Morality & Obedience

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

So no, you don't get to pretend that God belief is all peace and roses.

The greatest commandments are to love God and to love your neighbour as you love yourself, you can do nothing greater. In life we should all search for a greatest good and strive towards it, despite all the evil that happens in this world.

In the spirit of praying for justice for the poor and oppressed, of all nations and religions.

Eric

 

[Eric H]

greetings and peace be with you kritikvernunft;

Given the Qasis, i.e. the Lex Talionis, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, there can impossibly be an absolute ban on any behaviour whatsoever, no matter how evil it could be.

Of course an eye for an eye and a death for a death are allowed, but that leaves two blind people and two dead people, instead of one of each. After the death of an 84 year old Catholic priest yesterday, we should not be looking to punish Syria further, rather we should be praying for Syria, they have endured too much suffering.

The greater path that leads us closer to God, is striving to be merciful and forgive.

If we cannot forgive others, we will never come to understand how God can forgive us.

In the spirit of praying for mercy and forgiveness.

Eric

 

['abd al-hakeem]

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings Pygoscelis,

So the first step is finding the One True God, the One who is the real God. Once you find Him, you place absolute trust in Him.

... Regardless of being right or wrong about that first step. That is the problem. You may be right, but that means others are wrong, and they follow that same second step, thinking, just like you do, that their God must have some higher reason to demand they do whatever they are convinced that he demands of them, whether or not it makes sense or seems moral to them.

I am glad you finally acknowledge this discussion is really about the existence of God. To understand the context of morality and obedience, we first need to establish belief in the One True God, as everyone has been telling you.

However, once again you put up a front of complete ignorance with regards to the belief in God. About four months ago we were having a very similar discussion. I mentioned Muslims hold that there are very strong, rational reasons for them to believe in their religion. It is not simply a matter of blind faith. Yes, many people do have erroneous beliefs about God, but the falsehood of such beliefs very quickly becomes apparent when one examines them as there is no evidence to support such erroneous beliefs (the example of Poseidon was discussed earlier). The reasoning given by such people and their conviction can in no way be assumed to be the same, as all religions are not on an equal footing. The false gods worshipped by the idolaters, which they hoped would help and provide for them, have been likened by Allah in the Qur'an to the house of a spider - something so weak and frail, because by clinging to these gods they were like a person who holds on to a spider's web, who does not gain any benefit from that. When Prophet Ibrahim :as: debated with his people against their mistaken worship of false gods, he advanced logical arguments to negate their views and establish the correct creed. Thus, in elucidating the correct monotheistic belief in God, Islam offers many logical arguments and examples, facilitating the use of our intellect and reason.

Therefore, what 'others' are doing due to their erroneous beliefs is not relevant to this discussion. You are on Islamicboard and you are conversing with Muslims about their obedience to Allaah . We are all telling you to be fair to our religion and consider our arguments separately to what believers of other religions may believe.

The other mistake you and others make is bringing up extreme cases of terrorist groups to justify that religion is dangerous and removes moral responsibility. You will find that the actions of such groups have more to do with political grievances and social factors than with following religious teaching. There are countless examples of wars and killing which are not in the name of any religion. Therefore, these examples have nothing to do with the perfect moral code taught by Islam.

And I can't really distinguish the believers in true God from the believers in False gods, as everybody insists that they are the beleivers in the true God.

That's a shame if you haven't come across any arguments presented for the truth of Islam in your (almost) 10 year stay here. Here are some points to remind you [a post from another thread]:

We can begin by considering two broad categories: the Prophethood of Muhammad , and the miracle of the Qur’an.

Regarding the first, whichever aspect of the life of the Prophet we study, we see evidence for the truth and credibility of his message. He was from a noble family and one who, from the beginning, demonstrated a virtuous character and was well-respected amongst his people. They called him ‘Al-Amin’ (the trustworthy) and considered his advice. This is a very important sign of the truth of his Prophethood as someone who has never lied to people would not lie regarding the Lord of the Worlds.

You make an accusation that he was deluded or insane. If examined, this claim does not stand whatsoever. The Prophet displayed no symptom of insanity at any time in his life. No friend, wife, or family member suspected or abandoned him due to insanity. To the contrary, they viewed him as an example to be followed and found from him a solution to their problems. The Prophet preached for a long time and brought a Law unknown in its completeness and sophistication to an ignorant society. If he was insane, it would have become obvious to those around him in the decades of his teaching. When in history did an insane man preach his message to worship One God for ten years, three of which he and his followers spent in exile, and eventually became the ruler of his lands? Which insane man has ever won the hearts and minds of people who met him and earned the respect of his adversaries? Delusion cannot explain the detailed legal codes and rulings that would be followed by millions over centuries, providing guidance in all areas of life including divorce, inheritance, finance, moral character and social justice. Delusion cannot explain 600 pages of revelation to an illiterate man that would be inimitable by the most talented around him, that would be memorised, recited and taught every day. Delusion does not explain the distinct difference that would come over him when he was receiving revelation, as witnessed by his Companions.

Those are some points to get you thinking. There are many other areas to explore, such as how he could know of stories regarding previous Prophets and nations, the testimony of those Jews and Christians who came to know him, his miracles and prophecies, the fact that he did not desire material gain or power, and the list goes on.

The second category of discussion is the Qur’an. There are numerous facets related to the Qur’an to prove its miraculous nature. I have linked you to threads and posts above, so I’ll only quote the following for now:

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

I'll try to give you a comprehensive answer as to why the Qur'an is regarded the way it is by so many people.​

1. The Power of the Qur'anic Message:​

-it is universal, unrestricted by time and applicable to any nation/culture. The Qur'an is by far the most widely followed and acted-upon book in the world. As for the Bible, most Christians follow the Church over the Bible, and each denomination has its own bible anyway. The fact that there is no other book in the world that forms the constitution of the lives of billions of followers is itself a sign.
-it is practical and logical, it can be established practically in society and is logically able to address the fundamental questions relating to all aspects of our universe.
-it is comprehensive, addressing all fundamental sectors of human life, be it spritual, physical, mental, social/societal, politcal, environmental, economic, etc.
-it is natural, in concordance with a person's nature and what they feel deep inside to be the truth.
-it is clear and consistent, free of the changes in worldview and understanding that dominate the works of human beings.
-it is deep, having provoked thousands upon thousands of volumes of exegesis, expounding upon its meaning and revealing fascinating details that many people otherwise miss in their reading of the Qur'an.​

2. The Power of the Qur'anic Style:​

-it is Interactive, the text seems alive as it responds to the very questions that arise in one's mind at that moment. It speaks to the reader and delivers specific yet universal advice.
-it is Inerrant, free from contradictons and discrepancies, or other errors that would normally be found in the works of human beings.
-it is Memorizable; the Qur'an is the only book in the world which is continuously being memorized by millions of people and recited daily. No other book has been committed to memory by so many followers, as though it fits in one's mind as a key in a lock.
-its Language, the Qur'anic arabic is a stunning miracle in itself, its style is powerful and its recitation is melodious. More info: Here, Here, Here.​

3. The Power of the Qur'anic Text:​

-it is Preserved, even after fourteen and a half centuries, the Qur'an is recited today exactly as it was first revealed. Thus it was free of the tampering that befell other religious scriptures.
-its other Remarkable features; many Muslims find a striking concordance between many Qur'anic statements and established scientific truths, which could not have been known by any normal human being 14 centuries ago. (see here). Many Muslims have also found the Qur'anic perfection extends even to various mathematical miracles within the text (see here for discussion of word repetitions). As well, there are the Qur'anic Prophecies.
-its Authorship; the context in which the Qur'an was revealed leaves the reader with no other conclusion than the fact that it could only be the word of God.

​

​

Further reading:
http://www.islamicboard.com/discover-islam/134320436-evidences-qurans-divine-origin.html#post1588513
http://www.islamicboard.com/clarifications-about-islam/134309951-prove-muhammad-prophet.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/seerah/37027-12-proofs-muhammad-peace-true-prophet.html

 

[Serinity]

You treat religion like it's a fantasy. Treat it as a science of its own.

why don't you believe when I say the sun is a square and is very cold for us all the time all around the globe all year round? with your logic, you'd say I may be right!

you limit religion to fantasy and imagination, you limit it to whatever is in the brain. Why don't you treat Religion as you treat science?

your assumption that people believe in God just because of their imagination, is erroneous and false. I, personally, believe because whatever I see around convinces me of the existence of God.

How do you know the sun exists, is it because you thought it up yourself? NO. Because you can see with your eyes, as for oxygen, how do you know? Because science proves it. Not because you thought it up.

 

[Pygoscelis]

The greatest commandments are to love God and to love your neighbour as you love yourself, you can do nothing greater.

I am glad that that is your conception of God, Eric. It isnt everyone's. Not all theists agree with you. Not even self described Christian does.

 

[kritikvernunft]

Of course an eye for an eye and a death for a death are allowed, but that leaves two blind people and two dead people, instead of one of each.

Yes, that is the price to pay for discouraging misbehaviour.
You cannot make an omelet without breaking eggs.
Furthermore, the Qasis is Divine Law. Therefore, the believers are not supposed to question its validity.
Either you accept it, or else you are not voluntarily submitting to Divine Law, which in turn removes you from the religion.

After the death of an 84 year old Catholic priest yesterday, we should not be looking to punish Syria further ...

Well, Syria had nothing to do with it in the first place, even though some people of a rather virtual organization called "ISIS" may have "claimed responsibility", but they are also known to claim responsibility for the bad weather! ;-)

If we cannot forgive others, we will never come to understand how God can forgive us.

Possibly, but no such consideration may ever be used to argue against other people's rights under the Qasis. As I said, the victim may forgive and waive reparations, but that is his exclusive prerogative. He perfectly has every right not to do that.
Your statement sounds too much like an encouragement for the victim of misbehaviour to give up his rights under divine law. The problem with that view is that it actively encourages misbehaviour. Therefore, the victim has the right to waive, but should never be pressured to do so. It remains an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Therefore, what 'others' are doing due to their erroneous beliefs is not relevant to this discussion.

*double face palm*

No, what people are doing due to their erroneous beliefs is what this discussion is all about. It is about suspending or ignoring your own moral senses and your own moral judgment making, to instead trust in what you think is God, and saying that he knows better so it must be good, even if it looks bad to you. You should be able to see this in regard to those who don't share your religion; those with false beliefs. That is what this thread is about.

Your demanding that this be instead a thread about Islam being the one true religion is a dodge; and less than honest one. I don't need to say otherwise for my point to be seen, and you know very well that I can not call you out on your claims without breaking forum rules and upsetting your fellow admins. So please, stop baiting me or demanding that I do so. Not everyone shares your religion or finds what you see as evidence to be at all convincing. You do, so you are Muslim. Eric H believes he has better evidence for Christianity and that Christianity is more true; so he is a Christian. And other believers in other Gods, including false Gods, think the same of their religions.

You are on Islamicboard and you are conversing with Muslims about their obedience to Allaah

Look again. That isn't what I have been doing in this thread. I take a much broader view here. I don't zero in exclusively on Allah. I am making a point about the danger of suspending your own moral judgment making and trusting that God knows better than you, if your God turns out to be false, or if what you thought he wanted wasn't what he actually wanted. Of course, I do include your Allah as one such false God, along with all other Gods. Otherwise I would be Muslim. But that isn't he point of this thread, and you and others are twisting and turning to avoid the actual topic here.

 

[ardianto]

Greetings, Pygoscelis

In every Eid-ul Adha I always buy goat and then give it to mosque. I never attend when that goat sacrificed. Maybe because my heart too weak. I know that goat feel pain. So I always pray, wish God makes that goat die as fast as possible.

I buy goat to be sacrificed as my obedience to the command that clear. But how if God command me to sacrifice my son?. Would I obey it?.

The answer is not yes or no. But, I believe God will not command me like that. I am not a prophet like Abraham who had direct connection with God. God tested prophet Abraham with command to sacrifice his son because Abraham was prophet. While I am just ordinary human, and God test me with other tests like my ability to prevent myself from commit sin, my ability to be grateful on Him. So, if I got a dream which God command me to sacrifice my son, I would know that this dream was not from God, but from devil.

I am still normal Muslim, Pygo. I just use my sense in living as religious person.

 

[Muhammad]

No, what people are doing due to their erroneous beliefs is what this discussion is all about. It is about suspending or ignoring your own moral senses and your own moral judgment making, to instead trust in what you think is God, and saying that he knows better so it must be good, even if it looks bad to you. You should be able to see this in regard to those who don't share your religion; those with false beliefs. That is what this thread is about.

This is where the 'less than honest' dodging is going on. You know you cannot challenge the firm foundation of Islam, which is why you've now decided to make it a broader discussion by lumping all religions into one and treating them as the same. As Muslims, we are not responsible for what other people of other faiths are doing. We are here to tell you about Islam, not the false gods.

and you know very well that I can not call you out on your claims without breaking forum rules and upsetting your fellow admins.

This is a cop-out. You have been freely breaking forum rules in your insulting remarks about Islam being compared to fairytales. Tell me, which fairytale is supported by the logical arguments I have listed in my above post? Which supposed book written by a 'faery' has the qualities of the Qur'an? Please, don't pretend you have been abiding by the forum rules just to appease us till now.

I am making a point about the danger of suspending your own moral judgment making and trusting that God knows better than you, if your God turns out to be false, or if what you thought he wanted wasn't what he actually wanted.

That's why I am telling you to look at the evidences for Islam. Sometimes you argue about obedience to God, other times you argue about how to know the existence/correct belief in God. Instead of yo-yoing between different arguments you should deal with the issue in a stepwise approach.

 

[Pygoscelis]

You treat religion like it's a fantasy. Treat it as a science of its own.

why don't you believe when I say the sun is a square and is very cold for us all the time all around the globe all year round? with your logic, you'd say I may be right!

you limit religion to fantasy and imagination, you limit it to whatever is in the brain. Why don't you treat Religion as you treat science?

your assumption that people believe in God just because of their imagination, is erroneous and false. I, personally, believe because whatever I see around convinces me of the existence of God.

How do you know the sun exists, is it because you thought it up yourself? NO. Because you can see with your eyes, as for oxygen, how do you know? Because science proves it. Not because you thought it up.

The heat from the sun and the existence of oxygen have been tested and studied through the scientific method, with falsifiable hypotheses, testing, and revision of understanding. That is science. That isn't how "revelation" or "faith" work. Where you do make falsifiable claims, then we can do some science on them, but otherwise science really doesn't apply here.

I understand if it troubles you, but you are just going to have to accept that not all of us find your "evidence" for your religion at all convincing. We need not bicker over that or call each other liars over it. We simply disagree. We're not all Muslims. And this thread isn't about that. Care to address the actual topic here?

 

[Pygoscelis]

This is where the 'less than honest' dodging is going on. You know you cannot challenge the firm foundation of Islam, which is why you've now decided to make it a broader discussion by lumping all religions into one and treating them as the same. As Muslims, we are not responsible for what other people of other faiths are doing. We are here to tell you about Islam, not the false gods.

Mohammad. Are you asking me to "challenge the firm foundation of Islam"? Your forum rules and your fellow admins tell me not to. But here you are implying that if I don't, I must not be able to. That is dishonest. It is a delicate balance for me on this forum; to openly state that I am an atheist and answer questions that inevitably arise such as yours, and yet not break the forum rules. It is not easy to walk on eggshells like that, and I admit that I have not always done it perfectly. I don't care to engage in it here, as it isn't necessary in this thread, and is only distracting from the actual topic of this thread... which you continue to dodge.

If you would rather discuss with atheists and other non-muslims about the arguments for and against Islam, you can certainly find that outside of this thread.

You say that the behaviour of other theists, who you see as believing in and obeying false ideas of God, are not your concern? Really? You don't care about children who are denied blood transfusions due to beliefs of Jehova's Witness parents? You don't care about the slowing of science in curing fatal illness due to Christian blocking of stem cell research? You don't care about Hasidic Jewish Rabbis doing oral suction circumcision on infants? You would have been ok with the ancient Aztecs ripping out the still beating hearts of innocent virgins to sacrifice to their God? You are ok with the likes of Daesh murdering homosexuals and kafir (including Muslims, like I presume yourself, that they deem unfit) due to a misreading and misunderstanding of Islam? None of this bothers you at all?

 

[Muhammad]

I don't care to engage in it here, as it isn't necessary in this thread, and is only distracting from the actual topic of this thread... which you continue to dodge.

There seems to be a misunderstanding regarding what the topic is about. Essentially the topic involves two components, as mentioned by brother ibn-Adam earlier: the first step is to acknowledge the One True God, the second step involving obedience and morality follows from that. In a number of your posts you have questioned how one can know the One True God or how we can know what He wants from us. Therefore, the arguments for the validity of Islam are addressing the very core of the issue here; it is not dodging the topic at all.

Mohammad. Are you asking me to "challenge the firm foundation of Islam"? Your forum rules and your fellow admins tell me not to. But here you are implying that if I don't, I must not be able to. That is dishonest.

You are already questioning the foundation of Islam when you are implying there is no logic in obeying our God and receiving moral guidance from Him. Our forum rules state that we don't accept attacks and insults towards Islam. What breaks those rules is repeatedly making baseless assertions about Islam despite receiving responses to prove otherwise, and leads one to think you are unable to address those arguments. It is somewhat ironic you speak of treading on eggshells after 7 pages containing numerous insulting comments about our religion.

You say that the behaviour of other theists, who you see as believing in and obeying false ideas of God, are not your concern? Really?

What I said was that we are not responsible for others' choices. If they wish to believe in false gods that go against logic, you should take it up with them, not us. Don't treat all religions as one. We hope and pray for their guidance and we make efforts to convey the message, but we can't force them to desist from their error. What this has to do with accepting murders or human sacrifices, I really don't know, so let's not twist words here.

 

[MidnightRose]

Hello [MENTION=9285]Pygoscelis[/MENTION]

You have been here for approximately 10 years. You should know that Islam teaches that there is only one true Lord and that all other deities are false. Yet you want the Muslims of this forum to accept this premise as a point of yours.


You should also know that Islam states non-Islamic belief - and actions based on them - to be misguided. Your attempts at making Muslims accept this as a point of yours is also interesting.


Actually, it's not.


And no, I don't see your point about other religions and the obedience of their followers. That's because Islam already teaches that these are misguided religions.


Your narrative went from: Since there are some people who do misinterpret Islamic teachings, Then we'd be better off without the teachings in the first place to Since the obedience of followers of other religions can be dangerous, Then Muslims should be able to understand that obedience to a deity can be dangerous.


This is no different than the tactics Christian missionaries use by quoting Qur’anic verses out of proper context to fit their perceptions and agendas.


Your analogies were never lost on me and your insults and nonsensical playing the victim doesn't intimidate me.


These analogies are indicative of ignorance towards the person, teachings, and truthfulness of Muhammad .


After your spending years here on IB, I think it's just disregard and malice towards it.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Our forum rules state that we don't accept attacks and insults towards Islam. What breaks those rules is repeatedly making baseless assertions about Islam despite receiving responses to prove otherwise, and leads one to think you are unable to address those arguments. It is somewhat ironic you speak of treading on eggshells after 7 pages containing numerous insulting comments about our religion.

Actually, I have been making extensive efforts not to do that. My point here doesn't require me to speak against Islam. We can keep this exclusively to Gods that are not yours, as I have been trying to do, to walk on those eggshells for you. It isn't me that keeps insisting we turn this thread into one about whether or not Islam is true.

Can you see the danger in believers in false Gods when they stop making moral decisions for themselves because of it, or not? That was the only point I was making. Your fellow admin turned it into this thread and people have been arguing that Islam is right and true instead of addressing the actual point ever since, despite my efforts to rein it in, even by saying that Islam is right and true (which obviously I don't actually believe).

What I said was that we are not responsible for others' choices. If they wish to believe in false gods that go against logic, you should take it up with them, not us.

We are both effected by their actions. Innocent third parties are effected by their actions. We have every reason to care about their actions. That you say you don't perplexes me.

Don't treat all religions as one.

I'm not. There can be one true religion, and it can even be yours, and my point remains valid in regard to all those other religions.

 

[Serinity]

Unlinke you, Pygo, we have no doubt, at all, that Allah is the One and only true God, cuz our belief is based on reason and logic.

should we now ban our morality too? well, someone can misuse it and say something is right, when it is wrong.

who cares what other people of other religions do, thinking God commanded them. Islam however is superior and unlike any other religion.

we already have given you enough proof that God exists, which is not based on superstition, or imagination. Rather you are the one imposing the idea of people thinking God told them.

Should we ban all knives, since, hey. They are dangerous, are they not? people can kill innocents, therefore knives are evil and dangerous.. Not.

 

[Muhammad]

Actually, I have been making extensive efforts not to do that. My point here doesn't require me to speak against Islam. We can keep this exclusively to Gods that are not yours, as I have been trying to do, to walk on those eggshells for you. It isn't me that keeps insisting we turn this thread into one about whether or not Islam is true.

Firstly, we are not stupid in that we don't recognise the implications directed at Islam under the guise of speaking of 'Gods that are not yours'. Secondly, regardless of what you have been trying to do, the insulting remarks are there for all to see. There is a repeated narrative of comparing Islam to some kind of fantasy on the same level as the 'Loch Ness monster' and nonsensical beliefs. There have also been disrespectful remarks about Allah and the Qur'an. All of this despite numerous attempts at pointing out the stark differences between Islam and mythical beliefs. If you were simply asking questions about Islam, fine. If you don't believe in Islam, your choice. But going round in circles casting aspersions is not our idea of discussion.

Can you see the danger in believers in false Gods when they stop making moral decisions for themselves because of it, or not? That was the only point I was making.

I see a danger in all systems besides the belief in the One True God, be that atheism, agnosticism, polytheism etc. The moment moral decisions are directed away from the One True God, we see all sorts of societal problems as a result. Does that answer your question?

Your fellow admin turned it into this thread and people have been arguing that Islam is right and true instead of addressing the actual point ever since, despite my efforts to rein it in, even by saying that Islam is right and true (which obviously I don't actually believe).

When you have an issue with any mod action or moderator, you should make a thread in Helpdesk and discuss it there. Repeatedly complaining about them in your posts is very disrespectful and against the forum rules. You should consider yourself fortunate that the mods haven't decided to ban you on that basis alone, as they probably would on other forums. I haven't seen anyone force you to say Islam is true. The mods have never done that to any non-Muslim who has visited here. As I said before, they only ask for respect.

We are both effected by their actions. Innocent third parties are effected by their actions. We have every reason to care about their actions. That you say you don't perplexes me.

Where did I say I don't care about their actions?

I'm not. There can be one true religion, and it can even be yours, and my point remains valid in regard to all those other religions.

So why are you asking Muslims about the moral decisions of other theists?

 

['abd al-hakeem]

@Pygoscelis
Your tactics don't confuse nor intimidate me.
Edit: I suggest our respected readers sift thought the thousands of posts this member has made over the past 10 years in respect to what I have mentioned.

Bismillah walhadmulillah;
Salaam aleykum ikhwan;

I think our readers have better things to do than waste their valuable time with the antics of a disbeliever, let alone re-reading 10 years worth of post devoid of benefit.

Why I even posted to this thread, again, given the number of ways that I fall exceedingly short, in the eyes of Allah subhanahu wa Ta'ala [surely there are more pious, more righteous people in the world; I'd be lucky to consider myself of those who successfully repent, astaghfirullah] what is the point of entertaining one who is clearly devoid of guidance, when only Allah swt guides?

Have we lost perspective?

24:49 But if the right is on their side, they come to him with all submission.

2:284 To Allah belongeth all that is in the heavens and on earth. Whether ye show what is in your minds or conceal it, Allah Calleth you to account for it. He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and punisheth whom He pleaseth, for Allah hath power over all things.

7:178 Whom Allah doth guide,- he is on the right path: whom He rejects from His guidance,- such are the persons who perish.

10:35 Say: "Of your 'partners' is there any that can give any guidance towards truth?" Say: "It is Allah Who gives guidance towards truth, is then He Who gives guidance to truth more worthy to be followed, or he who finds not guidance (himself) unless he is guided? what then is the matter with you? How judge ye?"

24:46 We have indeed sent down signs that make things manifest: and Allah guides whom He wills to a way that is straight.

39:37 And such as Allah doth guide there can be none to lead astray. Is not Allah Exalted in Power, (Able to enforce His Will), Lord of Retribution?

Wallahu alem.

May Allah guide you Pygo, and me, and my ikhwan, and all our respected members. Amin ya Rabbil alamin.

 

[AabiruSabeel]

I think this thread has run its course and we seem to be running in circles now. We can safely close this thread with the following quote from the above post:

Can you see the danger in believers in false Gods when they stop making moral decisions for themselves because of it, or not? That was the only point I was making.

I see a danger in all systems besides the belief in the One True God, be that atheism, agnosticism, polytheism etc. The moment moral decisions are directed away from the One True God, we see all sorts of societal problems as a result. Does that answer your question?

I'm not. There can be one true religion, and it can even be yours, and my point remains valid in regard to all those other religions.

So why are you asking Muslims about the moral decisions of other theists?

If there's anything anyone would like to contribute, please contact us in the Helpdesk and we will review it :ia:.


:threadclo