Punishment for apostasy

[talibilm]

Apostacy is only accompanied by death when treason is also proven.

None of the four schools of thought have (to my knowledge) ignored the ayah of the Qur'an:

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

So far, apostacy does not result in death in Islam - except and unless the apostate has committed treason as well... in regards to what is defined as treason in this instance is something which may shed light on the issue.

Treason in this case would be an apostate causing social unrest by preaching his or her new religion or causing doubt in the hearts of the Muslims with his or her speech.

In such cases, the apostate is usually warned what his actions will result in - and after the third warning... punishment.

As we can see, the apostate must want death if he or she has been warned 3 times that their actions will result in it, and the apostate insists on their motivations despite being warned.

Scimi

Salams to All. And To All UF members here especially Bro Zeeshan and I have to declare that I am doubtful on my stance about '' immediate '' death rulings on Apostasy after seeing a proof from an incident during Caliph Umar Junior ( Rahmathullahi alaihi) since we can follow those rulings upto to the Tabe Tabieen since Prophet :saws: had guaranteed only up to 2 or 3rd generation through several Sahih hadiths . so i found this incident as a clearer direction in this matter which seems to support Bro Timi scar's view.

Blood Money (Ad-Diyat)
Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 83 :: Hadith 37
Narrated Abu Qilaba:
Once 'Umar bin 'Abdul 'Aziz sat on his throne in the courtyard of his house so that the people might gather before him. Then he admitted them and (when they came in), he said, "What do you think of Al-Qasama?" They said, "We say that it is lawful to depend on Al-Qasama in Qisas, as the previous Muslim Caliphs carried out Qisas depending on it." Then he said to me, "O Abu Qilaba! What do you say about it?" He let me appear before the people and I said, "O Chief of the Believers! You have the chiefs of the army staff and the nobles of the Arabs. If fifty of them testified that a married man had committed illegal sexual intercourse in Damascus but they had not seen him (doing so), would you stone him?" He said, "No." I said, "If fifty of them testified that a man had committed theft in Hums, would you cut off his hand though they did not see him?" He replied, "No." I said, "By Allah, Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allahand His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."

So this issues needs further careful deliberation by muftis taking into account the above hadith. Since we knowthe last actions OR APPROVALS by our recognized Sahabas and Tabieens (if it does not go against the Noble Quran or hadith) will be an endorsement to the correct procedures in Islam. And from some incidents that happened during his reign and after his death we know Umar Junior was the caliph with glad tidings to jannah (allahul Aalam)

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings Pygoscelis,

My point is that you should not expect or demand it of those of us who do not believe that your Allah exists. We can't make ourselves believe Allah exists anymore than you could make yourself believe in random mythical beings.

This is where my main contention lies, though. On the one hand you acknowledge that people of faith believe based upon reasons they find convincing, yet on the other you compare this to believing in random mythical beings. When we convey our faith to you, we are asking you to see those same evidences that we do. We are asking you to employ your faculties of intellect and reason. We are not asking you to make yourself believe something at random.

We don't believe and we can't simply make ourselves believe, even if we very much wanted to (and some do). Telling us that we "reject" God or that we "disobey" God makes no sense to us, and shows a lack of understanding of who we are and what we actually hold to be true.

In the hereafter, the disbelievers will blame themselves and regret not having heeded the warnings that came to them. What goes on in an individual's heart, only Allaah knows. We are required to convey the message and what He has told us, we believe.

It almost bursts up with fury. Every time a group is cast therein, its keeper will ask: "Did no warner come to you?"
They will say: "Yes, indeed a warner did come to us, but we belied him and said: 'Allah never sent down anything (of revelation); you are only in great error.'"
And they will say: "Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we would not have been among the dwellers of the blazing Fire!" [Qur'an 67:8-10]

 

[Abz2000]

How has the message reached me ? I have never seen or heard anything that leads me to believe in Islam. I live a happy, relaxed and good life, when I do good for others its because I choose to, not to gain points for the next life, I get my rewards in this life, its a beautiful day today, and the snowdrops and daffodils are coming up, in my garden. I will take this life thanks, and you can have worry about the next.

Here you go,
http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/
That's the best i have other than good sense, additional knowledge, history, current events etc, hope it reaches you in good condition, but bear in mind that it is a translation/interpretation in your mother tongue, hope you read it and use sincerity and good sense with honesty to yourself with the intellIgence and other knowledge God has granted to you.

Just curious....do you work as a volunteer out of the goodness of your heart or do you get paid at work?
If I you get paid, do you work only for money or do you choose your field of work rationally and feel good about your job and paycheck?
Also are you aware of the motivation center in the brain which only interprets based on reward and punishment/ benefit and loss and releases dopamine accordingly? It's somewhere in the frontal region of the head and I know animals have it too but God gave it to humans for a good reason.
As humans we sometimes feel inclined to the quick rush but then there's rationality and much sorting and filing to be done, otherwise it would just be soma, alcohol, porn, masturbation and magic mushrooms.

If there was no positive motivation, we would come across a stumbling block somewhere down the line depending on how steep it is, as Muslims we usually feel the motivation to persevere 'til the end, probably a reason why most nations lacking a strong Islamic presence have fallen to userer domination, and why there was a phenomenally higher percentage of non-Muslims working for the east india company and british government during the colonization period of india than Muslims, and why Muslims in Indian congress were stronger in their convictions and more unwilling to compromise with injustice than non-Muslims were despite the awesome and unjust terror they faced - before the were separated and managed individually of course.
Muslims don't take the bait as easily, we have a strong source of motivation......no wonder the criminals hate jihadis and find the to be uncompromising in ideals.

 

[Pygoscelis]

This is where my main contention lies, though. On the one hand you acknowledge that people of faith believe based upon reasons they find convincing, yet on the other you compare this to believing in random mythical beings. When we convey our faith to you, we are asking you to see those same evidences that we do. We are asking you to employ your faculties of intellect and reason. We are not asking you to make yourself believe something at random.

Most of us atheists live in societies dominated by religion and belief in the supernatural and Gods. We have heard the arguments and seen the purported evidences and found them unconvincing, landing them on even footing with other beings we do not believe exist. In our minds they land on equal footing other mythical beings, and the only big difference is the number of people who believe them to exist. At that point believing in the one would be just like believing in the other. It would have to be by pure willpower. I say that not to offend you, but to clarify that we really truly don't believe, and that this should be recognized... and it isn't recognized when we hear things like how we "refuse" or "reject" or "disobey" a being we don't believe exists.

In the hereafter, the disbelievers will blame themselves and regret not having heeded the warnings that came to them.

If I'm wrong, and you are right, and I'm not seeing what you see, I would have to judge myself in the afterlife as having been unperceptive and blind... but not intentionally so or in any way rebellious or deceptive. No more than if the ancient Greeks or Romans were right and Poseidon (who many believed in) sank my ship at sea with a Kraken for failing to properly honour him. I would have no excuse that I hadn't heard people speak about him and what he wanted of me... but I never believed it to be real.

 

[Abz2000]

YMost of us atheists live in societies dominated by religion and belief in the supernatural and Gods. We have heard the arguments and seen the purported evidences and found them unconvincing, landing them on even footing with other beings we do not believe exist. In our minds they land on equal footing other mythical beings, and the only big difference is the number of people who believe them to exist. At that point believing in the one would be just like believing in the other. It would have to be by pure willpower. I say that not to offend you, but to clarify that we really truly don't believe, and that this should be recognized... and it isn't recognized when we hear things like how we "refuse" or "reject" or "disobey" a being we don't believe exists.



If I'm wrong, and you are right, and I'm not seeing what you see, I would have to judge myself in the afterlife as having been unperceptive and blind... but not intentionally so or in any way rebellious or deceptive. No more than if the ancient Greeks or Romans were right and Poseidon (who many believed in) sank my ship at sea with a Kraken for failing to properly honour him. I would have no excuse that I hadn't heard people speak about him and what he wanted of me... but I never believed it to be real.

What if i live in America and say i don't believe Obama to be real unless i personally meet him, would i have to abide by his laws and be exempt from taxes or would he have to meet in person each and every individual who made the claim? What? With photoshop, after effects, april fools and fake broadcasts and newspapers pushing wmd hoaxes?
Boy, God is probably gonna send yous a squad like like you sent to the branch davidians.

 

[Pygoscelis]

What if i live in America and say i don't believe Obama to be real unless i personally meet him, would i have to abide by his laws and be exempt from taxes or would he have to meet in person each and every individual who made the claim? What? With photoshop, after effects, april fools and fake broadcasts and newspapers pushing wmd hoaxes?
Boy, God is probably gonna send yous a squad like like you sent to the branch davidians.

If you didn't believe Obama existed, and was some kind of hoax, I'm not sure what I would say to you. You would still have a government and laws existing in the USA even if somebody else was really the president. If you further believed that government did not exist, I imagine it would be a difficult belief to maintain, as you'd be interacting with government on a regular basis, and this is flesh and bone people, not an incorporeal being that is said to exist via hundreds year old prophets and books. But if you somehow did believe government didn't exist, you probably wouldn't see any reason to follow the laws. You would probably eventually be arrested despite your lack of belief... and you would probably be sent to a mental hospital for help... but that wouldn't make your lack of belief any less genuine.

Is that how you see us atheists? As mentally ill? Like Richard Dawkins seeing you as having a "God Delusion" but the other way around? If so, then at least you recognize our genuine lack of belief in your God, and can stop saying things like we "reject" or "rebel" or "disobey" him.

Oh, and I haven't sent a squad to the branch davidians, or anywhere else. I don't have a squad to send. I'm not a government official in the USA. I'm not from the USA at all. I am Canadian. But, you already knew that.

 

[Abz2000]

If you didn't believe Obama existed, and was some kind of hoax, I'm not sure what I would say to you. You would still have a government and laws existing in the USA even if somebody else was really the president. If you further believed that government did not exist, I imagine it would be a difficult belief to maintain, as you'd be interacting with government on a regular basis, and this is flesh and bone people, not an incorporeal being that is said to exist via hundreds year old prophets and books. But if you somehow did believe government didn't exist, you probably wouldn't see any reason to follow the laws. You would probably eventually be arrested despite your lack of belief... and you would probably be sent to a mental hospital for help... but that wouldn't make your lack of belief any less genuine.

Is that how you see us atheists? As mentally ill? Like Richard Dawkins seeing you as having a "God Delusion" but the other way around? If so, then at least you recognize our genuine lack of belief in your God, and can stop saying things like we "reject" or "rebel" or "disobey" him.

Oh, and I haven't sent a squad to the branch davidians, or anywhere else. I don't have a squad to send. I'm not a government official in the USA. I'm not from the USA at all. I am Canadian. But, you already knew that.

Thank you, i take it you spoke on behalf of atheists and non-Muslims and therefore accept your judgements as they fall in line with the truth, if there is evidence of God which non-Muslims are hiding, and there exists a flesh and bone person to confirm it and you still deny and reject, you should probably admit yourself to a mental hospital until your madness dissipates or you will probably be severely punished.

 

[The-Deist]

How did this go from the punishment of an apostate to belief of God.

You can make a separate thread for that.

 

[Muhammad]

Most of us atheists live in societies dominated by religion and belief in the supernatural and Gods. We have heard the arguments and seen the purported evidences and found them unconvincing, landing them on even footing with other beings we do not believe exist. In our minds they land on equal footing other mythical beings, and the only big difference is the number of people who believe them to exist. At that point believing in the one would be just like believing in the other. It would have to be by pure willpower. I say that not to offend you, but to clarify that we really truly don't believe, and that this should be recognized... and it isn't recognized when we hear things like how we "refuse" or "reject" or "disobey" a being we don't believe exists.

We have to be honest; it is one thing to find an argument unconvincing, but it is another to see all religions on equal footing. As an example, you mentioned Poseidon, a figure from Greek mythology. According to this mythology, he was believed to be the brother of Zeus and Hades. After the overthrow of their father, he drew lots with them to share the universe and that's how he ended up becoming 'god' of the sea. He married the granddaughter of another 'god'. He was considered by Greeks to have a difficult quarrelsome personality. Combined with his greed, he had a series of disputes with other 'gods' during his various attempts to take over the cities they were patrons of. Already we can see numerous problems with this belief - gods being likened to human beings, imperfect and having to fight for power. When you compare that (or any religion) to Islam, you'll find an instant difference. In Islam, there is only One God, alone deserving our worship. There is nothing like Him. There are no sharers of His exclusive Divinity. He is free from any need or imperfection. There is no movement or power except by His Will. This pure, simple yet powerful creed resonates with the human intellect and stands out very clearly above the rest.

This message of monotheism was brought by every Prophet to his nation, which had the choice of either accepting or rejecting it. Likewise, if we bring this message to you and you choose not to accept it, are you not then rejecting it?

If I'm wrong, and you are right, and I'm not seeing what you see, I would have to judge myself in the afterlife as having been unperceptive and blind... but not intentionally so or in any way rebellious or deceptive.

I hope you will judge yourself much sooner, whilst you can take the right action!

 

[Pygoscelis]

This message of monotheism was brought by every Prophet to his nation, which had the choice of either accepting or rejecting it. Likewise, if we bring this message to you and you choose not to accept it, are you not then rejecting it?

Not in the sense that "reject" is often meant. I'm rejecting the claim, as I find it untrue, and that isn't a conscious act on my part. I can not make myself believe what I don't or find evidence convincing to me when it isn't. I am rejecting the truth claim being made that Allah exists. I am not rejecting Allah himself or disobeying him. It would be impossible to reject a being I don't believe exists. It would be like saying you reject Poseidon. Yes, I know that you think you have better reasons to believe Allah is real than Poseidon is real, but I simply don't.

I don't ask you to agree with me or even see me as rational in my lack of belief in your God. I ask only that you don't seek to tell me what I do and do not actually believe.

 

[MidnightRose]

Not in the sense that "reject" is often meant. I'm rejecting the claim, as I find it untrue, and that isn't a conscious act on my part. I can not make myself believe what I don't or find evidence convincing to me when it isn't. I am rejecting the truth claim being made that Allah exists. I am not rejecting Allah himself or disobeying him. It would be impossible to reject a being I don't believe exists. It would be like saying you reject Poseidon. Yes, I know that you think you have better reasons to believe Allah is real than Poseidon is real, but I simply don't.

I don't ask you to agree with me or even see me as rational in my lack of belief in your God. I ask only that you don't seek to tell me what I do and do not actually believe.

Hi Pygo,

Would you be open to the possibility that there may be some objective, observable, and measurable evidence supporting the Islamic claim that you have not been exposed to?

 

[Pygoscelis]

Hi Pygo,

Would you be open to the possibility that there may be some objective, observable, and measurable evidence supporting the Islamic claim that you have not been exposed to?

Yes, sure. I could be wrong. I am not infallible or all knowing. Allah could exist. Poseidon could exist. So could the Aztek Gods, but I would be rather shocked.

 

[Zafran]

Yes, sure. I could be wrong. I am not infallible or all knowing. Allah could exist. Poseidon could exist. So could the Aztek Gods, but I would be rather shocked.

How Posiedien has never sent a messenger, or a proof? neither has the Aztec God or the Ancient Egtyptian pantheons or the Nordaic Gods??

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings Pygoscelis,

It would be like saying you reject Poseidon. Yes, I know that you think you have better reasons to believe Allah is real than Poseidon is real, but I simply don't.

Again, I find it puzzling you claim not to see a difference between a belief attributing lowly, illogical attributes to their god(s), influenced by their own ideas and perceptions, and a pure monotheistic belief in which God is free from all imperfection and human limitation. As Zafran said above, did Poseidon send a Messenger, and do we have a Scripture surviving today that nobody has been able to challenge or fault? The two examples are not the same, for multiple reasons. When you tell us that the evidence is not convincing to you and then bring the example of incomparable theologies, it suggests an unfair and indeed incorrect analysis.

 

[Muhammad]

How did this go from the punishment of an apostate to belief of God.

If belief in God is established, everything else will fall into place, including the law of apostasy. That's why it's better to start from the beginning and work on that first.

 

[Pygoscelis]

How did this go from the punishment of an apostate to belief of God.

You can make a separate thread for that.

I agree. I had no intention of turning this thread into one about atheism. Ever since the comparison religion section was closed long ago I have tried to not make any case for atheism or any other religion. This board is basically your platform to push Islam on the internet, like an e-mosque, and I try to respect that. As one of the longest standing atheist members of this board, I now try to only interject when something incorrect is said about atheism, as it was above. But it is hard not to resist reacting to direct questions or or accusations...

Again, I find it puzzling you claim not to see a difference between a belief attributing lowly, illogical attributes to their god(s), influenced by their own ideas and perceptions, and a pure monotheistic belief in which God is free from all imperfection and human limitation. As Zafran said above, did Poseidon send a Messenger, and do we have a Scripture surviving today that nobody has been able to challenge or fault? The two examples are not the same, for multiple reasons. When you tell us that the evidence is not convincing to you and then bring the example of incomparable theologies, it suggests an unfair and indeed incorrect analysis.

Again with the "claim not to see a difference". Why are you unable to accept that my lack of belief is genuine? Would it not offend you if I insisted that you are an in the closet atheist who only goes along with Islam because of societal and family pressure? I know atheists who think that about all religious people, because they find it so hard to imagine that people could actually believe what religious people say that they do. Would you not seek to correct such people? But you really genuinely do believe in Allah, right? And to insist to you otherwise wouldn't be right.

As for the rest of what you write above.... I am trying to resist responding out of respect for the board, but since you open the door... you say that a God created the universe and that he and a book you say is from him are flawless. I find a deist God implausible. I find a perfect monotheist flawless God that intercedes in human affairs and says a particular thing even less plausible. I don't find that consistent with the world I see around me, or the science I know about the known universe. Flawed limited Gods in competition with one another would make more sense to me, not less, but I don't find that plausible either.

You say the Quran is a perfect communication from God, but I would disagree. If it was, I would expect that everybody who ever read it would be Muslim. And in fact if the God is all powerful, there would be no need for a written text, and we would simply all know he is there and what he expects of us. That we don't, looks to me like pretty good evidence against your claim. Maybe that is why you have this strong need to believe that we all believe as you do and that we pretend no to? Come to think of it, that makes some sense to me now. Thank You.

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings Sojourn,

Many non-Muslims in the West find this particular Islamic ruling to be deeply disturbing because to kill a person for exercising their free will in what they believe contradicts humanist values like the inestimable dignity of the human person, the freedom of speech, and the freedom to practice one's own religion.

Using culture or personal opinions and feelings as a standard to critique a law is very flimsy because it is not based on an objective standard, rather a subjective emotional one. As Jamaal Zarabozo put it, 'the above has been sufficient to demonstrate that there does not seem to be any logical, historical or philosophical argument that proves that Islam’s law of apostasy is unacceptable or irrational, especially when applied within the strict confines of the principles of Islamic Law.'

It is important to note that we don't live in a world of absolute freedom. Whichever country you go to, you must follow the law of that place. Regardless of whether you agree with the law or not, you don't have a choice but to follow it. In numerous countries, it is a crime to deny the holocaust. There are laws against hate speech and racial vilification. In some places, it is a crime simply to wear the face veil. Certain crimes such as treason warrant death in places like the US. If inestimable dignity and freedom of speech is your concern, this is a much wider discussion than the law of apostasy.

Whatever can be levied against the West and the United States in particular, in the end there is massive migration from predominantly Islamic countries towards secular countries in the West, which is the biggest argument for things not being that bad.

This is irrelevant. The reasons for mass migration are more to do with finding better living standards and fleeing war-torn regions. It does not mean we can now turn a blind eye to the war crimes and restrictions imposed by these western countries, or the harassment of people that goes on there.

Torture is an abhorrent practice whenever it is used and certainly no modern Pope would approve of its use. It was however as you note permitted at a late point in Christendom to extract information when there was positive evidence that a suspect possesses knowledge they are withholding

Thank you for clarifying. I’m sure you’ll agree there’s a big difference between saying the punishment was merely ‘loss of civil rights’ and that torture was permitted. However, we should realise that in the early days of Christianity, during which the nature of God was being debated, the ongoing disagreements were at times violent and bloody. Of the aftermath of the Council of Nicaea, noted historian Will Durant writes, “Probably more Christians were slaughtered by Christians in these two years (342-3) than by all the persecutions of Christians by pagans in the history of Rome” ( The Story of Civilization, Vol. 4: The Age of Faith, 1950, p. 8). While claiming to be Christian many of them fought and slaughtered one another, considering the others to be heretics. Even much later, for some years after the Reformation, Protestant churches were known to execute those they considered heretics, including Catholics.

The point though is that where we are now is not where we were a thousand years ago, and this is where we differ fundamentally. We do not believe in an ideal time period in the past that we are trying to return to. Nor do we believe that a Divine command for a specific act in Israel of 1,000 BC that was meant for that particular time and places, is some general command to be observed for all times and places. The fact is that times do change.

This is indeed a fundamental difference between Islam and other religions. The teachings that were revealed to Moses, Jesus and the other Prophets, upon them be peace, were for their respective peoples. But as Prophet Muhammad :saws: was the Final Messenger, the teachings were for his people until the end of time. That is why we have the Qur’an in its original form today, a miracle for all to appreciate. Allaah :swt: has legislated a perfect Law that is for all times and places. A Law that is for the betterment of the individual and society. A Law that covers all aspects of life, whether personal, familial life, societal roles, financial transactions, political dealings and more.

The fact that times change does not mean that our Creator who legislated our Law had no knowledge of this. All of His Commands are based upon perfect knowledge and wisdom and for our own benefit. Thus, we have no reason to reject, change or hide any of them. It is also important to appreciate that Islam allows flexibility and concession where the situation calls for it.

Religious tolerance is to be preferred and freedoms of speech and religion extolled. Society is developing and evolving. It's moving ever closer to the injunctions that Jesus uttered over two thousand years ago, which were ahead of its time then as they are now: To love your enemy and to pray for those who persecute you.

But is this the reality though? Augustine justified violence if the motive behind the violence was ‘love’ for the person or persons who needed to be restrained or punished. He cited biblical texts, notably Luke 14:16-23, to justify the use of compulsion. It seems, according to Christians, loving one’s enemy can even amount to killing him.

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings Pygoscelis,

Again with the "claim not to see a difference". Why are you unable to accept that my lack of belief is genuine? Would it not offend you if I insisted that you are an in the closet atheist who only goes along with Islam because of societal and family pressure?

I have refrained from making judgement on the genuineness of your lack of belief. The issue I am having difficulty understanding is why you repeatedly misrepresent the position of those who believe. As I said earlier, 'on the one hand you acknowledge that people of faith believe based upon reasons they find convincing, yet on the other you compare this to believing in random mythical beings. When we convey our faith to you, we are asking you to see those same evidences that we do. We are asking you to employ your faculties of intellect and reason. We are not asking you to make yourself believe something at random.'

you say that a God created the universe and that he and a book you say is from him are flawless. I find a deist God implausible.

I find a perfect monotheist flawless God that intercedes in human affairs and says a particular thing even less plausible. I don't find that consistent with the world I see around me, or the science I know about the known universe. Flawed limited Gods in competition with one another would make more sense to me, not less, but I don't find that plausible either.

Starting from the bottom... flawed, limited 'gods' go against a logical concept of God. In the Qur'an, we are repeatedly called to reflect upon the creation around us and how the interrelation between matters is evidence for our Creator's Oneness. By considering the cosmos and the world around us; the amazing interaction between the earth, sun, moon and stars to effect day and night for work and rest; the harmony of interconnecting ecological cycles and chains, all the way from cells to systems, provisions that grow on the earth or come down from the sky; how all the necessary proportions are maintained such that man's existence is neither endangered nor impossible... rational thinking points to an omnipotent, independent, transcendent, unique, powerful, wise and perfect Creator.

Flawed beings who are subject to the same processes that God created, beings who have the need for eating, sleeping and excreting, are not gods. God sustains us but does not Himself require the very sustenance He created. Moreover, reason necessitates that if there were more than one creator who created the universe it would be in chaos. There would also not be the level of order we find in the cosmos. The Qur’an has a similar argument,

Had there been within the heavens and earth gods besides Allah, they both would have been ruined. So exalted is Allah, Lord of the Throne, above what they describe. [21:22]

Next, God cannot be deist because out of His Perfection He is All-Merciful and Wise. His Mercy would lead Him to make Himself known to His creatures and provide guidance for their success. His Wisdom would also cause Him to make Himself known because this would give purpose to His creation as without knowledge of Him their existence would be all-material and therefore ultimately purposeless and in vain. Out of His Justice humans would not be left neglected without any accountability for their actions.

Then did you think that We created you uselessly and that to Us you would not be returned?" [Qur'an 23:115]

You say the Quran is a perfect communication from God, but I would disagree. If it was, I would expect that everybody who ever read it would be Muslim. And in fact if the God is all powerful, there would be no need for a written text, and we would simply all know he is there and what he expects of us. That we don't, looks to me like pretty good evidence against your claim. Maybe that is why you have this strong need to believe that we all believe as you do and that we pretend no to? Come to think of it, that makes some sense to me now. Thank You.

If God appeared before us, there would be no test and no need for the existence of this world. We might as well all be living in heaven. But we have been created for a purpose and we are required to strive. Those who are sincere and receptive to guidance shall receive it. God has made this easy by repeatedly sending Prophets and Messengers with Scriptures, proofs and miracles supporting their message. In addition, He has created us with a predisposition to believe in Him alone.

The fact that not everyone becomes Muslim after reading or hearing the Qur'an has no bearing. Esteemed members of the Quraysh who were respected for their eloquence and mastery of poetry and rhetoric recognised the superior quality of the Qur'an, yet they invented accusations such as calling it a type of magic, out of pride or fear that their people would convert. Even the Orientalists of today recognise the beauty and eloquence of the Qur'an yet they concoct explanations that echo the same desperation of their predecessors. The Qur'an itself discusses the effects it has on its listeners. For the disbelievers, it causes them despair and increases their arrogance. As for the believers, it increases them in faith and they are transformed by it. The Qur'an never changes; it is hearts that are different.

Pygoscelis, you may not find our reasons for believing in Islam convincing. You are responsible for your own choices and we will ultimately receive what our actions merit. All that I am asking is that you adopt a fair and honest approach in your appraisal of our beliefs. The above is just a brief insight into the logical reasoning, reviewing of evidences and thorough research involved for Muslims. We want you to do the same. This can in no way whatsoever be compared to the approach you described earlier: 'Think of any mythical being that you don't believe in, and see if you can make yourself believe it exists'. The call to truth involves much more than that.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Greetings Muhammad,

I have been trying not to give reasons for my lack of belief, out of respect for the forum, but you are making points and accusations that deserve a response.

Next, God cannot be deist because out of His Perfection He is All-Merciful and Wise.

So you say. Everything from earthquakes and tornadoes to young children dying from disease to 99% of the known universe being completely hostile to life make me think otherwise. If there is/are God(s), I can't bring myself to believe that he/she/it/they is/are all powerful, all just, or all benevolent to humans or life in general.

If God appeared before us, there would be no test and no need for the existence of this world.

This is where it gets really interesting to me. If God had us all know that he exists, and had us all know everything else he wishes us to know, such as what he wants and expects from us, etc (and he wouldn't need prophets or books to do that if he is all powerful - he could just make it so), are you are saying that would eliminate the "test" (which I see no reason for, but that's another matter) and render our existence pointless? Are you saying that the test is to see if we can figure out the mystery about him and what he wants? Does he intend or allows all of the strife and confusion from competing and warring religions, so he can reward those who get the right answer? Is the test about solving the mystery and not about behaving well or obeying /rebelling once we do know what he wants of us?

Those who are sincere and receptive to guidance shall receive it.

Christians have been saying this to me most of my life. I accept that both you and they are genuine in your belief that those of us who seek shall be guided to the Truth, but you and they (and earnest people from other religions) have such very different answers and what that is, and that makes me take great pause. Are your answers right and theirs wrong, and if they would only honestly genuinely seek guidance, they would be Muslims like you? Do you insist on their dishonesty when they tell you that they have spent their lives genuinely seeking such guidance? Do you insist on my dishonestly when I tell you that I have genuinely sought such guidance and have come to the conclusion that there is very likely no such supernatural guide? It seems implied.

God has made this easy by repeatedly sending Prophets and Messengers with Scriptures, proofs and miracles supporting their message. In addition, He has created us with a predisposition to believe in Him alone.

I have no such predisposition to believe in him and him alone. So again, you have to conclude that I am dishonest when I say that, don't you? That may work for you to explain me away and keep your faith strong, but it certainly does nothing for me, as I know I am telling the truth.

The fact that Gods have sent human messengers... or rather the fact that people have claimed to be human messengers for Gods... is a point of evidence that doesn't look the same to me as it does to you. I would presume that an all powerful God could certainly make me know whatever I was intended to know, and that an all powerful God would not be restricted to written word, human language, or human messengers, prone to all of the faults therein. When you show me text purporting to be from God or a person claiming to speak for God, my skeptical radar immediately goes off and I immediately have to wonder why this purported all powerful God can't speak for himself, or chooses not to; creating all of the confusion of competing religions.

For the disbelievers, it causes them despair and increases their arrogance.

Reading holy texts I don't believe in neither causes me great despair nor increases my arrogance. That goes for the Quran as much as it does the Egyptian book of the Dead or the Tao Te Ching or the Book of Mormon. These books can be fascinating from a sociology and cultural standpoint, and I have collected many of them over the years, but they don't particularly alarm me in any way. Again, do you feel the need to find me dishonest in saying that? You may be reading despair and arrogance into my words right now. I submit that you are likely to do so no matter what I say or how I say it, and you would reach that same conclusion, because you go in needing to believe that. I have walked on eggshells in this forum and other religion based forums for years, carefully measuring my words so not to give offence, and invariably somebody will be offended.

All that I am asking is that you adopt a fair and honest approach in your appraisal of our beliefs.

I have.

This can in no way whatsoever be compared to the approach you described earlier: 'Think of any mythical being that you don't believe in, and see if you can make yourself believe it exists'. The call to truth involves much more than that.

Again, you missed my point in quoting that. My point was that you can not make yourself believe something that you see no reason to believe. I know that you find your reasons for believing in your God to be convincing, and I can see that you are confused as to why I don't find them remotely convincing. That is fine. That means you have a strong faith. All I ask is that you recognize that I don't find them at all convincing, and that I am not dishonest in saying that. I may be asking too much, as your posts above show that projecting particular beliefs, reactions, and traits on non-believers may be a basic requirement of your belief system.

 

[MuslimInshallah]

Greetings Pygoscelis,

(smile) I've been reading this thread for a few days. And I wanted to say thank you for your self-restraint and your candour. As you have said, this is not easy for you to discuss.

(pensively) You know, I think you are somewhat correct when you feel that perhaps some people call you to their faith, because it might benefit them in some way- such as to shore up their own weak faith, or carve a notch on their belt for a revert (with bragging rights) or for some other benefit. I have seen such people. However, you know, there can be other motivations, too. Perhaps a person might call to you faith because they feel so good, they'd like you to share in such joy? Or perhaps they care about you, and worry that you might be harming yourself through your lack of connection with God?

(gently) Personally, I think you are a decent and good person, and I like you. And it pains me to think that you might die with a heart too tightly wrapped and bound to be able to connect with God. And that would be terrible, because then you would be so completely alone, not able to receive any of God's Beautiful Gifts (Love, Compassion, Kindness, Forgiveness, Strength...). And that, truly, would be Hell.

When we say that all humans are born Muslim, that means that we all are born in harmony with God's Will. As is all the rest of Creation- animals, plants, rocks... everything. (smile) All creation is sacred, because it echoes with God's Will. (smile) Including you.

But humans have the capacity to chose other than God's Will. (smile) And as we grow up, we become more and more able to make those choices. (smile) It doesn't mean that we wake from the wonder and awe of childhood one day and say: I reject God, because na! I think what happens is that as we grow into our capacity for choice, we can start making little choices that gradually cover over our hearts, mute our innate connection to God. (smile) There are a myriad of choices that can gradually mute our hearts. So gradually, that we might hardly notice, until one day we say to ourselves: there is no connection. And we may even forget that we ever had one.

(sigh) And then the wonders of Creation seem like flat fizzy water, the Qur'an holds no Guidance, and belief in anything more than the whirl of this life seems impossible.

(pensively) So what to suggest?

(gently) You may think this presumptuous of me. But might I request that you try something? (hesitantly) Something that perhaps will seem foolish and embarrassing, but that is private and respects your dignity (I hope)?

(pensively) You know, in the city, there is too much noise and bustle, and creation is stripped to such a degree that it is hard to sense the sacred in it. But perhaps one day, you could go out into the woods (smile. It's excellent exercise, and soothing psychologically, too)? Perhaps you could walk for a while, just yourself, and drink in the beauty and quiet around you. And then, when you feel most at peace and balance within yourself, you could call out within yourself, with your whole Self: Please Creator, Help me to feel You!

(twinkle) And perhaps you may have other thoughts. Like: I can't believe I'm doing this because some anonymous woman asked me to do so on the internet! Or: I feel like such an idiot... of course no one will reply to this! (quietly) But could you try this? Please?

(quietly) You don't have to ever tell anyone if you do. Not even myself. It would just be a quiet thing between you and... whatever might possibly exist that you are not aware of. (softly) Just the tiniest spark of an attempt to connect with God.

(smile) Even if it is only to humour an anonymous woman on the internet.


May the One Who Creates, Protect and Nourish you.