they may be mistaken regarding the Trinity it certainly doesn't mean they worship three different Gods. Like all Muslims you're confusing the trinity with polytheism. The trinity means that God has three different manifestations of Himself. Not that He's three different Gods. Do you know quantum mechanics (QM) at all? If so then there's a nice analogy that can be used regarding QM. Please keep in mind that an analogy is something which is alike in certain aspects but not all aspects.

Think of God as the superposition of three eigenstates: |Father>, |Son> and |Holy Spirit>. Then God is the following

|God> = |Father> + |Son> + |Holy Spirit>

So when God became flesh in the person of Jesus then the state of God collapsed into |God> = |Son>, etc. But again, this is far from being a perfect analogy and it's certainly not a fact. But it gives you an idea of what 3 Gods = 1 God means.

 

[Eric H]

Re: Greetings from Pmb

Greetings and peace be with you Pmb;

"To say that we worship the same God is not the same as insisting that we have an agreed and shared understanding of God," Pauw says.

If the same God is responsible for giving us both the Bible and the Qur'an, then you would expect the same kind of messages in both. The following is something I read in the Bible, but it is in the Qur'an...

Ponder over these two separate Ayaat from the Qur'an..

In one Ayah, Allah says, إِنَّ رَبِّي رَحِيمٌ وَدُودٌ
"Surely, my Lord is Merciful and Loving" (Al-Qur'an)

In another Ayah, Allah says, وَهُوَ الْغَفُورُ الْوَدُودُ
"And He is the Most Forgiving, the Most Loving" (Al-Qur'an)

In one place, Allah links His love to His mercy and in another place, He links His love to His forgiveness.

Why is this?

One of us may forgive the wrongdoings of a person but struggle to love them afterwards. Similarly, we have mercy on a person after their wrongdoing, whilst not loving them.

As for Allah SWT, the matter is altogether different ..

Should we turn to Him in remorse after sin, not only will He forgive and not only will He show mercy, but He will love as well!

That is because Allah "loves those who repent" (Al-Qur'an)

Taken from this forum, http://www.islamicboard.com/general/134330214-forgiving-love.html

(Imam Ibnul Qayyim)

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric

 

[Eric H]

Re: Greetings from Pmb

Greetings and peace be with you Insaanah;

And Abraham, when he said to his people, "Worship Allah and fear Him. That is best for you, if you should know. (29:16)

It seems that God has brought three faiths together in one place.

Abraham was said to have offered his son as a sacrifice in the region of Mount Moriah, Solomon was commanded to build a temple on Mount Moriah, to house the Ten Commandments from Moses.
Jesus sent people to give thanks at the Temple, when he cured them. The Romans then tore the Temple down the second time. It is said to be the place the prophet, pbuh, went up to heaven to meet all the other prophets. The Golden Dome of the Rock now stands where the Temple once stood.

It seems the same God brought our three religions together in one place, and linked us together with many of the prophets. It has been claimed that Jerusalem is the most fought over city in the world.

There has to be a greater good reason why the same God would bring us all together in so many ways.

[/IMG]


In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric

 

[Insaanah]

Re: Greetings from Pmb

I disagree. When others and myself mean by a version of the Qu'ran is the same thing we mean by a version of the Bible. It refers to a translation from the language the scriptures were written in into English. By different versions of the Qu'ran is meant different translations from the original Arabic into a particular language.

That's why we understand "version" to mean "translation". Didn't you gather that much from the similar use of the phrase used to refer to the Bible?

No. The Protestant Bible has 66 books, the Catholic Bible has 73. Aside from that, some versions of the bible have missing verses, and missing parts of verses. The New International Version is missing Matthew 18:11, as one example.

On the other hand, the Qur'an, in its original Arabic text, has the same words, the world over. There are no versions. There is one Qur'an and there are different translations of it.

Peace.

 

[Pmb]

Re: Greetings from Pmb

No. The Protestant Bible has 66 books, the Catholic Bible has 73.

Okay. I see what you mean now. Are you aware that the only difference in the bibles is that some of the books in the Catholic Bible are merely missing. The others are ideally identical. That's what I had in mind. Sorry for the confusion and than you very much for pointing that out to me.

 

[Pmb]

Re: Greetings from Pmb

Also I meant to say that the information between the two "versions" isn't any different other than the difference in the number of books. Personally I think it was a terrible idea to leave some books out. To my understanding it was only done so that the Bible would only say what they thought it should say and that's a terrible thing.

 

[Scimitar]

Re: Greetings from Pmb

Scimi - Please note that I didn't come here to discuss the Holy Trinity. That's something that Christians and Muslims have had a difference in understanding for a millennium and a half. We're not going to agree on this here, that's for certain. And I'm agnostic at the moment too. I highly recommend that you find a text on Systematic Theology on the internet and read what Christians mean by the Trinity. But ask any Christian and they'll tell you straight out - They do not believe in the existence of three different Gods and as such they most certainly don't worship three different Gods.

That said I'll make this statement once and only once and then never again: All Christians, Catholics included. worship one and only one God. Just ask them and they'll tell you. While they may be mistaken regarding the Trinity it certainly doesn't mean they worship three different Gods. Like all Muslims you're confusing the trinity with polytheism. The trinity means that God has three different manifestations of Himself. Not that He's three different Gods. Do you know quantum mechanics (QM) at all? If so then there's a nice analogy that can be used regarding QM. Please keep in mind that an analogy is something which is alike in certain aspects but not all aspects.

Think of God as the superposition of three eigenstates: |Father>, |Son> and |Holy Spirit>. Then God is the following

|God> = |Father> + |Son> + |Holy Spirit>

So when God became flesh in the person of Jesus then the state of God collapsed into |God> = |Son>, etc. But again, this is far from being a perfect analogy and it's certainly not a fact. But it gives you an idea of what 3 Gods = 1 God means.

Are you sure about that?

http://vigilantcitizen.com/forums/Thread-1-John-5-7-and-3-16-open-a-Can-of-Worms

This proves you wrong my friend. I am the same there as I am here, Scimitar (Timi Scar)

As you can see, the theology of Christianity is the most compromised theology of any faith group in the whole wide world.

To date, no two Christians have been consistent in explaining the trinity.

As for the theology of Christianity - that largely depends on the denomination you side with - it's a mish mash of confuddled ideas mate... my only question is:

Is God the author of confusion?

Scimi

 

[Eric H]

Re: Greetings from Pmb

Greetings and peace be with you Timi Scar;

Is God the author of confusion?

I would have to say God is not confused, but God is confusing to us. Why would the same God give us Judaism, Christianity and Islam? then leave each of us with a conviction that our faith is the truth.

I believe the answer is; that we should strive to get on with each other, despite all our differences.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric

 

[Scimitar]

I agree, my gripe is with the theology which makes a mockery of God,

I had explained to a member on VC the following just a little while ago.

I require proof Artful, proof from the written record thart hasn't been molested by the lying pen of the scribes - until you do that - I cannot take what is written in your holy book seriously because it is so compromised - I don't even know where to begin pal

To which a reply returned with:

Proof that the Trinity is a monotheistic concept can be found in the quotes of early theologians I previously shared in this thread (pg15 #148), where Trinitarians repeatedly confirm the monotheistic nature of the Trinity.
Whether God actually did reveal Himself through Jesus Christ and whether or not the Trinity is factually how we humans can get to know God, that of course, requires faith.

But like you said on pg 16:

Scimi Wrote:Conviction, comes from faith bro Artful - never the other way round in the Abrahamic traditions. Ever.​

to which I returned with:

Those theologians you quoted aint worth a dime Art, and you know it.

They've neglected to explain, in context, how God became divided into three separate and very distinct entities whilst never doing this since the creation of Adam, and the whole LOGOS argument fails because once again, your theologians have made a mockery of the term and applied it to a human being lol

Bro, you've got to try MUCH harder than this,

Scimi

See the thing is, I studied Christian theology, the variations within and the necessitating of the various denominations wihtin Christianity, all seem to disagree on points of theology.

When the anon member claims he has proof and it doesn't hold up to contextual logic, we have a massive problem with said persons ability to know how to measure a "truth".

I see things like you do - that God is wise and gave us three faiths in the same era to test us as he says in the Qur'an that HE created us as nations and tribes so that we may know each other, and not be enemies of each other - and that the best of us are those who are best in conduct, and that HE is all aware of what we do.

That to me speaks volumes, but when we are discussing theological similarities - Muslims can draw a parallel with Jews, but when it comes to Christians, both the Muslims and the Jews are left scratching our heads wondering what went wrong.., oh wait, we know. But were still beguiled, as we realize how all the corruptions entered the NT yet most Christians ardently are apposed to such views and would prefer to carry on with their bias borne of ignorance.

Can you agree?

Scimi

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Timi my friend;

When the anon member claims he has proof and it doesn't hold up to contextual logic, we have a massive problem with said persons ability to know how to measure a "truth".

I have my own profound thoughts on the Christian teachings of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but I also understand they would not make sense on a Muslim forum, so I try and avoid getting into arguments over beliefs.

I believe that truth is measured not by what we believe to be truth, but rather what that truth inspires us to do. The greater truths will lead to unity, peace, compassion, mercy and kindness.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric

 

[Asiyah3]

Welcome to the forum. I hope you'll benefit and enjoy your time here.