Evolution and Islam are mutually exclusive

[Misbah0411]

You are not here to sincerely learn about Islam so giving dawah to you went out the window. You are here creating fitnah and confusion among the Muslims therefore it is enough to repel you by any means necessary. I take the stance of Imam Al-Ghazali when spending too much time on those who would rather distract and confuse the Muslim with nonsensical arguments:

“The Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them) needed to prove the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) to the Jews and Christians, but they did not add anything to the evidence of the Qur’aan; they did not resort to arguments or lay down philosophical principles. That was because they knew that doing so would provoke trouble and cause confusion. Whoever is not convinced by the evidence of the Qur’aan will not be convinced by anything other than the sword, for there is no proof after the proof of Allaah.” (In his final book: "A Return of the Purity of the Creed" )

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

You are not here to sincerely learn about Islam so giving dawah to you went out the window.

I have learned plenty about Islam during the eleven years I've been on the forum, and I'm very grateful to the members here who have helped me on this journey and made me feel welcome. Just because I don't believe Islam is true, and therefore haven't converted, this doesn't mean I am not sincere, or that I am evil, or deserving of any other aspersions you would like to fling at me.

I am also not here presenting "nonsensical arguments". I'm simply reporting the scientific consensus. As I say, your inability to understand evolution does not alter the fact that it is widely accepted by the scientific community.

Whoever is not convinced by the evidence of the Qur’aan will not be convinced by anything other than the sword, for there is no proof after the proof of Allaah.

Would you like to attack me with a sword?

Peace

 

[Misbah0411]

"And if you obey most of those on earth, they will mislead you far away from Allah's Path. They follow nothing but conjectures, and they do nothing but lie." (6:116)

 

[soheil1]

Greetings.

There is over 150 years of research into evolution and it has long been proven that evolution is a fact. It's backed by thousands upon thousands of scientific evidences and there is absolutely no doubt that evolution happened over hundreds of millions of years and is still happening. So from my understanding of Islam, there was no evolution. God created humans as is, despite the very fact that we evolved, in fact all life evolved so how can this be? Clearly these two are mutually exclusive, the Quran says one thing, science says another.

For example we share 98% of the dna that chimpanzees have, is this just a coincidence? 69% of our dna is shared with a rat...! A rat?! This is why we test vaccines and medication etc on rats and mice because they're so similar to us.

So my question to Muslims is, do Muslims simply refuse to accept this scientific fact or do they have a different understanding of evolution somehow? Obviously Muslims don't reject science, after all we use it everyday, you're utilising about 20 different areas of science simply reading this message. So my question is, how do you reconcile the fact that evolution is not mentioned in the Quran at all and it goes so far as to say that humans were created "as is" and did not evolve?

And yes I know science cannot yet explain how the first life developed (single cell organisms) but one step at a time.

I'm not trying to start an argument or pull anyone from religion... I just want to know your reasoning for accepting some scientific facts and rejecting others.

Thanks for reading.

The holy Koran is a spiritual, holy book, not a scientific book.

Wyhen in says you are created from a smelly mud, it is more telling you to not be arrogant, that you are nothing. That "If you are there it is our work not your own work, so stop being so arrogant."

 

[Pygoscelis]

How's that deck of cards experiment working for you? Any "luck?"

I keep seeing this sort of comparison to evolution. Decks of cards throw into the air and landing randomly in an ordered set. Tornados in junkyards producing jet planes, etc. These are flawed comparisons that show the writer's misunderstanding of what evolution theory is. These comparisons omit all of the core requirements of evolution: reproduction, mutation, and natural selection.

Dog breeding is a much better analogy. From wolves we have selectively bred to create both the chihuahua and the great dane. If we keep going, is it so hard to see that we could eventually create two different "breeds" that can no longer mate with one another and produce offspring, and therefore two different species? Is it so hard to see that our guidance isn't needed to do so, and that specific environments would encourage some mating pairs over others due to survival, access, etc to "selectively breed" according to such environmental pressure? That would be natural selection and evolution at work.

It really isn't that hard to understand. It doesn't exclude the existence of Gods or any other supernatural beings. And it does not in any way address abiogenesis or how the universe initially came to be. So many creationists insist on confusing evolution with abiogenesis, and I can't tell if that is done knowingly, in an attempt to make it easier for them to reject evolution, or if it is merely the result of them refusing to educate themselves on what the two are, for fear that they may shake their faith. The former would be dishonest, and the latter would expose a very weak faith.

 

[Cpt.America]

I keep seeing this sort of comparison to evolution. Decks of cards throw into the air and landing randomly in an ordered set. Tornados in junkyards producing jet planes, etc. These are flawed comparisons that show the writer's misunderstanding of what evolution theory is. These comparisons omit all of the core requirements of evolution: reproduction, mutation, and natural selection.

Dog breeding is a much better analogy. From wolves we have selectively bred to create both the chihuahua and the great dane. If we keep going, is it so hard to see that we could eventually create two different "breeds" that can no longer mate with one another and produce offspring, and therefore two different species? Is it so hard to see that our guidance isn't needed to do so, and that specific environments would encourage some mating pairs over others due to survival, access, etc to "selectively breed" according to such environmental pressure? That would be natural selection and evolution at work.

It really isn't that hard to understand. It doesn't exclude the existence of Gods or any other supernatural beings. And it does not in any way address abiogenesis or how the universe initially came to be. So many creationists insist on confusing evolution with abiogenesis, and I can't tell if that is done knowingly, in an attempt to make it easier for them to reject evolution, or if it is merely the result of them refusing to educate themselves on what the two are, for fear that they may shake their faith. The former would be dishonest, and the latter would expose a very weak faith.

It's been covered in earlier posts.

but I'll take your dog breeding example plus the cards analogy, and I present you with this:
http://www.dogsplayingpoker.org/gallery/coolidge/img/a_friend_in_need.jpg

 

[Pygoscelis]

It's been covered in earlier posts.

It has been repeated numerous times, and I am glad to see that some such as yourself do seem to understand. But many persist in using these flawed analogies and seem to have no idea what evolution theory is other than to say that they find it ridiculous or wrong. These are the people I'm addressing above.

 

[Search]

:bism:



Before I report you, and I will, by the way, I thought I'd remind you of a little golden advice: Treat others as you want to be treated.

Secondly, I'd read what you'd written while I had just finished eating oranges and as you can imagine, your words just left a very bad taste. I never want to read the word "turd" even remotely in or near or approximating the time that I've eaten or been eating.

Thirdly, I found your words extremely rude and offensive; I've said it before, I think, but it bears repeating that religionists do some of the worst PR job of representing their religion, and it is at least one of the reasons I'd stayed atheist as long as I'd had.

Fourthly, have a little faith in the mods here: If they see anybody promoting a religion or lack thereof, they will definitely take action; and so the idea that he could have, might have, would have been promoting atheism is the one that is misplaced.

Fifthly, I like having czgibson and other non-Muslims on IB and I feel many times sadly they are more "Muslim" in their behavior than new members like you who could quite bluntly learn a thing or two about what it is to be respectful and kind and what it is to be a Muslim representing Islam.

:wa:

It exposes the idiocy of your position and you would rather be in denial of it out of stubbornness. Again, I'm where I'm suppose to be: on a forum with fellow Muslims. You are misplaced to be here. You are farting into the wind trying to convince us of your atheistic nonsense. With over 2900 posts, your like a buoyant unflushable turd that this forum cannot flush down the toilet.

 

[EgyptPrincess]

I took chemistry and biology at A-Levels and I'm going to study biochemistry at uni and there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that evolution is true and accurate. To put it simply, it's not because it "goes against the Quran" it's because it's such a crazy thing to accept for someone that has never studied it. I've not studied quantum mechanics but I know the behaviour of electrons and that the same electron can be in two different places at the same time, known as a quantum superposition. On the face of it this seems absolutely outrageous and impossible to comprehend. How can the same electron be "here" and "there" at the same time?! Well it can and it's been proven. It's also been proven that a photon is both a wave and a particle, when it's observed...

This just sounds like nonsense but it's because we have not studied it and therefore it sounds... stupid.

Anyway back to biology. There are fossils dating back millions of years which confirm evolution and you can go and see real skulls of Neanderthals in a museum. Every living thing alive today evolved, that is a fact whether you care to accept it or not but there is one key difference, we're the only living creature ever to have consciousness. Does consciousness arise naturally from the neural activity in our brains or is it something divine? I believe it's something divine. So with regards to the Quran and the creation of man, I believe that the creation of man from clay mentioned in the Quran is symbolic, to refer to us a "nothing special" and to describe the elements of which we're made. Water, carbon, hydrogen etc, as was already mentioned. If we we were made out of bismuth or some exotic element then it would be completely different.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that we evolved from ancestors and the first to evolve with consciousness were Adam and Eve. It is then that Allah revealed himself to them. Don't forget there were billions of species existing before humans existed... we're not the first creature. Allah created many species of animal before humans and he didn't give any of them consciousness. The word creation is ambiguous, it implies it was instant but consider baking a cake. You mix the ingredients and then it goes in the oven and the cake "evolves" into an actual cake we can eat.

Take for example climbing trees, if your only source of food was located in high trees then after thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of years you'd see the human body change, we'd have large hands and feet to make it easier to climb. Of course we have brains now so we don't need to climb but you get my point.

Evolution is a fact, deal with it. Denying evolution is on par with denying the Earth is round... that is how ridiculous it is in my opinion.

Lastly evolution is nothing like throwing a deck of cards and getting an ordered sequence... In the case of the deck of cards it's 1 in 52! as given by

So no, it's not impossible. Allah gave us the laws of physics for a reason. If something has a chance, then by definition it can't be impossible because Allah predefined it so. An example of something that is impossible is dropping a ball from 50ft and having the ball bounce back up to >=50ft. It's impossible! The laws of physics which Allah created says it's impossible. Throwing a deck of cards and having them land in a sorted order is not impossible because Allah has defined it so.

Go get an education, seriously...

 

[Misbah0411]

Report away. I am sure you like having the kuffar around causing fitnah. It probably appeals to your whims and desires. It is amazing that Muslims would not find an atheist words rude and offensive when it involves denying our Creator and His Lordship. I treat those people with the contempt deserving of their false beliefs and fitnah that they try to create with it on here. Perhaps you could learn what Wala and Bara is and understand that having loyalty to Allah and the Muslims is more deserving than to those who try to undermine Islam and Muslims. Secondly, the Moderators better fear Allah and understand that it is their obligation to command the right and forbid the wrong and repel those who come on this forum as a wolf in sheep's clothing and challenge the iman of Muslims by way of confusion and false ideologies.

 

[EgyptPrincess]

Report away. I am sure you like having the kuffar around causing fitnah. It probably appeals to your whims and desires. It is amazing that Muslims would not find an atheist words rude and offensive when it involves denying our Creator and His Lordship. I treat those people with the contempt deserving of their false beliefs and fitnah that they try to create with it on here. Perhaps you could learn what Wala and Bara is and understand that having loyalty to Allah and the Muslims is more deserving than to those who try to undermine Islam and Muslims. Secondly, the Moderators better fear Allah and understand that it is their obligation to command the right and forbid the wrong and repel those who come on this forum as a wolf in sheep's clothing and challenge the iman of Muslims by way of confusion and false ideologies.

I feel sorry for how uneducated your children will be. May Allah guide them.

 

[Search]

:bism:



Thank you; I already did report you as I am not in the habit of writing idle words. I can't even apologize for what I did because I believe it was the right thing to do, but I am sorry if you don't understand or cannot accept that.

If anyone causes fitna, Muslims or non-Muslims, they will be handled by the mods here - so, I'm as you may imagine not concerned about that generally.

Well, you remind me of a lot of one of our members here Abz2000, and I have never gotten along well with him and I imagine you and I are going to be at odds too if your attitude doesn't change. But the thing is I stand up for what I feel is right, and since I stand up for that in which I believe, I don't have in mind to care two cents about anything else and never have and probably never will.

Yeah, I understand wala and bara but I don't think you really do or if you do, then probably you have taken it to some kind of extremist level which I can never appreciate.

Muslims' iman (faith) is challenged with a lot of things but hopefully not with simply the breathing of non-Muslims on this wide planet.

:wa:

Report away. I am sure you like having the kuffar around causing fitnah. It probably appeals to your whims and desires. It is amazing that Muslims would not find an atheist words rude and offensive when it involves denying our Creator and His Lordship. I treat those people with the contempt deserving of their false beliefs and fitnah that they try to create with it on here. Perhaps you could learn what Wala and Bara is and understand that having loyalty to Allah and the Muslims is more deserving than to those who try to undermine Islam and Muslims. Secondly, the Moderators better fear Allah and understand that it is their obligation to command the right and forbid the wrong and repel those who come on this forum as a wolf in sheep's clothing and challenge the iman of Muslims by way of confusion and false ideologies.

 

[Serinity]

I took chemistry and biology at A-Levels and I'm going to study biochemistry at uni and there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that evolution is true and accurate. To put it simply, it's not because it "goes against the Quran" it's because it's such a crazy thing to accept for someone that has never studied it. I've not studied quantum mechanics but I know the behaviour of electrons and that the same electron can be in two different places at the same time, known as a quantum superposition. On the face of it this seems absolutely outrageous and impossible to comprehend. How can the same electron be "here" and "there" at the same time?! Well it can and it's been proven. It's also been proven that a photon is both a wave and a particle, when it's observed...

This just sounds like nonsense but it's because we have not studied it and therefore it sounds... stupid.

Anyway back to biology. There are fossils dating back millions of years which confirm evolution and you can go and see real skulls of Neanderthals in a museum. Every living thing alive today evolved, that is a fact whether you care to accept it or not but there is one key difference, we're the only living creature ever to have consciousness. Does consciousness arise naturally from the neural activity in our brains or is it something divine? I believe it's something divine. So with regards to the Quran and the creation of man, I believe that the creation of man from clay mentioned in the Quran is symbolic, to refer to us a "nothing special" and to describe the elements of which we're made. Water, carbon, hydrogen etc, as was already mentioned. If we we were made out of bismuth or some exotic element then it would be completely different.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that we evolved from ancestors and the first to evolve with consciousness were Adam and Eve. It is then that Allah revealed himself to them. Don't forget there were billions of species existing before humans existed... we're not the first creature. Allah created many species of animal before humans and he didn't give any of them consciousness. The word creation is ambiguous, it implies it was instant but consider baking a cake. You mix the ingredients and then it goes in the oven and the cake "evolves" into an actual cake we can eat.

Take for example climbing trees, if your only source of food was located in high trees then after thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of years you'd see the human body change, we'd have large hands and feet to make it easier to climb. Of course we have brains now so we don't need to climb but you get my point.

Evolution is a fact, deal with it. Denying evolution is on par with denying the Earth is round... that is how ridiculous it is in my opinion.

Lastly evolution is nothing like throwing a deck of cards and getting an ordered sequence... In the case of the deck of cards it's 1 in 52! as given by

So no, it's not impossible. Allah gave us the laws of physics for a reason. If something has a chance, then by definition it can't be impossible because Allah predefined it so. An example of something that is impossible is dropping a ball from 50ft and having the ball bounce back up to >=50ft. It's impossible! The laws of physics which Allah created says it's impossible. Throwing a deck of cards and having them land in a sorted order is not impossible because Allah has defined it so.

Go get an education, seriously...

We did not evolve from ape and pigs. Allah SWT created Adam AS, and we then descended from higher to lower forms, kinda thing.

But in the case of cards, it is impossible for it be arranged by chance. I.e. by chance itself. It is like saying bombing a building will automatically form a human being.

Everything that happens is by the Will of Allah SWT and His SWT decree. There is no such thing as chance. Allah SWT is in full control.
Everything in this universe is governed by Laws, created, set and regulated by Allah SWT.

 

[EgyptPrincess]

We did not evolve from ape and pigs. Allah SWT created Adam AS, and we then descended from higher to lower forms, kinda thing.

But in the case of cards, it is impossible for it be arranged by chance. I.e. by chance itself. It is like saying bombing a building will automatically form a human being.

Everything in this universe is governed by Laws, created, set and regulated by Allah SWT.

I just showed you it's not impossible for it to fall into an arranged deck. Do you not listen?!

Consider the following example.

Flipping a coin to land on heads once is possible correct? How about two times in a row? Three times in a row? Four times? At what point does it become "impossible"? Is it impossible to flip a coin 1million times and it lands on heads every time?

The word you're looking for is improbable, not impossible.

Coin flipping probability. (20 flips)

1) Heads = 1/2
2) Heads = 1/4
3) Heads = 1/8
4) Heads = 1/16
...
...
...
20) Heads = 1/1,048,576

So as long as the chance exists then it's not impossible, it just gets increasing more difficult due to ever lowering odds. You're 17 correct? did you study mathematics at school? It would seem like you just don't understand probability, like at all...


How about we try something more primitive for you. People win the euromillions, the probability of winning the euromillions is 1 in 116,531,800, yet people still win. If the probably was 1 in 7,000,000,000 (7billion) then it would still likely be won if each person in the world played a ticket. If the odds were 1 in 500quintillion, it would still be one.... eventually.

 

[Serinity]

I just showed you it's not impossible for it to fall into an arranged deck. Do you not listen?!

Consider the following example.

Flipping a coin to land on heads once is possible correct? How about two times in a row? Three times in a row? Four times? At what point does it become "impossible"? Is it impossible to flip a coin 1million times and it lands on heads every time?

The word you're looking for is improbable, not impossible.

Coin flipping probability. (20 flips)

1) Heads = 1/2
2) Heads = 1/4
3) Heads = 1/8
4) Heads = 1/16
...
...
...
20) Heads = 1/1,048,576

So as long as the chance exists then it's not impossible, it just gets increasing more difficult due to ever lowering odds. You're 17 correct? did you study mathematics at school? It would seem like you just don't understand probability, like at all...

To us it may be chance, to Allah SWT it isn't.

If I throw a coin, the probability of it being a head is 1/2. Why? because there is 2 sides and we don't know the unseen. But from Allah SWT, Allah SWT already knows the outcome, there is no chance, the amount of heads is already willed and decreed by Allah SWT.

So because we don't know the unseen, it is seen as 'chance'. But from Allah SWT's perspective, as He SWT is all - knowing, etc. Nothing is by chance. Everything is decreed and willed by Allah SWT. There is no chance or luck. It only appears to us like that cuz we don't know the unseen.
To say otherwise would imply a deficiency in Allah SWT's power, which could NEVER be.

Everything is governed by the Laws of Allah SWT, and how He SWT decrees and wills. Chance has no room in it, there is NO chance. IT only appears to us because we don't know the unseen. But in actual fact, there is no such thing as chance cause everything is decreed by Allah SWT in the first place.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

But in the case of cards, it is impossible for it be arranged by chance. I.e. by chance itself. It is like saying bombing a building will automatically form a human being.

Your continued misunderstanding of how chance plays a part in evolution is one thing, but in a separate matter, you should know that what you say here about the impossibility of a deck of cards being arranged in order by chance is straightforwardly wrong. The probability of it occurring is very low, but it is not impossible; this is a simple fact of mathematics. As Egypt Princess said above, the probability is 1/52 factorial.

Peace

 

[EgyptPrincess]

To us it may be chance, to Allah SWT it isn't.

If I throw a coin, the probability of it being a head is 1/2. Why? because there is 2 sides and we don't know the unseen. But from Allah SWT, Allah SWT already knows the outcome, there is no chance, the amount of heads is already willed and decreed by Allah SWT.

To say otherwise would imply a deficiency in Allah SWT's power, which could NEVER be.

Yes and I agree but what the OP said is that you, little old serinity, a mere mortal is trying to say that Allah won't allow the deck of cards to fall in an ordered sequence... How can you elude to know what Allah will or will not do? @Lucozade has a point. Who do you think you are to know what Allah will and will not allow?

Allah created the laws of physics and in those laws, it says something is possible, therefore it's possible. End of story. I honestly don't mean to be rude but you really are quite uneducated for a man of your age... No offence

 

[Serinity]

Yes and I agree but what the OP said is that you, little old serinity, a mere mortal is trying to say that Allah won't allow the deck of cards to fall in an ordered sequence... How can you elude to know what Allah or Allah will not do? @Lucozade has a point. Who do you think you are to know what Allah will and will not allow?

Allah created the laws of physics and in those laws, it says something is possible, therefore it's possible. End of story. I honestly don't mean to be rude but you really are quite uneducated for a man of your age... No offence

By Allah SWT's will yes, it could happen, but by Chance? No. It only appears to us cuz we don't know the unseen. So for us it is chance, but in fact it is not.

nothing can happen by chance, ever.

 

[EgyptPrincess]

By Allah SWT's will yes, it could happen, but by Chance? No.

Finally... we're making progress.

 

[Serinity]

Finally... we're making progress.

The problem here is that they say it could come from chance. Nothing can come from chance, ever. It is by the decree of Allah SWT.

I know math, and I get it. But chance ? There is no such thing as chance. It appears to us like that because we don't know the unseen. But in fact it is not by chance. Ever. It is by the Will and decree of Allah SWT.

The 6th article of faith is Qadr:

1. Allah SWT knows everything.
2. Everything is written in the book of Decrees.
3. Everything is willed and decreed by Allah.
4. Allah SWT created everything.

So there is no chance, there is only the Decree of Allah SWT. Allah SWT is the sole ruler.