atheist logic

[The-Deist]

Evolution is guided. It is not random. It is guided by natural selection. Gene replication isn't perfect, and sometimes when DNA is copied there is a glitch and the copy fails and produces a mutation. Often these mutations immediately kill the organism (prior to birth). Sometimes they result in birth defects. Sometimes they lead to quirks such as myself being born with an extra tiny bone in my feet that had to be surgically removed, and sometimes they are beneficial. Sometimes the change resulting from the misfire of copying the DNA is small and sometimes it is drastic. If the change is beneficial to the point that the organism has greater success in surviving and reproducing, it passes that new DNA to the next generation. That is natural selection. And that is evolution at the most basic level. It explains why muscles became shaped the way that they did.

This is not analogous to a bunch of metal in a tornado turning into an airplane or a bunch of atoms turning into a computer due to being shaken around a whole lot. That analogy doesn't take any of reproduction, mutation, or natural selection into account. And that would be incredibly, astronomically, unlikely, to the point that we would dismiss it out of hand.... but it wouldn't be completely impossible. It doesn't involve logical or factual contradictions or paradoxes the way that omni-everything Gods do.



Are you saying that Christianity is untruthful unless it is agnostic?

I myself am an agnostic atheist. I do not know for sure that creator Gods don't exist, deist ones that is, but I have no reason to believe that they do.



It would be interesting to see what would happen if robots could self-reproduce and had instruction code that glitched every now and then making errors in its copying, coding for different structures within the robots. But to answer your question, the best science we currently have points at humans evolving over a long period of time from a simple single celled organism, and we then made robots, so yes. It could potentially do exactly that.



But of course you will then say that the creator didn't need a creator, right? Hello special pleading. I agree that it is difficult to fathom how something could come from nothing, but your introduction of a God doesn't help with that. And indeed we can not be sure that there wasn't always something.

You are an agnostic.

 

[Pygoscelis]

You are an agnostic.

I am as agnostic about Gods as I am about faeries or about a billion dollar inheritance landing in my bank account tonight. I don't have any reason to believe in these things, so I am not a believer in these things. A theist is a believer in Gods. I am not a theist. I am an a-theist.

 

[The-Deist]

I am as agnostic about Gods as I am about faeries or about a billion dollar inheritance landing in my bank account tonight. I don't have any reason to believe in these things, so I am not a believer in these things. A theist is a believer in Gods. I am not a theist. I am an a-theist.

You said you are an agnostic, atheist in your previous post.

Which one are you?

 

[anatolian]

But of course you will then say that the creator didn't need a creator, right? Hello special pleading. I agree that it is difficult to fathom how something could come from nothing, but your introduction of a God doesn't help with that. And indeed we can not be sure that there wasn't always something.

Peace Pygoscelis. This is something atheists generally dont understand considering the Abrahamic faiths. I dont know why..If we believed in a God which needs to come from somewhere or needs to be caused by another power you would be right in asking "so where God came from or who created God...etc."..However, we believe in The God/Allah (the God of Abraham) who doesnt need anything..any source, any cause..etc. Believing in other kind of a God is meaningless, we are both agree on that. But The God/Allah neither begets nor He is begotten..But we are right in asking where this existence come from at first because it always needs a cause. Going back to big-bang doesnt solve the problem because then I ask where did big-bang come from? If it came from something where did that thing come from? This goes on like that and you cant find an absolute cause for the existence.

 

[Pygoscelis]

You said you are an agnostic, atheist in your previous post.

Which one are you?

I am both. Agnostic means you don't know. Atheist means you don't believe.

 

[The-Deist]

I am both. Agnostic means you don't know. Atheist means you don't believe.

So you have 50/200 in belief in God?

 

[anatolian]

A Muslim is a kind of "a-theist" too. Just look at the beginning of our testimony "There is no God" but ALLAH...We firstly reject all of the false gods then declare our faith in Allah...

 

[Pygoscelis]

Peace Pygoscelis. This is something atheists generally dont understand considering the Abrahamic faiths. I dont know why..If we believed in a God which needs to come from somewhere or needs to be caused by another power you would be right in asking "so where God came from or who created God...etc."..However, we believe in The God/Allah (the God of Abraham) who doesnt need anything..any source, any cause..etc. Believing in other kind of a God is meaningless, we are both agree on that. But The God/Allah neither begets nor He is begotten..But we are right in asking where this existence come from at first because it always needs a cause. Going back to big-bang doesnt solve the problem because then I ask where did big-bang come from? If it came from something where did that thing come from? This goes on like that and you cant find an absolute cause for the existence.

The "then who made God?" response is to the "everything that exists needs a creator" and "something can't come from nothing" claims. It demonstrates a special pleading contradiction. If God always existed, then everything that exists doesn't need a creator. If everything that exists doesn't need a creator, then why can't the universe, the multiverse, or something else along the causal line have always existed? Perhaps before the big bang there was a big crunch, and it has pulsed like that for all time. We don't know. So lets not pretend that we do and make up answers just so we can claim to have them.

If God came from nothing, then something can come from nothing. And if something complicated and wonderful is especially in need of a creator, then that must apply to God, since God is complicated and wonderful. If you argue that "a computer can't make itself so a human can't make itself" .... the next line to add would be "so God can't make itself".

And on and on it goes. This is just holding a mirror up to the creationist's claims and following them through.

 

[Serinity]

Our existence had a beginning, and thus a cause.

God, had no beginning, thus uncaused. God is the source of all power.

 

[Serinity]

Our existence had a beginning, and thus a cause.

God, had no beginning, thus uncaused. God is the source of all power.

The computer had a beginning, thus a cause. Something without a beginning, has no cause to its existence.

 

[The-Deist]

I say the title and OP should be changed.

It sounds more like a degrading thread, than of curiosity and question.

 

[anatolian]

The "then who made God?" response is to the "everything that exists needs a creator" and "something can't come from nothing" claims. It demonstrates a special pleading contradiction. If God always existed, then everything that exists doesn't need a creator. If everything that exists doesn't need a creator, then why can't the universe, the multiverse, or something else along the causal line have always existed? Perhaps before the big bang there was a big crunch, and it has pulsed like that for all time. We don't know. So lets not pretend that we do and make up answers just so we can claim to have them.

But we dont say "everything that exists needs a creator" and "something can't come from nothing". We say "everything that exists needs a creator who doesnt need a creator" and "something which needs a creator can't come from nothing". There is not a contradiction in this. We exclude Allah when we say everything that exists needs a creator. Because this creator needs not to be created. Ad it is Allah. So Allah is excluded from this chain. The universe can't have always existed because everything in the universe which makes up the whole universe needs a cause to come to existence. Maybe there was a big crunch before big bang, maybe not. We dont know as you say but what we know is it needs to come from something. Do think this cause-and-effect chain goes back to eternity in past?

If God came from nothing, then something can come from nothing.

Again you fall in the same wrong logic. We dont say Allah came from nothing. Allah did not come from nothing. Allah did not come from something, He has always been there.

And if something complicated and wonderful is especially in need of a creator, then that must apply to God, since God is complicated and wonderful. If you argue that "a computer can't make itself so a human can't make itself" .... the next line to add would be "so God can't make itself".

And on and on it goes. This is just holding a mirror up to the creationist's claims and following them through.

Complicated or simple it is not important. Something being complicated or simple depends on how you look at it. Do you think a stone is complicated? Maybe, maybe not..But It is also created. Everything-except the creator himself who needs not to be created- needs a creator.

 

[Pygoscelis]

The universe can't have always existed because everything in the universe which makes up the whole universe needs a cause to come to existence.

Why?

Maybe there was a big crunch before big bang, maybe not. We dont know as you say but what we know is it needs to come from something. Do think this cause-and-effect chain goes back to eternity in past?

Again, special pleading for what you call God. If you are talking against infinite regress and against something always existing, but you make an exception for and only for God.... that is just special pleading and does not compute.

Everything-except the creator himself who needs not to be created- needs a creator.

So you are pre-defining your God as the only thing that does not need to be created. So this is entirely circular and devoid of logic. It is just a bare assertion of a claim with nothing to back it up. God did it because God did it.

 

[anatolian]

Why?

You are asking why but my friend I am giving you the answer in the same sentence "because everything in the universe which makes up the whole universe needs a cause to come to existence". Once there was a sperm and an egg cell and after millions of cause-and-effect chain "you" are here now. Do you think the universe has always existed? I mean do you think this cause-and-effect chain goes back to eternity in past? I still did not understand whether you believe it or not..

Again, special pleading for what you call God. If you are talking against infinite regress and against something always existing, but you make an exception for and only for God.... that is just special pleading and does not compute.

I am not doing it out of my own imagination. The logic requires it. The logic says that if there is a God, He needs not to be created.

So you are pre-defining your God as the only thing that does not need to be created. So this is entirely circular and devoid of logic. It is just a bare assertion of a claim with nothing to back it up. God did it because God did it.

I am not pre-defining my God. I am telling you the logic behind the belief of Allah. Are you at least agree on this? If there is a God, He needs not to be created.

 

[Pygoscelis]

You are asking why but my friend I am giving you the answer in the same sentence "because everything in the universe which makes up the whole universe needs a cause to come to existence".

Why do you presume or conclude that everything in the universe which makes up the whole universe needs a cause to come into existence?

I mean do you think this cause-and-effect chain goes back to eternity in past? I still did not understand whether you believe it or not..

I don't pretend to know one way or the other. Maybe. Maybe not. Could even be some kind of time loop. I don't know. You don't either. Can we not both admit that much?

I am not pre-defining my God. I am telling you the logic behind the belief of Allah. Are you at least agree on this? If there is a God, He needs not to be created.

If that is how you choose to define God, then sure, of course. But I can also conceive of something we may call "God" that was somehow created. Perhaps by another God or something like that. This has been the belief of many religious beliefs. Even Zeus, king of the Gods according to ancient Greek religion, was born (created): http://historylink101.com/2/greece2/creation.htm

 

[Serinity]

It is pretty simply. We believe everything is created by Allah, from every bacteria to every human, everything. and atheists believe it is 'guided' by natural selection. They just 'substituted' god with natural selection.

We say it is all made by Allah, willed etc. they say it is natural selection.

Every genetic mutation, etc. Is willed by Allah. Every disease is created by Allah. Everything is created by Allah.

It is completely logical and rational to believe in God. But your problem, Pygo, is you assume about Allah, a lie, you assume without knowledge. you then makeup falsehood, etc. But fact is, truth can not come from us. Only from God. If you don't see that, then it is time you make some dua to Allah for guidance. Sincere dua.

Our existence is proof for the existence of a creator. Now if you are going to respond with the same thing like above, don't bother.

and as [MENTION=36764]The-Deist[/MENTION] said, you sound more of an agnostic, than an atheist. to say you are both sounds like an oxymoron to me.

 

[maxmed]

Salam,
This is the first time that I have ever posted on this forum. I am a Muslim but there are some points that need to be addressed. Even for those of us who aren't that into science we comprehend the magnitude of the advances that are happening all the time from quantum physics to organic chemistry to molecular biology. Plus be mature in analyzing the information I have put forth, make sure your answer appeals to logic and reasoning and not emotions. So I begin, the theory of evolution gets a bad rep because of the use "theory" it is dismissed as simply a "theory". However, what most people don't understand is that in the scientific community a theory is a fact. To refute the theory of evolution is equivalent to refuting the theory of gravity, theory of heliocentricism (earth goes around sun) or cellular theory (we are composed of cells). The theory of evolution has reached a point where it is considered a fact and absolutely cannot be disproven. This is the case and how should we accept this reality?
I have three specific examples that support evolution since as human beings it is easier for us to comprehend specific ideas as opposed to some ideological propositions that are put forth.
1) Fish have something called a laryngeal nerve that travels a short distance and is effective. However us mammals also have the same nerve but since we have necks it takes a very long path to travel a very short distance, therefore very inefficient. Scientists use this example to disprove intelligent design and that we share a same ancestor with fishes.
2) There is absolutely no reason as to why we should get goosebumps, it serves absolutely no purpose since we don't have a fur coat. Scientist will simply say that our non-human ancestors had a fur coat and the goosebumps are contractions that raises this coat of fur and creates insulation. This keeps heat trapped and therefore keeps the specimen warm.
3) This one is truly astounding, We have 46 chromosomes but our ape cousins have 48. If we share a same ancestor than there is a problem because you can't just lose a pair of chromosomes. So scientists hypothesized that one pair of our chromosomes used to be in fact 2 pairs. If they couldn't prove this than evolution would be an invalid theory. The published research shows that our 2nd pair of chromosomes used to be 2 pair but they fused together just like they hypothesized. In fact they calculated exactly where the fusion happened on the chromosome.
So those are points I wanted to mention. They are quite troubling for a sunni muslim who appeals to logic and rationality. Please before commenting just look up some of the points and judge for yourself with a critical eye if you think there may be any conflict of some sort. Also it is important that this kind of intellectual discourse takes place especially with all the research that is going on and some of the research fundamentally goes against all abrahamic faiths.
Jazakallah,

 

[anatolian]

Why do you presume or conclude that everything in the universe which makes up the whole universe needs a cause to come into existence?

Hello again. Because I observe that with my own eyes. Once there were a couple of cells and then I came to existence. You too. Everything came into existence with at least one or one billion causes.

I don't pretend to know one way or the other. Maybe. Maybe not. Could even be some kind of time loop. I don't know. You don't either. Can we not both admit that much?

I admit it. This is what I want you to admit indeed. We dont know and can never know what was the first cause. Today we know until big-bang. Tomorrow we may know what was before big-bang. But this will never end. We cannot find the first cause by science.

If that is how you choose to define God, then sure, of course. But I can also conceive of something we may call "God" that was somehow created. Perhaps by another God or something like that. This has been the belief of many religious beliefs. Even Zeus, king of the Gods according to ancient Greek religion, was born (created): http://historylink101.com/2/greece2/creation.htm

Yes I know this is what I mean with "A Muslim is a kind of "atheist". Believing in that kind of a creator is meaningless because we can ask what created zeus? If another god created zeus how that god came into existence? This is a false God because this is a false "God idea". When we say "There is no God" but Allah we dont just reject all those false Gods, idols made of stones, or mere human beings or aliens or some powers etc. worshipped as Gods in other religions or philosophies but also we reject all the false "God ideas" human mind creates. Then we declare our faith in only ALLAH, who is superior to all of the false God imaginations.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Hello again. Because I observe that with my own eyes. Once there were a couple of cells and then I came to existence. You too. Everything came into existence with at least one or one billion causes.

Just because A, B, and C were caused by X, doesn't mean that D was caused by X. And likewise, just because A, B, and C were caused at all does not mean that D was caused as well. You yourself make an exception to your own rule when you demand that there must be at least one exception to it, at the start of it, that has always been and was not caused; The First Cause. I admit that I do not know if there was a first cause (and certainly don't know anything about it if there was one - and wouldn't attribute a religion around it or even assume it to be sentient or self aware). I don't see why you can't do the same. Perhaps that is why you are theist and I am atheist.

 

[Serinity]

Just because A, B, and C were caused by X, doesn't mean that D was caused by X. And likewise, just because A, B, and C were caused at all does not mean that D was caused as well. You yourself make an exception to your own rule when you demand that there must be at least one exception to it, at the start of it, that has always been and was not caused; The First Cause. I admit that I do not know if there was a first cause (and certainly don't know anything about it if there was one - and wouldn't attribute a religion around it or even assume it to be sentient or self aware). I don't see why you can't do the same. Perhaps that is why you are theist and I am atheist.

Because you're assuming that God has a beginning, which God has not.

The criteria for something to have a Creator is:

It must have a beginning.

Logic says that something must've come from somewhere, that everything that came to existence - whatever we see must've come to existence by someone - who doesn't need anyone to exist.

It is pretty logical to me. To me it is innate to believe in a God. you require tangible proof, if you can't see that. Then it is time you open the Quran and ask God to guide you.

There is 3 types of proof for God's existence:

Instinctive proof:

That which we are born with, we are born with the innate belief in God. We recognize our Lord, Allah. But many has been mislead by the Devil.

Tangible proof:

Things around you. Everything that has been created, etc.

There are 3 possibilites:

1. It came from nothing.
2. Made itself.
3. From someone.

1. and 2. is impossible. Cause from nothing, nothing comes. Which leaves the 3. that it must've come from someone.

Shariah Proof:

Revelation from Allah. The Quran.


To assume beforehand that there is no God, just because you can't see Him with your eyes, is arrogance to me.

In the end it is Allah that guides.

Why don't you attempt to search for God? If you say you don't need to, then what will you do when you die and find out that God exists? Allah knows best your heart. Why do you refuse to search? Read the Quran?