Morality & Obedience

[Pygoscelis]

but say a murderer who is not a Prophet, goes and kills innocent people for no reason, and says "God told me" is a liar.

Can't they just be wrong? Just because somebody thinks God told them something doesn't mean that God actually did, even if there is a God that could. And just because somebody holds a religious belief, doesn't mean that it is true (especially if it conflicts with your true Islamic belief, right?). Or do you believe that every non-muslim, every Christian, every Jew, every Hindu, every ancient believer in the Roman, Egyptian, Norse, Aztek, etc Gods, are all just liars?

 

[Serinity]

Can't they just be wrong? Just because somebody thinks God told them something doesn't mean that God actually did, even if there is a God that could. And just because somebody holds a religious belief, doesn't mean that it is true (especially if it conflicts with your true Islamic belief, right?). Or do you believe that every non-muslim, every Christian, every Jew, every Hindu, every ancient believer in the Roman, Egyptian, Norse, Aztek, etc Gods, are all just liars?

they are wrong and liars.

See, God only forbids what is wrong, it is forbidden because in God's wisdom it is wrong. people can't go and legalize and illegalize as they want.

Now you may think: "but there are people who go "I kill innocents cuz God told me" "
Those who disbelieve in Islam, follow falsehood, and those who believe follow the truth from their Lord.

They take their desires as God, and misguide others.

You have to understand that God does NOT speak to mere mortals.

There is no God besides Allah, some lie about Allah, etc. speaking without knowledge.-

I advice you one thing: Do not speak from your desires or imagination. Please stop confusing yourself with imaginations. Try to look at what is, rather than what ifs.

Just don't believe everyone who says "I do it cuz God said so"

 

[Pygoscelis]

they are wrong and liars.

See, God only forbids what is wrong, it is forbidden because in God's wisdom it is wrong. people can't go and legalize and illegalize as they want.

Now you may think: "but there are people who go "I kill innocents cuz God told me" "
Those who disbelieve in Islam, follow falsehood, and those who believe follow the truth from their Lord.

Following falsehood and knowingly following falsehood are not the same thing. Only the second is dishonesty and being a liar. The first is just being wrong.

Are you really saying that every non-muslim is the second? A liar? You think that we all believe as you do, and just lie about it and knowingly follow faslehood? You say this of the majority of humans that ever lived? Or am i misunderstanding you?

 

[Serinity]

Following falsehood and knowingly following falsehood are not the same thing. Only the second is dishonesty and being a liar. The first is just being wrong.

Are you really saying that every non-muslim is the second? A liar? You think that we all believe as you do, and just lie about it and knowingly follow faslehood? You say this of the majority of humans that ever lived? Or am i misunderstanding you?

I am not saying every non muslim is a liar, no. What I am saying that anyone who doesn't follow Islam, follows falsehood. Or in other words, those who disbelieve in Islam (Truth) follow falsehood.

For if you disbelieve in truth one must follow falsehood. Pretty logical. for if one disbelieves in truth, one must believe in other than that, which is false. Cause there can only be 1 truth.

There are those who say about God, that which they don't have any knowledge about, I ask them "Bring me your proof, or a criterion from God, that says what you say, otherwise you are liars" and they of what they say of falsehood about God, are liars.

They may not mean to lie, but whether one realises they are lying or not, does that really matter? One is basically lying. However knowingly lying, is worse.

It is not wise to say about God, what one has no knowledge of.

The more I read your posts, the more I see you just confused. may Allah guide you.Ameen.

I don't know you, but I see you confused. why not take as step towards God, and try searching for Him, without assuming from ignorance?

you don't know about God. I only know of Him, from what He revealed Himself. If I was to ever speak of God, of that which I've no proof, I'd be damned.

you don't need to search every religion. you just search for God first, and He Himself will guide you to His religion, Islam.

 

[Pygoscelis]

They may not mean to lie, but whether one realises they are lying or not, does that really matter?

Yes, of course it matters. If somebody is following falsehood unintentionally, without knowing it, they are not lying. They are mistaken. And being mistaken, they believe just as strongly as you do that they know and understand who God is and what God wants. You will say they are wrong, because they are not proper Muslims like you are, and that's fine. But as we saw above in this thread, there are plenty of people who will obey God and do seemingly horrible things (one fellow said he would kill his brother) because they trust God has some higher purpose that makes it all ok. Since your God exists (I am forced by the forum moderator to say) then in your case it isn't a big deal. But the false follower's god doesn't exist, as we both agree, so they will do the seemingly, and indeed horrible thing and there will be no "higher purpose" to excuse it. They have become an agent of evil because of their belief and obedience in what they think is God.

 

[Serinity]

Yes, of course it matters. If somebody is following falsehood unintentionally, without knowing it, they are not lying. They are mistaken. And being mistaken, they believe just as strongly as you do that they know and understand who God is and what God wants. You will say they are wrong, because they are not proper Muslims like you are, and that's fine. But as we saw above in this thread, there are plenty of people who will obey God and do seemingly horrible things (one fellow said he would kill his brother) because they trust God has some higher purpose that makes it all ok. Since your God exists (I am forced by the forum moderator to say) then in your case it isn't a big deal. But the false follower's god doesn't exist, as we both agree, so they will do the seemingly, and indeed horrible thing and there will be no "higher purpose" to excuse it. They have become an agent of evil because of their belief and obedience in what they think is God.

you are being subjective about this, you are trying to say that obedience to God could possibly be immoral, it can not. Besides, God does NOT speak to mere mortals.

So what is your point? That obeying God could be immoral, evil? I disagree, rather they say with their mouths, but they lie, they say "I do evil for God" but they lie.

Whatever Allah :swt: commands in The Qur'an we say "we hear and obey" to.

God only order righteousness, so for one to do immorality in the name of God, is a fallacy, they are lying. They have taken THEIR desires as GOD.

I don't think you will understand this before you find God yourself. People invent falsehood, and call upon false deities, and speak of God what they have no knowledge of.

As A Muslim, my belief in God, does NOT stem from imagination, and I did NOT just start believing. It is because I am convinced that someone made this World.

However, can I go and tell people what God wants and doesn't want, without proof from His book? No. I am not a Prophet, and there are no Prophets coming anymore.

So your point is mute, God doesn't speak to people. If anyone hears voices they need to see the psychiatrist, fast.

They've taken their oaths as cover. We know one of the attributes of God is All-Wise, so it would be UNWISE to go against any decision from God, and IGNORANT, as God is All-Knowing.

BUT That doesn't mean people can use the name of God and command people to do things and say "God says so" without proof from The Qur'an as they are NOT prophets.

I honestly feel you are confused. Find God first and then come back.

 

[Muezzin]

Aside from whether or not this kind of slaughter is the most humane, this sort of logic I quoted of you is the kind of religious logic that scares me the most. What if it was human suffering you thought to be ordained by God? Would you still be indifferent? And what if God told you to sacrifice your son on an altar or fly a plane into a building? I hope at some point along the line you would start to follow your own internal sense of morality instead of mere obedience to what you think is power.

Fortunately, God hasn't asked me to do anything like that.

 

[Pygoscelis]

you are being subjective about this, you are trying to say that obedience to God could possibly be immoral

No, I'm not. The forum moderators don't allow me to say such a thing, so I am not, and I don't need to for the point I am making to stand. Your Allah is perfect and all good and would never demand anything immoral and anybody who thinks that God is telling them to do something immoral must be wrong, or the thing must not be immoral because God has some understanding they don't have. You have said that a number of times now, and that is fine.

But you still have believers in FALSE Gods (ie, not yours) who will do bad things because they wrongly believe their false God tells them to, either directly or through some misreading of the Quran (pure truth but misread by them) or some other "holy" text (a false one; one other than the Quran). And by obeying what they (wrongly) think is God's commands they set aside their own moral judgment making just as you do, and trust in their (false) God to make it for them, only unlike you, in their case there is no higher reason or explanation that makes it good, and the action truly is bad. You really don't have any problem with that?

How about Nazi soldiers who obeyed their leaders without question despite committing atrocities?

 

[Serinity]

No, I'm not. The forum moderators don't allow me to say such a thing, so I am not, and I don't need to for the point I am making to stand. Your Allah is perfect and all good and would never demand anything immoral and anybody who thinks that God is telling them to do something immoral must be wrong, or the thing must not be immoral because God has some understanding they don't have. You have said that a number of times now, and that is fine.

But you still have believers in FALSE Gods (ie, not yours) who will do bad things because they wrongly believe their false God tells them to, either directly or through some misreading of the Quran (pure truth but misread by them) or some other "holy" text (a false one; one other than the Quran). And by obeying what they (wrongly) think is God's commands they set aside their own moral judgment making just as you do, and trust in their (false) God to make it for them, only unlike you, in their case there is no higher reason or explanation that makes it good, and the action truly is bad. You really don't have any problem with that?

How about Nazi soldiers who obeyed their leaders without question despite committing atrocities?

The Nazi soldiers were wrong. The ONLY one to be obeyed WITHOUT question is God. HOWEVER, it is OK to question, and The Qur'an does say to THINK for yourself, and to REASON for yourself.

Allah / God :swt: created MORALITY, so what makes you think that God doesn't know?! God already KNOWS what is right and what is wrong. So it is mute to say or to quote atrocities happening in the name of God, as possibly God's fault.

God is All-Wise, and The Judge.

The Nazi soldiers obedience to Hitler was WRONG. because what Hitler commanded was WRONG. So what about it? God is perfect and free from all imperfection, and nothing is like Him. Hitler on the other hand is imperfect.

your attempt at quoting nazi soldiers, is mute, and doesn't stand.

Allah :swt: is All wise, thus the All-Wise Judge. we've already established that Allah / God judges with Wisdom, and only orders righteousness, and He is FREE from error, and does NOT lie, EVER.

So what are you trying to say ? I know, you are trying to say that Obedience to God could be immoral. I disagree. It can NEVER be immoral. Why? Cause Allah :swt: is pure, etc.

your point is only valid in regards to mortal beings. In that case, yes I agree. But when it comes to God, no. Cause by logic and reasoning, God only orders Justice. However there are people who lie, and they are themselves responsible for that, and they do not but lie.

They say they do it because God said so, but they don't. So what is your point? That Obedience to God could be immoral, if so I disagree.

It is like quoting a guy saying "I disobey God, cuz God said so" as proof for your case. Cause immorality will ALWAYS be DISOBEDIENCE to Allah. Whosoever says otherwise are liars.

Obedience to God and Morality go hand in hand, you can NEVER separate the two. So whoever says they OBEY Allah, while they do IMMORALITY, that is NOT TRUE.

Immorality = disobedience.
morality = obedience.


Get it? Forget people who do atrocities in the name of God, you know and I know they are just trying to cover for their bad deeds. They are liars.

PLain and simple what you are saying is this: MORALITY is doing what is right NO MATTER what you are told. Obedience is doing what you are told NO MATTER what is right.

IN Islam, Obedience and morality are inseparable. So YES, you do what is right NO MATTER what you are told, cuz ALLAH says to DO what is moral and right (i.e. what you are told) NO MATTER Who says otherwise.

may Allah :swt: forgive me if I erred. Ameen.

you have to remember Allah created us how HE Wanted us to be created and He created us to RECOGNIZE Him. you like to be good, right? not bad? God says to do what is right no matter what you are told! He COMMANDS you to do good.
And Allah knows best.

 

[Pygoscelis]

So what are you trying to say ? I know, you are trying to say that Obedience to God could be immoral. I disagree. It can NEVER be immoral. Why? Cause Allah :swt: is pure, etc.

I just told you twice that NO, that is NOT what I am saying, at all. And I am amazed at my inability to communicate that to you, or your adamant refusal to understand.

Allah / God :swt: created MORALITY, so what makes you think that God doesn't know?! God already KNOWS what is right and what is wrong. So it is mute to say or to quote atrocities happening in the name of God, as possibly God's fault.

Nobody is saying here that anything is God's fault. I don't need that to make my point.

They say they do it because God said so, but they don't. So what is your point? That Obedience to God could be immoral, if so I disagree.

Please re-read my last post. I don't know how to be any more clear or direct. I have conceded that obedience to God can't be immoral. Yes, I conceed this because I am forced to by the moderators here, but also because my point applies either way. As I wrote above I am not talking about actual existing Gods. I am talking about false Gods that people believe in but don't actually exist (ie, not your Allah), and false understandings of various holy books. Both you and I know such false God beliefs and false God understandings exist, you just insist that yours isn't one of them, and that's fine. The others still exist to make my point.

 

[Serinity]

may Allah :swt: guide you. Ameen.

I understand what you are saying, that people misread or whatever, and turn off their brains and go and do atrocities thinking they do it for God. Misinterpreting it.

however, God does say to think for yourself and reason. But when Allah / God commands something, we say "we hear and obey" without question, KNOWING that Allah is all-wise and all-knowing. However we CAN ask questions in order to gain more knowledge and understanding.

 

[MidnightRose]

Please re-read my last post. I don't know how to be any more clear or direct. I have conceded that obedience to God can't be immoral. Yes, I conceed this because I am forced to by the moderators here, but also because my point applies either way. As I wrote above I am not talking about actual existing Gods. I am talking about false Gods that people believe in but don't actually exist (ie, not your Allah), and false understandings of various holy books. Both you and I know such false God beliefs and false God understandings exist, you just insist that yours isn't one of them, and that's fine. The others still exist to make my point.

Greetings Pygo,

My assessment here is that you yourself believe in the unseen. This belief in the unseen influences who you are.

Your belief system stems from your thought processes. These thought processes are based in your brain. They are encoded in chemical neurotransmitters and electrical impulses that allow us to think, feel, and act. The keyword here is encoded.

Despite our technological advances, the best that we have is an abstract understanding of how our brains process complex information such as our thinking.

In other words, we have no idea how our brains process the complex information related to thinking. There is speculation, and that’s where the abstract, encoded explanations come in.

Our thinking, therefore, is without a shadow of a doubt, unseen. This unseen is based in our brains. No one can credibly say that it is not.

Furthermore, there is no concrete analogy to this that can be made – including computer models, which are based on concrete machine code. A competent computer programmer can tell you exactly/concretely what machine code does and how it relates to computer functioning. We can’t do that in explaining the processing of complex information in the brain.

Although it could be contended that we may figure it out someday, that doesn’t negate any of the above. Muslims also believe that we will be exposed to the unseen someday.

All of your judgements are based on the unseen phenomenon described above. You, nor anyone else can see it. Yet we still believe it’s there because we’re able to function in complex ways. The difference is that you place your belief in the unseen within your brain – and people you agree with – and Muslims place their belief in the unseen that Allah has described to Al-Amin – the Prophet Muhammad (:saws:) – and those that interpret the world based on his (:saws:) guidance.

Furthermore, it would be extremely dishonest to say that the majority of bad things that occur in the world (all kinds of theft and injustice, bribery, rape, domestic violence, gang violence, prejudice, etc.) is due to Islam. And I don’t think that’s what you’re saying. Nevertheless, your contention is that there are people who use Islamic religious texts to commit objectionable acts.

The fact of the matter here is that the people who commit non-terrorist related crimes use their brains to commit them. They are using their brains in an incorrect manner – like the people who use Islamic texts incorrectly and people such as the Nazis.

It would be absurd to blame the existence of brains for these crimes. Yet you believe the world would be a better place without Islam because some people either don’t have a proper understanding of and/or are misusing Islamic texts. And, when given satisfactory answers by Muslims, you respond by stating they have an evolved sense of morality independent of their religious texts.

That is your interpretation based on your belief in your unseen.

 

[Serinity]

for you obedience and morality is separable, for us they are inseparable.

You think our morality is independent of our religion (which is not true) we say that Allah :swt: is Moral Himself, and He :swt: GAVE us morality. Morality and Islam go hand in hand! our Morality is inseparable from Islam, why? Cause it is from ALLAH.

I just feel like you are trying to say that obeying God can not be moral. I obviously disagree. Cause that is a fallacy. Obeying God is always moral. Why? Cause God always order good, and always forbids evil. God created us, and His revelation can not be in contradiction with the SOUND human mind, and SOUND human nature!

God created us, and sent down revelation to GUIDE us. Logic says that what He sends down can NOT be in contradiction with the SOUND human mind (intellect) and SOUND human nature (morality)

Why? cause He CREATED us and He KNOWS us!

may Allah / God :swt: forgive me if I erred. Ameen.

And Allah :swt: knows best.

 

[Pygoscelis]

It would be absurd to blame the existence of brains for these crimes. Yet you believe the world would be a better place without Islam because some people either don’t have a proper understanding of and/or are misusing Islamic texts.

No. I didn't say that. It is clear that you would not allow me to say that. And I didn't even say that before you censored me (and it is unfortunate that only you and I know that). Perhaps you could speak to the actual point I was making above instead of creating positions and arguments for me so that you can address those instead?

 

[MidnightRose]

No. I didn't say that. It is clear that you would not allow me to say that. And I didn't even say that before you censored me (and it is unfortunate that only you and I know that). Perhaps you could speak to the actual point I was making above instead of creating positions and arguments for me so that you can address those instead?

You just quoted me out of context.

 

[Pygoscelis]

I just feel like you are trying to say that obeying God can not be moral.

And I'm not saying that, as I have stated numerous times to you now. So now the more interesting question becomes why do you so badly need to believe that I am trying to say that?

 

[Pygoscelis]

You just quoted me out of context.

You are trying to tell me what I am saying, despite what I am actually saying. There is no context to protect you from that fallacy. Try again maybe?

 

[Serinity]

And I'm not saying that, as I have stated numerous times to you now. So now the more interesting question becomes why do you so badly need to believe that I am trying to say that?

Then what is your case, people who take things out of context, thinking they do it for God?

 

[AabiruSabeel]

Thread closed for the Last Ten days of Ramadhan. Let us all focus on 'ibaadah during these days and we will review the thread after 'Eid :ia:.

 

[Search]

Re: Straight Answers to the Controversial Questions about Islam

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

Well, as you know, I was an atheist before but I am a Muslim now. So, having been on both sides of the spectrum, I'll have to say that it's not that I don't see the difference but that I don't quite agree with you or czgibson on this exact point.

For me, morality as you describe, would fall under the realm of self-knowledge because even in your signature it says, "Morality is doing what is right regardless of what you are told." But where is this morality coming from? You.

Prophet Muhammad :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "Whosoever knows himself knows his Lord." And in the Quran (51:20-21), it says, "And there are signs on the earth for those who are certain. And [signs] in your own souls (too)." Basically, this self-knowledge allows you to distinguish between right or wrong, but it's not from you, but somewhere within you that guides you to make that distinction. So, yes, you, but not the you-you-think but the you-that-is-deeper-within-you.

In the Quran, God says (41:53), "We will soon show them our signs in the universe and in their own souls, until it becomes quite clear to them that it is the Truth." So, God is talking about also giving us self-knowledge as Truth that we can witness also.

In logical terms, it would be this:
Self-knowledge ------> God
God ------> Self-knowledge

Thus, it's really:
Self-knowledge <------> God.

Therefore, spiritually, for me, separating the two are like trying to say that y cannot (at least some times) equal x when x always equals y and y always equals x. That is why for me as a theist obedience will equal morality and morality will equal obedience.

Also, I remember reading the other thread, and the one mistake that I think you make in regards to this issue is that you pit Islam as being in the same positions as other religions when I and other Muslims will tell you that it is not.

I have to agree very strongly, and I point you to the Obedience vs Morality thread. I made an offhanded comment in another thread about how Obedience is not morality and a mod here turned that into its own thread. It became very interesting reading the posts from the Muslims there, in how they didn't seem to be able to see Obedience and Morality as separate concepts. They insist that Obedience to authority (Allah) is the very definition of morality and it seems blind, as if no independent thought is applied. This truly perplexes me. Eventually a supersensitive mod there became frustrated and disabled my account for weeks. Only now am I able to post again. This is a very sensitive topic and I think it may be the very weakest point in Islam. I stand by my signature below. And I remain prepared to be banned from the forum if people can't handle it.