Islam and Secularism

[Yhorm]

This is something that's been on my mind for a long time, especially since the refugee crisis. I'm an atheist from Europe and I've been trying to learn about Islam for about 3 months now. Not because I want to convert, but because a huge amount of Muslims are coming to our countries since 2015. I'm not a huge fan of any religion and in my opinion secularism is one of Europe's greatest achievements. Hence my question:

Is Islam and Secularism compatible, especially for Muslims migrants?

Let me explain where I'm coming from. As an atheist I can't even fathom what it feels like to believe in God. I can't fathom what it feels like to actually have a book in which our creator explains everything to us. As far as I've understood it, Islam is like a very comprehensive instruction manual on life. It sets rules for nutrition, intercourse, law, social behavior etc., etc. Let's say I believe in all of this. I have no doubt that all of this is completely true. The Quran is Gods last and final word. Why would I ever integrate into any society, that goes against those rules? Why would I follow the constitution of a country, if I have my very own divine constitution? Why would I change my way of live in the slightest, if I believe my way is ordained by God?

Now I don't want to offend anybody. I don't mind usually, but I DO feel like I'm a guest here so I don't want to be rude. I seriously don't have an opinion on this and I'm dying to get some opinions from Muslims. You all have a great day.

 

[kritikvernunft]

... in my opinion secularism is one of Europe's greatest achievements ...

If the birth rate falls below 2.1 children/woman, the population will become extinct. The further it drops below that minimum, the faster the population will die out. In Germany, for example, the total fertility rate has been rated around 1.4, and still dropping. My conjectural calculation model says that it will keep dropping until it will have become statistically indistinguishable from zero. If there is any link between secularism and birth rate -- there undoubtedly is -- then Europe's greatest achievement is to resolutely go the way of the dinosaur.

Is Islam and Secularism compatible, especially for Muslims migrants?

Secularism seems to be rather suitable for dinosaurs. Jurassic Park was certainly a secular haven for the staunchly anti-reproduction Tyrannosaurus Rex. That animal species absolutely desired to disappear from the face of the earth. It was absolutely unstoppable. It is indeed gone now.

Why would I ever integrate into any society, that goes against those rules?

After the locals die out, and join their brothers in Jurassic paradise, someone will still need to inherit the land. So, it is mostly question of in the meanwhile not to stray too far away. Otherwise, other non-secularists may best you, and inherit the juiciest pieces in your stead.

Why would I follow the constitution of a country, if I have my very own divine constitution? Why would I change my way of live in the slightest, if I believe my way is ordained by God?

Not. Not at all. You would obviously not do that. You have given the answer by yourself, haven't you? Instead, you should just be patient and wait, until the dinosaurs will mostly be gone. My take on the matter is that secularism is an ideologic model that is much more suitable for Jurassic paradise than for this much simpler planet earth. That is obviously why the secularists are going there in great numbers.

So, when you finally get there, don't forget to say hello to our good friend Tyrannosaurus Rex.

 

[Yhorm]

I asked a simple question. No need to be so arrogant, mate.

 

[Mustafa16]

Well, you should abide by the laws of the state in which you live, but if you ever choose to abide by Islam, then the rules which do not contradict the state and/or you can follow due to religious accommodations, should be followed (not drinking alcohol, not fornicating, not eating pork, etc.) as for shariah law, you can still respect it and see the beauty of religion by seeing the beauty of the rules which contradict the state, and thus use it to inspire you to follow Islam in other ways (praying 5 times a day, fasting during Ramadan, etc.)

 

[Yhorm]

Well, you should abide by the laws of the state in which you live, but if you ever choose to abide by Islam, then the rules which do not contradict the state and/or you can follow due to religious accommodations, should be followed (not drinking alcohol, not fornicating, not eating pork, etc.) as for shariah law, you can still respect it and see the beauty of religion by seeing the beauty of the rules which contradict the state, and thus use it to inspire you to follow Islam in other ways (praying 5 times a day, fasting during Ramadan, etc.)

So what you're saying is: The laws of the state trump Sharia law in this case?

 

[kritikvernunft]

I asked a simple question.

And you wanted a simple answer. So, vote for Donald Trump in that case. He will supply you with all the half-truths that you want to hear. And then some, of course. He sounds pleasantly similar to Milosevic, who was going to make Serbia great again! ;-)

No need to be so arrogant, mate.

As you know, Divine Law says that all behaviour is permitted, unless it is listed as explicitly forbidden. Hence, you will have to rephrase your remark in terms of Divine Law. Otherwise, your complaint will not be receivable. As you know, the laws of the singular God always take precedence on personal preferences. We only recognize Divine Law as legitimate. We reject man-made law as inconsistent, contradictory, and ultimately self-defeating. That last bit you already knew, because what could be more self-defeating than a birth rate that wants to sink all the way to zero? ;-)

 

[Yhorm]

Why would I vote for Trump? I'm neither American nor do I agree with him in the slightest. You're exactly the kind of person that poisons any debate. And it's a little shocking that you live in Germany while you absolutely seem to hate it.

 

[Mustafa16]

So what you're saying is: The laws of the state trump Sharia law in this case?

in this case yes....for instance, if in the shariah, the punishment for theft was hand amputation, that could not be applied in a non muslim country....because, well, you would go to prison.....if you applied shariah in non muslim countries, you would be living in the jungle....you can proselytize and make dawah, and hope that the country becomes muslim, but you can not ENFORCE punishments and laws, etc.

 

[kritikvernunft]

So what you're saying is: The laws of the state trump Sharia law in this case?

The goal is to oppose man-made law, if only for the fun of it.

Thomas Aquinas expounded the concept of Human Law, a distinct form of law alongside Natural Law and Eternal Law, in Summa Theologica. Thomas asserted the primacy of natural law over man-made law, stating that where it "is at variance with natural law it will not be a law, but spoilt law" (ST, I–II q. 95 a. 2). The result of any such conflict is that the man-made law does "not oblige in the court of conscience" (ST, I–II q. 95 a. 4)

The opposition by Thomas Aquinas was unfortunately not radical enough. He still left the door open. The true religion, the true belief is the one that slams that door firmly shut. Opposing man-made law, neutralizing, and rendering it ineffective are acts of faith. You will go to paradise, if you do that enough. The goal is to oppose man-made law, and the instrument is religion. Only the singular God has the authority to make laws. The essence of true faith is the total disbelief that man-made law could ever be legitimate.

 

[Mustafa16]

The goal is to oppose man-made law, if only for the fun of it.

Thomas Aquinas expounded the concept of Human Law, a distinct form of law alongside Natural Law and Eternal Law, in Summa Theologica. Thomas asserted the primacy of natural law over man-made law, stating that where it "is at variance with natural law it will not be a law, but spoilt law" (ST, I–II q. 95 a. 2). The result of any such conflict is that the man-made law does "not oblige in the court of conscience" (ST, I–II q. 95 a. 4)

The opposition by Thomas Aquinas was unfortunately not radical enough. He still left the door open. The true religion, the true belief is the one that slams that door firmly shut. Opposing man-made law, neutralizing, and rendering it ineffective are acts of faith. You will go to paradise, if you do that enough. The goal is to oppose man-made law, and the instrument is religion. Only the singular God has the authority to make laws. The essence of true faith is the total disbelief that man-made law could ever be legitimate.

brother, please do not be too harsh with our atheist friend, being gentle is good for dawah and it's simply the right thing to do as Muslims.....

 

[Yhorm]

brother, please do not be too harsh with our atheist friend, being gentle is good for dawah and it's simply the right thing to do as Muslims.....

No need to be gentle, I simply want to get some real authentic opinions. If that is his true opinion than by any means, let him express it.

 

[kritikvernunft]

Why would I vote for Trump?

Because he gives simple answers to simple questions.

I'm neither American nor do I agree with him in the slightest.

I personally like him quite a bit. He is good at speaking to the crowds; almost as good as Milosevic, who gave the Serbs exactly what they had asked for.

You're exactly the kind of person that poisons any debate.

Well, everybody can say that about everybody else. But then again, isn't it rather you making the ad hominem here? ;-)

And it's a little shocking that you live in Germany while you absolutely seem to hate it.

I gave Germany only as an example. I do not live in Germany. In fact, I get along quite well with Germans. They will be sorely missed, when they will have departed to keep the dinosaurs company. Still, they are leaving a very solid manufacturing base behind. World famous. We are going to do very well after they will be gone! ;-)

 

[Yhorm]

I came here to get some knowledge on a topic I have no knowledge in. You came here to ridicule me. If that's how you want to talk to people so be it. I'm also wondering why you keep talking about simple answers. Who said I want simple answers? I simply have no desire to study Islam in its entirety, hence I came here to ask people who have a lot more knowledge on the topic. Are you even a Muslim by the way? What "other" religion are you following?

 

[kritikvernunft]

... being gentle is good for dawah ...

I somehow suspect that dawah mostly does itself. Even to the atheists, it should be obvious that rejecting the deluge of inconsistent and contradictory rules invented in some kind of parliament, can only be a good idea. I wonder why they do not believe in the singular God, but they do believe in the legitimacy of all kinds of invented laws? Atheists say that they do not believe, but at the same time they believe in the worst possible thing that anybody actually could believe in. So, my form of dawah is to convince the unbelievers to disbelieve in something else. Disbelief is a good thing, but you should carefully pick your object of disbelief. Atheism is a bit inconsistent. Why focus on disbelieving something that they say does not even exist? What a waste of time. They could as well spend their efforts on disbelieving something that certainly does exist, and that makes a hell of a lot more trouble: man-made law.

 

[kritikvernunft]

Are you even a Muslim by the way? What "other" religion are you following?

Well, we don't completely agree on things. They see Islam as the goal, and getting rid of man-made law as the instrument. I see getting rid of man-made law as the goal, and Islam as the instrument. So, true Muslims are of the type "12", while I am of the type "21", which is not a 100% accredited form of the religion. So, we understand each other, but we almost never agree on goal/instrument discussions. Still, Islam is an instrument that is also its own goal. So, it is not as simple as just reversing things. But then again, you prefer simple answers to simple questions. Hence, I can imagine that you are not interested in the finer details of all of that! ;-)

 

[Yhorm]

I wonder why they do not believe in the singular God, but they do believe in the legitimacy of all kinds of invented laws?

Because we believe that religious laws are man-made. That's why we follow other man-made laws that suit our needs better. We're also not really focusing on disbelieving. It's no effort to not believe something, we just do. That should be quite familiar to you. We also put effort into disbelieving man-made law. That's why laws are changing constantly.

 

[M.I.A.]

This is something that's been on my mind for a long time, especially since the refugee crisis. I'm an atheist from Europe and I've been trying to learn about Islam for about 3 months now. Not because I want to convert, but because a huge amount of Muslims are coming to our countries since 2015. I'm not a huge fan of any religion and in my opinion secularism is one of Europe's greatest achievements. Hence my question:

Is Islam and Secularism compatible, especially for Muslims migrants?

Let me explain where I'm coming from. As an atheist I can't even fathom what it feels like to believe in God. I can't fathom what it feels like to actually have a book in which our creator explains everything to us. As far as I've understood it, Islam is like a very comprehensive instruction manual on life. It sets rules for nutrition, intercourse, law, social behavior etc., etc. Let's say I believe in all of this. I have no doubt that all of this is completely true. The Quran is Gods last and final word. Why would I ever integrate into any society, that goes against those rules? Why would I follow the constitution of a country, if I have my very own divine constitution? Why would I change my way of live in the slightest, if I believe my way is ordained by God?

Now I don't want to offend anybody. I don't mind usually, but I DO feel like I'm a guest here so I don't want to be rude. I seriously don't have an opinion on this and I'm dying to get some opinions from Muslims. You all have a great day.

what's religion got to do with anything?

...not sure where you are from but the UK has experienced influxes of economic migrants for a number of decades.

the only difference is that those people came solely to make a living and find new ways of providing for there families.

ironically with the state of several countries within the EU those economic migrants are still turning up.

if you worry about war refugees, then maybe your government's should do the same..

Islam is what you make it.

http://news.sky.com/story/boys-held-over-possible-hate-crime-murder-of-polish-man-10559484

 

[Abz2000]

Well, you should abide by the laws of the state in which you live, but if you ever choose to abide by Islam, then the rules which do not contradict the state and/or you can follow due to religious accommodations, should be followed (not drinking alcohol, not fornicating, not eating pork, etc.) as for shariah law, you can still respect it and see the beauty of religion by seeing the beauty of the rules which contradict the state, and thus use it to inspire you to follow Islam in other ways (praying 5 times a day, fasting during Ramadan, etc.)

Actually you abide by the laws of God to the best of your ability and work to establish the laws of God to the best of your ability, for Allah is MY Master and YOUR Master, and you make clear to all people that Allah swt requires submission to His will.
It is easy to give dawah by saying things that people want to hear, but it is better to guide them as close as possible to the truth.

Regarding the op's question on why so many people migrate, one would have to look at the human circumstances in the region and in a country who's people were quite affluent and often hired servants from abroad....bearing in mind that syria has been under sanctions for a long time for it's condemnation of Western aggression and it's differences with te ionist regime, not that i am saying that Assad is a saint or anything like that, rather far from it.
....the following videos are of a very graphic nature but essential for people to understand the horrors that the godless secular military companies have inflicted upon real people, companies who are encouraged by the politicians whom they lobby to make lots of weapons in order to increase global usury baron dominance, companies who make a loss if their goods are not sold and their business is bloodshed and destruction:


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8ff_1470021614
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=da2_1472459604
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d0c_1414751134

As someone who's moved out of britain only to find a puppet government propped up and supported with weapons and training by the british and american governments and media machines, media machines which go into overdrive talking about "Islaamic extremism in bangladesh" whenever large masses of people come out in peaceful protest demanding their God given rights and are shot at, imprisoned, tortured etc by corrupt "law enforcement", i can assure you that i know very well the mentality of people who not only want to move to a different place, but also of those who wish to go and pay back the colonialist puppet masters for their evil.

If i was in syria and the above incidents happened, i would prefer to go kamikazee in the secularist and godless countries america, france or britain where the majority of the blame really lies than to waste time on sectarian blood letting specifically set up by the british and american governments to keep people busy whilst they weaken the region further in preparation for an attack.

A lot of blackmailing and puppet directing takes place behind the scenes of the political theatre that you are shown on tv.
You could liken it to the difference between the surface web and the deep/dark web.

 

[M.I.A.]

Actually you abide by the laws of God to the best of your ability and work to establish the laws of God to the best of your ability, for Allah is MY Master and YOUR Master, and you make clear to all people that Allah swt requires submission to His will.
It is easy to give dawah by saying things that people want to hear, but it is better to guide them as close as possible to the truth.

Regarding the op's question on why so many people migrate, one would have to look at the human circumstances in the region and in a country who's people were quite affluent and often hired servants from abroad....bearing in mind that syria has been under sanctions for a long time for it's condemnation of Western aggression and it's differences with te ionist regime, not that i am saying that Assad is a saint or anything like that, rather far from it.
....the following videos are of a very graphic nature but essential for people to understand the horrors that the godless secular military companies have inflicted upon real people, companies who are encouraged by the politicians whom they lobby to make lots of weapons in order to increase global usury baron dominance, companies who make a loss if their goods are not sold and their business is bloodshed and destruction:


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8ff_1470021614
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=da2_1472459604
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d0c_1414751134

As someone who's moved out of britain only to find a puppet government propped up and supported with weapons and training by the british and american governments and media machines, media machines which go into overdrive talking about "Islaamic extremism in bangladesh" whenever large masses of people come out in peaceful protest demanding their God given rights and are shot at, imprisoned, tortured etc by corrupt "law enforcement", i can assure you that i know very well the mentality of people who not only want to move to a different place, but also of those who wish to go and pay back the colonialist puppet masters for their evil.

If i was in syria and the above incidents happened, i would prefer to go kamikazee in the secularist and godless countries america, france or britain where the majority of the blame really lies than to waste time on sectarian blood letting specifically set up by the british and american governments to keep people busy whilst they weaken the region further in preparation for an attack.

A lot of blackmailing and puppet directing takes place behind the scenes of the political theatre that you are shown on tv.
You could liken it to the difference between the surface web and the deep/dark web.

this is the joke really, we all see the chess board..

and they would be happy to play you as pawns.

I don't buy into it..

although even if you had all the resources in the world, you would still be you..

what happened to Osama bin laden?

is any part of any country strengthened or weakened by his actions?

so who did he die for?

...not the Russians apparently.


kamikazee is a horrible term..


better you live with your nobility than fall on your own sword.

 

[kritikvernunft]

Because we believe that religious laws are man-made.

There is something like the true blueprint of mankind, which contains a copy of its law. That blueprint cannot be man-made, because it would require the human maker of the blueprint to pre-exist humanity. That would be contradictory. If mankind should be governed by the law mentioned in its blueprint, it is obvious that the maker of this law is something else than human. Mankind can seek to discover this law in its purest form. One way to go about it, is the belief that it would be revealed. There could possibly be alternative ways to rediscover this law. I do not believe, however, that having politicians debate about that, will yield the results desired.

That's why we follow other man-made laws that suit our needs better.

This presupposes that you know what is better for you, and what manipulations of the rules would lead to that. The idea that it would work, looks quite incompatible with a collapsing birth rate. So, your pressing need is to go the way of the dinosaur, I suppose? We have no problem with that, because in the end, everybody believes what they want. People who believe in man-made law develop a strong propensity to die out. That is ok, because everybody is allowed to define by themselves what their needs are. If that means dying out, so be it.

We also put effort into disbelieving man-made law. That's why laws are changing constantly.

Replacing man-made by new man-made law does not represent disbelief in man-made law. In the end, it will be man-made law again. So, in the end, nothing really changes. I do not mind that people want to change their laws. I do not change mine. They will remain forever the same. You are only subject to the laws to which you voluntarily submit. Hence, you do not need to obey to Divine Law, if you do not want to. Nothing stops you from believing politicians, and submit to their inventions instead. We will not stop you from doing that.