Evolution and Islam are mutually exclusive

[EgyptPrincess]

The problem here is that they say it could come from chance. Nothing can come from chance, ever. It is by the decree of Allah SWT.

I know math, and I get it. But chance ? There is no such thing as chance. It appears to us like that because we don't know the unseen. But in fact it is not by chance. Ever. It is by the Will and decree of Allah SWT.

Then what you should have said is "a deck of cards can fall into an ordered deck as long as Allah wills it" You flat out said it's impossible... One could interpret that as saying "Allah doesn't have the ability to make them fall into an ordered deck"

Do you now understand why I was getting so frustrated with you? Throwing a deck of cards across the room and having them land in an ordered deck is possible, just incredibly incredibly unlikely. You'd need many many attempts before it happened.

Try it yourself Take a coin and try to get heads 10 times in a row it will happen, it just might take a few tries. Approximately 1024 tries ;D

 

[Serinity]

Then what you should have said is "a deck of cards can fall into an ordered deck as long as Allah wills it" You flat out said it's impossible... One could interpret that as saying "Allah doesn't have the ability to make them fall into an ordered deck"

Do you now understand why I was getting so frustrated with you? Throwing a deck of cards across the room and having them land in an ordered deck is possible, just incredibly incredibly unlikely. You'd need many many attempts before it happened.

Try it yourself Take a coin and try to get heads 10 times in a row it will happen, it just might take a few tries. Approximately 1024 tries ;D

you are over intepretating and putting words in my mouth. I never said that it could not happen if Allah SWT willed it, audhu billah.

But it could never happen solely by chance, ever. So no, it is not possible, except by the will of Allah SWT. It'd require a conscious will to do so. I don't believe in chance. It only appears to us like that.

There is no such thing as chance. Ultimately it is Allah SWT that decrees. And Allah SWT is the sole decider of whether it'd be head or tail. There is no chance involved

So no, it is not possible for a deck of cards to arrange in numerical order by chance alone.

 

[EgyptPrincess]

you are over intepretating and putting words in my mouth. I never said that it could not happen if Allah SWT willed it, audhu billah.

Fact is, the deck experiment will NEVER succeed, and it is stupid to rely on chance. It is blind faith, Wallah.

Anyways, I ain't going to in this debate.

Please don't lie bro. You said it clearly that to throw a deck of cards and have them land in order is impossible. Also you keep saying things like "rely on chance" but then you later say you don't believe chance exists... so which is it?

Why would you say to "rely on chance" when chance does not exist? :facepalm:

 

[Serinity]

Please don't lie bro. You said it clearly that to throw a deck of cards and have them land in order is impossible. Also you keep saying things like "rely on chance" but then you later say you don't believe chance exists... so which is it?

Why would you say to "rely on chance" when chance does not exist? :facepalm:

Nothing is by chance, cause Allah SWT is the sole ruler, the One who decrees, and wills everything. Because we don't know the unseen, it appears to be chance for us, but it is not, cause everything is by the will of Allah SWT.st

Twisting my words huh? yes I said that it will never succeed by chance. It will never ever. Only by the will of Allah SWT. But here we are speaking of chance, in which case it will never.

Anyways, everything is decreed by Allah SWT. There is no such thing as chance, or luck. To believe in chance can be kufr. Cause everything is determined by Allah SWT. It appears to us to be chance, but it isn't.

Chance doesn't exist. Everything is decreed by Allah SWT. That is my stance.

 

[Serinity]

Please don't lie bro. You said it clearly that to throw a deck of cards and have them land in order is impossible. Also you keep saying things like "rely on chance" but then you later say you don't believe chance exists... so which is it?

Why would you say to "rely on chance" when chance does not exist? :facepalm:

What are you saying? I never said "rely on chance" and are you implying Allah SWT is chance? Audhu billah.

I said it could happen if Allah SWT willed it. Nothing to do with chance.

At the end of the day everything is decreed by Allah SWT. Not chance. To say so would be setting up a partner with Allah SWT. Audhu billah, far above is He SWT from that.

you are the one lying about me.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you czgibson;

Scientists such as Copernicus and Galileo were persecuted by the Inquisition of Rome for promoting heliocentrism, because of its contradiction of statements in the Bible, such as 1 Chronicles 16:30, Psalms 104:5 and Ecclesiastes 1:5, that we now know to be untrue.

I think the prophets of two - three thousand years ago had a dilemma, should they offer a spiritual message or a message of science? Imagine a prophet saying to a group of scholars at the time, what you see is an illusion, we are not stood still in this place, rather we are hurtling through space at 67,000 mph on a giant ball, that is spinning round like a top, at a 1,000 miles mph. Further more, there are people in Australia who think they are standing the right way up, when in fact they are stood upside down underneath this ball. Fortunately there is gravity says the prophet.

And the people would say, where is your evidence for this? From what we know of man's understanding 3,000 years ago, it would seem beyond their comprehension.

If the prophet then tried to follow this science with a spiritual message, he would probably be laughed out of town.

From my understanding of God, he came to give us a spiritual message, rather than one of science.

In the Spirit of praying for justice for all people.

Eric

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Greetings and peace be with you czgibson;

Hi Eric. I hope you are well.

I think the prophets of two - three thousand years ago had a dilemma, should they offer a spiritual message or a message of science? Imagine a prophet saying to a group of scholars at the time, what you see is an illusion, we are not stood still in this place, rather we are hurtling through space at 67,000 mph on a giant ball, that is spinning round like a top, at a 1,000 miles mph.

I think it would be extraordinary, and rather a convincing example of knowledge being transmitted by supernatural means if prophets had announced facts like these before the invention of the telescope. Instead, they just made things up and made false statements about the natural world, in amongst whatever moral or theological teachings they wanted to deliver.

And what service did they do humanity by making things up? For centuries, ordinary people could be persecuted and sometimes even executed for questioning some of the falsehoods contained in the Bible. It would have been better for everybody if the prophets hadn't bothered to include them.

And the people would say, where is your evidence for this? From what we know of man's understanding 3,000 years ago, it would seem beyond their comprehension.

If the prophet then tried to follow this science with a spiritual message, he would probably be laughed out of town.

Fear of being laughed out of town didn't stop St. John the Divine from producing the hallucinogenic nightmare of nonsense that is the book of Revelation, did it?

From my understanding of God, he came to give us a spiritual message, rather than one of science.

Wouldn't it have been amazing if the Bible contained more actual scientific knowledge, though, instead of obviously false statements that insult the intelligence of the reader?

Peace

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

Dog breeding is a much better analogy. From wolves we have selectively bred to create both the chihuahua and the great dane. If we keep going, is it so hard to see that we could eventually create two different "breeds" that can no longer mate with one another and produce offspring, and therefore two different species?

We understand what you are saying, this could produce cosmetically altered new breeds. But could this result in a breed called danchichuah, with two heads, four eyes, two mouths, four legs and four fins. The advantages would be all round vision, it can eat more in less time, and it would be better suited to hunt for fish as well.

Evolution does not appear to have the mechanisms for radical change.

In the spirit of searching for justice and God

Eric

 

[EgyptPrincess]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;



We understand what you are saying, this could produce cosmetically altered new breeds. But could this result in a breed called danchichuah, with two heads, four eyes, two mouths, four legs and four fins. The advantages would be all round vision, it can eat more in less time, and it would be better suited to hunt for fish as well.

Evolution does not appear to have the mechanisms for radical change.

In the spirit of searching for justice and God

Eric

Animals do not evolve more than they have to. A bird doesn't have any arms because it just doesn't require them to survive... If an animal requires a function to survive then it will develop said function or go extinct.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you EgyptPrincess;

Animals do not evolve more than they have to. A bird doesn't have any arms because it just doesn't require them to survive.

You could also say, that fish did not need legs to survive, however, fish seemed to have evolved legs anyway.

Blessings,

Eric

 

[Pygoscelis]

Evolution does not appear to have the mechanisms for radical change.

How do you define "radical change"? The difference between a chihuahua and a great dane seems pretty radical to me. Or how about tadpoles and frogs? One breathes under water with gills. The other needs air to breathe. One becomes the other in different stages of the life cycle.

 

[EgyptPrincess]

Greetings and peace be with you EgyptPrincess;



You could also say, that fish did not need legs to survive, however, fish seemed to have evolved legs anyway.

Blessings,

Eric

The word survive needs to be clearly defined. a fish that absolutely does not require the need to go on land will never develop feet because it simply has no need for them but some fish would have been present in and around reefs and shallow waters such that they may have often found themselves caught on rocks or islands when the tides went out.

Here is an example of a fish with "feet".

Also known as a Mudskipper

I quick look at the wiki says they inhabit mudflats of East Africa, Madagascar and a few other areas. Most likely their environment was lakes and rivers but as these lakes and rivers dried up over time, they're forced onto land to search for food and so their fins have evolved more into "arms" or "feet" which help them navigate their habitat.

I've not done any research into this of course so don't take my word for it. You'd have to spend some time and research this animal, something I'm not going to do at 1:15am

 

[Misbah0411]

:bism:



I could care less that you reported me. You really are full of yourself. Go eat another orange. It's good for you.

Thank you; I already did report you as I am not in the habit of writing idle words. I can't even apologize for what I did because I believe it was the right thing to do, but I am sorry if you don't understand or cannot accept that.

If anyone causes fitna, Muslims or non-Muslims, they will be handled by the mods here - so, I'm as you may imagine not concerned about that generally.

Well, you remind me of a lot of one of our members here Abz2000, and I have never gotten along well with him and I imagine you and I are going to be at odds too if your attitude doesn't change. But the thing is I stand up for what I feel is right, and since I stand up for that in which I believe, I don't have in mind to care two cents about anything else and never have and probably never will.

Yeah, I understand wala and bara but I don't think you really do or if you do, then probably you have taken it to some kind of extremist level which I can never appreciate.

Muslims' iman (faith) is challenged with a lot of things but hopefully not with simply the breathing of non-Muslims on this wide planet.

:wa:

I could care less that you reported me. You really are full of yourself. Go eat another orange. It's good for you.

 

[keiv]

Greetings.

There is over 150 years of research into evolution and it has long been proven that evolution is a fact. It's backed by thousands upon thousands of scientific evidences and there is absolutely no doubt that evolution happened over hundreds of millions of years and is still happening. So from my understanding of Islam, there was no evolution. God created humans as is, despite the very fact that we evolved, in fact all life evolved so how can this be? Clearly these two are mutually exclusive, the Quran says one thing, science says another.

For example we share 98% of the dna that chimpanzees have, is this just a coincidence? 69% of our dna is shared with a rat...! A rat?! This is why we test vaccines and medication etc on rats and mice because they're so similar to us.

So my question to Muslims is, do Muslims simply refuse to accept this scientific fact or do they have a different understanding of evolution somehow? Obviously Muslims don't reject science, after all we use it everyday, you're utilising about 20 different areas of science simply reading this message. So my question is, how do you reconcile the fact that evolution is not mentioned in the Quran at all and it goes so far as to say that humans were created "as is" and did not evolve?

And yes I know science cannot yet explain how the first life developed (single cell organisms) but one step at a time.

I'm not trying to start an argument or pull anyone from religion... I just want to know your reasoning for accepting some scientific facts and rejecting others.

Thanks for reading.

Problem, for you anyways, is that no matter how many times you say "fact", evolution in the sense of us changing from one species to another isnot a fact. Also, why should we put our faith in science when you even admit that it cannot explain how the first life developed but Islam can? Some of the things that science can't explain has already been explained in Islam. it seems like science is slow to catch up. Thanks but, you stick to your beliefs, I'll stick to mine.

 

[Serinity]

Relying on chance can be shirk. Afaik. Cause the only One who determines and decides is Allah SWT, not chance, ever. Allahu alam.

relying on chance is no difference from hoping fairy dust to appear by rubbing sand.. Blind faith.

 

[Pygoscelis]

^ Is this a muslim argument against free will? Allah determines all so we have no real free will?

 

[Search]

:bism:



Thanks for the advice.

That said, I don't have much to add here except that for some reason the quoted post is incorrectly quoted as it shows your own words as mine and therefore I wanted to set the record straight that I did not author the first line that the quoted post shows.

That said, I don't know whether I am full of myself or not; if I am, then may Allah forgive me. Also, again, I emphasize I only tried to do what was right and my intent was not to insult you nor cause any injury to you. If I did either, then I apologize to you.

And while I admit I enjoy oranges, I'd enjoy and appreciate more a goodwill gesture from you that would hopefully from now onward include the act of refraining from being offensive or rude or insulting towards other members because I know you know better than to behave that way as a Muslim.

:wa:

I could care less that you reported me. You really are full of yourself. Go eat another orange. It's good for you.

 

[Cpt.America]

Well that escalated quickly.

Mods, can we please close this thread?

OP is a nonmuslim and he asked an honest question that I believe has received some honest replies.
But the thread is now falling into members personally quarreling with and insulting other members (and OP himself), none of which shows good akhlaq (good manners) or is constructive in any way.


plus I posted a picture of dogs playing poker which has nothing to do with anything but is still pretty awesome, so I'm pretty sure everyone here is off topic at this point.


To the OP: sorry for the mess. I hope your curiosity has been satiated (and also your love for novelty paintings depicting anthropomorphazised animals doing human things (because we all love that lol))

 

[Abz2000]

This thread appears to have started off educational and inspiring positive discussion, it somehow turned into a competition and in these situations it sometimes happens that people dig in and become stubborn on their opinions, the op's post seemed respectful and brought forth questions that provoke positive discussion, let's try looking at merits of the topic's discussion points instead of becoming the ones to put forth irrational arguments, let's leave that for those who make comparisons with flying spagetti monsters etc (wink wink buddy )



1.*He frowned and turned away,
2.*Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting).
3.*But what could tell thee but that perchance he might grow?
4.*Or that he might receive admonition, and the teaching might profit him?
5.*As to one who regards Himself as self-sufficient,
6.*To him dost thou attend;
7.*Though it is no blame to thee if he grow not.
8.*But as to him who came to thee striving earnestly,
9.*And with fear (in his heart),
10.*Of him wast thou unmindful.
11.*By no means (should it be so)! For it is indeed a Message of instruction:
12.*Therefore let whoso will, keep it in remembrance.
13.*(It is) in Books held (greatly) in honour,
14.*Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy,
15.*(Written) by the hands of scribes-
16.*Honourable and Pious and Just.
17.*Woe to man! What hath made him reject Allah.
18.*From what stuff hath He created him?
19.*From a sperm-drop: He hath created him, and then mouldeth him in due proportions;
20.*Then doth He make His path smooth for him;
21.*Then He causeth him to die, and putteth him in his grave;
22.*Then, when it is His Will, He will raise him up (again).
23.*By no means hath he fulfilled what Allah hath commanded him.
24.*Then let man look at his food, (and how We provide it):
25.*For that We pour forth water in abundance,
26.*And We split the earth in fragments,
27.*And produce therein corn,
28.*And Grapes and nutritious plants,
29.*And Olives and Dates,
30.*And enclosed Gardens, dense with lofty trees,
31.*And fruits and fodder,
32.*For use and convenience to you and your cattle.
33.*At length, when there comes the Deafening Noise,
34.*That Day shall a man flee from his own brother,
35.*And from his mother and his father,
36.*And from his wife and his children.
37.*Each one of them, that Day, will have enough concern (of his own) to make him indifferent to the others.
38.*Some faces that Day will be beaming,
39.*Laughing, rejoicing.
40.*And other faces that Day will be dust-stained,
41.*Blackness will cover them:
42.*Such will be the Rejecters of Allah, the doers of iniquity.

 

[Serinity]

#Close Thread

#SpaghettiMonster