Textual corruption of the Qur'an?

[talibilm]

Another Issue on the Goat ate the copy of Mushahf (mo)

The COPY of verses that were ate by goat during moments after Prophet's Death were about suckling came YEARS earlier and it was very well known to the Sahaba when even the last verse of Quran (5:3 ''........ “…This day have I perfected your religion for you, ....'') revealed in the last haj Sermon just before about 3 months before death was NOT LOST then how do those verses that revealed before years have been lost ?

Since some claim that we lost those sura which the goat ate during the moments of Prophets :saws: demise that was under the pillow ?

If the verse was intended to be in the Noble Quran how many days could it be under the pillow ? ,JUST before Prophet (saw) death ? or months ? or years ? because those suckling verse were early revelations and abrogated later and was only a copy of Mushahaf imo

So we CONCLUDE that we do not find the suckling verse or the stoning verse as Allah intended here in the below verse.

Noble Quran 2:106 '' Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?

Talib We Reply '' Yes Ya Allah ,You are Indeed all powerful and you can make us forget what you intend us to forget like you did even with your Habib :saws:''




Bro @Abz2000,

may this hadith be noted too ( bukhari Book #60, Hadith #60)

Narrated Ibn Az-Zubair: I said to 'Uthman, "This Verse which is in Surat-al-Baqara: "Those of you who die and leave widows behind...without turning them out." has been abrogated by another Verse. Why then do you write it (in the Qur'an)?" 'Uthman said. "Leave it (where it is), O the son of my brother, for I will not shift anything of it (i.e. the quran) from its original position."

 

[Abz2000]

Allah knows best, the.more we study the more we'll learn and gain an understanding of the nature of things.

But let's be careful to be openhearted to the truth and also possibilities of the things we don't yet know lest we think:
Atuhaddithoonahum bimaa fatahaAllaahu 'alaikum liyu haajjookum 'inda rabbakum, afalaa ta'qiloon: )

.....and up feeling a little sheepish later.

 

[talibilm]

Allah knows best, the.more we study the more we'll learn and gain an understanding of the nature of things.

But let's be careful to be openhearted to the truth and also possibilities of the things we don't yet know lest we think:
Atuhaddithoonahum bimaa fatahaAllaahu 'alaikum liyu haajjookum 'inda rabbakum, afalaa ta'qiloon: )

.....and up feeling a little sheepish later.

Brother even the top scholar can make errors and the knowledge of Islam is like a sea and that's why a hadith said something like we seek knowledge our cradle untill the graveyard. But your contribution in your first known post to me about your's Handling with an appropriate hadith the slip of the Tongue saying ' You are my Slave I am your Rab 'puts you at one of the very Knowledgeable , Mashallah , ( I know we are not Scholars or Muftis ) when I am trying to follow people like you as a student of Knowledge .

 

[Abz2000]

Brother even the top scholar can make errors and the knowledge of Islam is like a sea and that's why a hadith said something like we seek knowledge our cradle untill the graveyard. But your contribution in your first known post to me about your's Handling with an appropriate hadith the slip of the Tongue saying ' You are my Slave I am your Rab 'puts you at one of the very Knowledgeable , Mashallah , ( I know we are not Scholars or Muftis ) when I am trying to follow people like you as a student of Knowledge .

I am a fellow-servant of Allah with you and also a seeker of knowledge, and i know we'll all be continually revising our opinions 'til we reach the grave - scholars included.

Btw, just found a piece to contribute:

Abu Bakr collected these loose materials and had their
contents written on to sheets (suhuf).

The Difference belween Abu Bakr's and 'Uthman's
Collection

Abu Bakr had made one single copy from the various
verbal and written material. This copy was later kept by
'Umar and then by his daughter Hafsa.

'Uthman had many copies prepared from this copy and sent
them to various places in the Muslim world, while the original
suhuf were returned to Hafsa and remained with her until her
death.
Later, Marwan b. Hakam (d. 65/684), according to a
report in Ibn Abi Dawud, collected it from her heirs and had it
destroyed, presumably fearing it might become the cause for
new disputes.
'Uthman also kept one of the copies for himself.
This version of the text, also known as 'Mushaf 'Uthman in
fact constitutes the ijma'(consensus) of the sahaba, all of
whom agreed that it contained what Muhammad had brought
as revelation from Allah.


http://www.***********/sources/ulumquran/ulumalquran/Ulum al Quran 2.htm

We can see that the main body of sahaabah were very pragmatic and sincere in doing their best to convey the message and also to avoid unnecessary contention, the fact that they agreed that the compilation of Uthmaan (ra) was sound shows their humility and eager will to remain united upon what is most truthful and stable.

The fact that some sahabah held onto other readings but didn't go around arguing that theirs was the most authoritative and thereby create fitnah was a good thing, there is always a gem or two to be found in apocrypha - whether previous scripture, hadith, or Quran, and tracing it also gives us a context of how we came to where we are now, since apocrypha comes with rich history, some true and some false.

Here is what Dr.Haddad tells us - again, some of this is based on opinion and not necessarily 100% fact:

Sayyidina `Uthman’s Preservation of Qur’an

Notes by Dr. G.F. Haddad

Imam al-Bukhari narrates in his Sahih (6:183-184) from Anas ibn Malik (RA) that Hudhayfa ibn al-Yaman came to `Uthman at the time the people of Sham were battling for the conquest of Armenia and Azerbaijan [~year 25H] with the people of Iraq. Their divergences in Qur'anic reading had alarmed Hudhayfa, so he said to `Uthman: "O Commander of the Believers! Rescue (adrik) this Umma before they differ over the Book the way the Jews and Christians differed." Whereupon `Uthman wrote to Hafsah: "Send us the folios (suhuf) so that we copy them then we shall return them to you." Hafsa then sent them to `Uthman who ordered Zayd ibn Thabit, `Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr, Sa`id ibn al-`As, and `Abd Allah ibn al-Harith ibn Hisham who copied those folios into the volumes (masahif). `Uthman said to the group - the three Qurayshis: "If you find yourselves differing, [the three of] you and Zayd ibn Thabit in anything of the Qur'an, write it in the tongue of the Quraysh. For it was not revealed but in their tongue." They did [as instructed] and when they finished copying the folios into the volumes, `Uthman returned the folios to Hafsa, sent one mushaf to each region from those they had copied, then ordered that all other [copies] of the Qur'an in each and every folio or volume be burnt.

In his commentary on the above hadith in Fath al-Bari, at the line "when they finished copying the folios into the volumes, `Uthman returned the folios to Hafsa," Ibn Hajar says:

"Abu `Ubayd [a tashif for Abu `Ubayda al-Qasim ibn Sallam as proven below] and Ibn Abi Dawud [in Kitab al-Masahif] added: with a chain from Shu`ayb, from Ibn Shihab who said: Salim ibn `Abd Allah ibn `Umar told me:

"'Marwan used to send courier to Hafsa - meaning, when he was governor of al-Madina on behalf of Mu`awiya - asking her for the folios from which the Qur'an had been copied [kutiba minha] but she would refuse to give them to him.' Salim continued: 'When Hafsa died and we returned from her burial, Marwan sent an imperative request to `Abd Allah ibn `Umar for those folios to be sent to him, whereupon `Abd Allah ibn `Umar sent them to him. Then Marwan gave an order so they were ripped up (fashuqqiqat). He said: 'I only did this because I feared that after the passing of time, some doubter might foster doubt with regard to those folios.'

"The wording in Abu `Ubayda's narration has: 'so they were torn up' (famuzziqat). Abu `Ubayd [sic] said: 'It is unheard of that Marwan tore up the folios except in this narration.' I say: Ibn Abi Dawud narrated it with a chain from Yunus ibn Yazid, from Ibn Shihab, in a similar wording which has:

"'When Marwan was governor of Madina he sent courier to Hafsa asking her for the folios but she refused him access to them.' He [Ibn Shihab al-Zuhri] said: 'Salim ibn `Abd Allah [ibn `Umar] narrated to me saying: "When Hafsa died..."' and he narrated it [as above] and said in it: 'So he had them ripped up and burnt' (fashaqqaqaha wa harraqaha).

"And this addition also came up in the narration of `Umara ibn Ghuzayya, also an abridged one, but he, also made it part of the narration of Zayd ibn Thabit who said in it: 'So he had it washed out thoroughly (faghassalaha ghaslan)'.... And all this can be reconciled by saying that this was done with all the folios - renting, them washing out, then burning - and it is possible that the word [harraqaha] be read 'kharraqaha' (he had them rent) so that he has them first torn up then washed out, and Allah knows best."

These Suhuf were the Mushaf of Abu Bakr (RA) kept by `Umar, then kept by his daughter Hafsa the Mother of the Believers, wAllahu a`lam.


http://www.***********/history/Sahaba/Sayyidina_Uthmans_preservation_Quran.htm

 

[talibilm]

Bro @Abz2000

These stories of Marwan the governor about taking Hafsa R.A 's copies and burning it (an Important event ) though i had heard before few years but still can't find reference of it in any of the four leading Sahih hadith and any stories from Ibn Ibn Abi Dawud are better rejected since his father Abi Dawud said ' My Son is a Liar ' which i saw or heard from few including the Speaker Shabbir Ali from Canada.

But my earlier own assumption before i heard about Ibn Abi Dawud as a Liar i assumed when Abu backr (ra) compiled it , which was in a hurry Islam was within Arabia ( a poor underdeveloped ) with the short time to find all leather fresh parchments of this Large Holy Book and usage of low quality writing materials and storage facilities of Mud house of Afsa R.A the Hafsa's copy could have signs of wear and tear or worn out and was the reason for discarding it through burning. Because bits & pieces could confuse more than other things.

but when Muslims became richer by the time of Uthman R.A , as prophesied by Prophet :saws: and with better quality materials (might be imported from Europe) the Uthmanic Copies could have survived that deteroriation as found now in Tashkent.

Another Fact is If Hafsa's copy was not the similar one of Uthman'ra's Standard copy it should have been burned as well with other Parchments. But an apologetic argued he did not burn because he promised to give back to Hafsa. Even if this was SO the Caliph Uthman could have returned to Hafsa as per his promise and as the Caliph of the Ummah could have demanded back so that it be burned for the welfare of the Ummah AND In Islam we know listening to the order of these Guaranteed rightly guided Calipha's is equal to the Order of Prophet :saws: which is the Order of Allah, The Creator. As seen in communications between Fathima R.Anha & Caliph Abu Backr Al Siddique R.A when she demanded some properties But though he cried for not giving it to her (denying her) but followed the Order of Prophet :saws: not to give his property even to his beloved daughter or legal heirs except for the ummah (The Muslim Public) So My question is If Fathima R.A did not deny the Order of Calipha surely Hafsa R.a , The wife of Prophet would not have denied IF CALIPH UTHMAN R.A demanded the first compilation of Abu Backr to be returned to be burnt FOR THE WELFARE OF THE UMMAH. So he did not order so because it was the same or almost the same of his reaffirmed copy also as seen in the last hadith which is as below


Bukhari Book #60, Hadith #60

Narrated Ibn Az-Zubair: I said to 'Uthman, "This Verse which is in Surat-al-Baqara: "Those of you who die and leave widows behind...without turning them out." has been abrogated by another Verse. Why then do you write it (in the Qur'an)?" 'Uthman said. "Leave it (where it is), O the son of my brother, for I will not shift anything of it (i.e. the quran) from its original position."

 

[OmAbdullah]

Assalaamo alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh'


Please be careful, you and all sincere Muslims, from falling into such statements like their saying about the missing of verses. These are all very false statements invented by the kaafirs to attack the Holy Quraan. We being Muslims must stand strong on our steps believing that Quraan was completed by Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam in his life time along with many copies which he distributed to the companions while one special copy was placed with Hafsah rAa by the Prophet Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam himself. As Islam was spreading and more and more Quraans were needed by the new Muslims so Abu Bakar Siddeeq rAa had to make more copies from the copy with Hafsah rAa. Later Uthmaan rAa also made many copies from the same Quraan that was kept with Hafsah rAa. He (Uthman rAa) also gathered the copies written by people and burnt them to avoid any mistake. So that the only type that existed was an exact copy of the Holy Quraan placed with Hafsah rAa by the Prophet Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam himself.


Quraan is the Book of Allah which Allah managed to preserve for all generations because this is the Final Source of guidance. The mission of the Prophet Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam was to complete the Holy Quraan in all aspects and it was done in His life. Only then He left this world. No one could or can make changes in the Holy Quraan. It is safe and preserved in written form. No verses were lost. All these statements are false and came from the enemies. No true Muslims should believe them. [SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]

 

[talibilm]

Assalaamo alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh'


Please be careful, you and all sincere Muslims, from falling into such statements like their saying about the missing of verses. These are all very false statements invented by the kaafirs to attack the Holy Quraan. We being Muslims must stand strong on our steps believing that Quraan was completed by Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam in his life time along with many copies which he distributed to the companions while one special copy was placed with Hafsah rAa by the Prophet Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam himself. As Islam was spreading and more and more Quraans were needed by the new Muslims so Abu Bakar Siddeeq rAa had to make more copies from the copy with Hafsah rAa. Later Uthmaan rAa also made many copies from the same Quraan that was kept with Hafsah rAa. He (Uthman rAa) also gathered the copies written by people and burnt them to avoid any mistake. So that the only type that existed was an exact copy of the Holy Quraan placed with Hafsah rAa by the Prophet Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam himself.


Quraan is the Book of Allah which Allah managed to preserve for all generations because this is the Final Source of guidance. The mission of the Prophet Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam was to complete the Holy Quraan in all aspects and it was done in His life. Only then He left this world. No one could or can make changes in the Holy Quraan. It is safe and preserved in written form. No verses were lost. All these statements are false and came from the enemies. No true Muslims should believe them.

You could be right with your analogy between those hadiths, Sister and the below hadith including the MOST strongest Hadith of all ie the last haj sermon with 10,000's of witnesses where Prophet :saws: told he is leaving the Quran & the sunnah '' affirms that too.

Narrated Ibn Az-Zubair: I said to 'Uthman, "This Verse which is in Surat-al-Baqara: "Those of you who die and leave widows behind...without turning them out." has been abrogated by another Verse. Why then do you write it (in the Qur'an)?" 'Uthman said. "Leave it (where it is), O the son of my brother, for I will not shift anything of it (i.e. the quran) from its original position."