Are you familiar with these deradicalization efforts with children in the UK?

[cooterhein]

I was curious to see what everyone here would think of this. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/12/children-under-10-flagged-for-deradicalisation-every-day/

There is a special deradicalization program for children ages 9 and under. Overall, there is a mandate for (a statutory duty) for certain child-related authorities to report signs of extremism and at least make sure it's looked at. This goes for everyone under the age of 18, but apparently there is a special program for the very young.

There are some exact numbers that are given- the referrals have skyrocketed as of this year, although that also coincides with these reports being mandatory rather than advised and recommended. Previously, perhaps there was some question in some people's minds as to whether they should report something and who they should report to. Now it's much more clear what to do and who to talk to, and it's also required. So that's probably why it's being done so much more. As to the exact numbers that are given, 70% of those referred have to do with Islamist extremism (despite Muslims being around 5% of the UK population and around 10% of UK's young-child population) and 15% of the remainder belongs to far-right extremism (which is the leader among types of extremism that we are not very well prepared to counter....but it's clearly not what the kids are talking about most, not by a long shot). I'm sort of curious why you suppose those numbers look that way. From the start of this year to June, there have been 2,311 referrals in the under-18 category, you do the math on how many Muslims that is, and 352 of those have been in the under-10 category. This program was set up after the 7/7 attacks in 2005 (and, ironically, one of those attacks happened in a public space right across from a statue of Ghandi....I wonder if that was intentional)....but now 11 years later the program is becoming more firmly ensconced in the UK educational milieu.

There is a bit of a lack of figures where I would have liked more specificity, but that's not available here. The full-on Channel program (that's what it's called) is voluntary, and since this involves kids below the age of majority it most likely requires that their parents act on information and go through with it if they agree it requires intervention. "Many" of the kids who get flagged do not wind up in the program, "some" are but "others" just get a brief talk and that is judged to be enough. All of this is rather non-specific, and I have to read between the lines here, but it seems to be a situation where a couple thousand children get reported on for parroting extremist ideology, an unspecified number simply need to be "checked" (in the sense of a mild rebuke or reprimand, and the kid says okay I understand what's expected of me) while others are more trenchant in their beliefs that requires further evaluation, and then the parents are presumably informed of how bad it is and advised of the program and what it entails. Which they would then (less presumably) make the final decision on, given that the source is calling it "voluntary."

Of course, it is one thing for me to sit here in the United States reading numbers and sometimes-vague facts. It is quite another for Muslim parents in the UK to experience and navigate the process. So I have a couple of main questions.

What's it been like for Muslim parents and Muslim kids since 2005, with this whole program? Has the experience of it changed dramatically as of this year?

Do you think it's likely to achieve its stated purpose? And from what you know of the Channel program, what do you think of that?

And finally, what do you think of the more-recent decision to mandate these reports and cause all of this to become a 75%-more-common occurrence? Going along with that- at what point did you become aware of this program? Did you know about it way back in 2005? Did you just become aware of it this year? Is this the first that you're hearing about it now? I suppose your ability to answer most of these questions depends heavily on previous knowledge of the thing.

 

[Born_Believer]

The fact that teachers have reported children for reading the Quran or talking about in school, tells you all you need to know. This is nothing more than McCarthism era propaganda and paranoia. We are becoming a nation that treats muslims like second class citizens and muslim children like criminals.

A 2008 MI5 reports concluded that individuals from conservative and practicing backgrounds were the least likeliest to be radicalised. Do you know what the most likely example of an individual who could be radicalised was? It's someone who drinks, takes drugs and has multiple sexual partners. The fact that these "snitching" programs that have started up profile individuals as terrorists if they go to a mosque, or read the Quran is in opposition to the facts. You can further see evidence for this in those involved in the terror attacks in France or the club shooting in the US. They weren't even practicing muslims, let alone extreme muslims.

So what I think should happen is that schools should be given extra funding not to create systems which encourage spying on muslim students but to create prayers rooms and to buy more Qurans, because that's the way to go if you want to decrease and eliminate negative indoctrination.

 

[noraina]

Perhaps this all began with sincere (?) intentions, but too often such policies are abused and mishandled. Muslim youth are growing up treated as a suspect community, there's a real problem this will have the reverse effect and only alienate them further.

And, ironically, as the brother above has pointed out, those from practising backgrounds and who have religious knowledge are the least likely to be radicalised - it is those who were separated from their Muslim identity and had little knowledge of the faith who were fooled or 'brainwashed' into some misinterpreted, twisted form of Islam.

The solution is staring everyone in the face - educate yourself and others about the true teachings of Islam!

 

[Serinity]

This is very very very very bad.

This won't solve anything.

All there is need for is education on Islam. It is usually ignorants that fall for terrorism, etc. Who the hell would think Islam promotes terrorism........ Seriously, all there is need for is education, from true scholars. Not the government! Not out of malice, but it is best that The scholars of Islam wake up and speak of these issues.

 

[cooterhein]

The fact that teachers have reported children for reading the Quran or talking about in school,

From what I've read, the things that teachers are required to report mainly involve sympathies for Daesh and parroting of terror-friendly ideology likely gleaned from the Internet and yes, as you say, not from going to mosque. But I did ask for input other than what I'm reading from the Telegraph, so please tell me, what is it that's led you to believe this is a fact? The fact that innocuous religious practice is being reported- what is it that's led you to this fact? Do you have personal knowledge of this, did you hear it from someone (both of which are valid), or is there a source? (Also valid).

I also want to point out that there is a distinction in how different kids are handled, with numbers that are as-yet-unspecified to my knowledge. A report is made, but then an evaluation is made and if the behavior being reported turns out to be innocuous or is very easily handled, then no further action is needed and none is taken. It's not as if a report results in a kid being put on an actual watch list, my understanding is that it's a means of discovering and checking potential problems with misinformation so that kids don't become confused and run into problems later. It's a preventive measure that stops bad things before they start, and to my knowledge it doesn't do anything to prevent the regular practice of Islam, unless you're able to describe something real to me. That's what I'm trying to get at. If you want to make a clear distinction and show me what it really is, also show me why the thing you're describing is real. I'm not necessarily asking for a source, just give me a little more substance, please.

 

[Born_Believer]

From what I've read, the things that teachers are required to report mainly involve sympathies for Daesh and parroting of terror-friendly ideology likely gleaned from the Internet and yes, as you say, not from going to mosque. But I did ask for input other than what I'm reading from the Telegraph, so please tell me, what is it that's led you to believe this is a fact? The fact that innocuous religious practice is being reported- what is it that's led you to this fact? Do you have personal knowledge of this, did you hear it from someone (both of which are valid), or is there a source? (Also valid).

This was reported about 12-18 months ago in one of the 3 newspapers I read (the guardian, the indy and the telegraph, can't remember which but likely the former 2) and in that same time frame, I have friends who have gone into teaching and they have also been "debriefed" on what to look out for, one of which is children who talk about their Islamic practices.

Now, my point is a very simple one. If you treat a community which has done nothing wrong, as criminals, you will create an environment of "us against them". We have seen this with the rise of fascism in Europe several times before, we are seeing it again now in the 21st century. The facts remain as I have already posted on here: those who are from practicing muslim backgrounds are the least likeliest to be radicalised yet it is mosques and madrasahs (Islamic schools) which have been most targeted by the British government. Now muslim children en masse are being targeted.

This brings me to another issue and that is the issue of ISIS and how much of a threat it supposedly is. We are told that 1500 people left Britain to join ISIS and that 800 supposedly made it to Syria. There are 2.7 million muslims in the UK. If I take the raw 1500 number, that equates to only 0.06% of the British Muslim population on the verge of joining ISIS.

Over 99% of the British population do not have such designs, or at the very least, do not feel strongly enough to leave Britain for it. This isn't just a minority, this is a minority, within a minority, baked inside a niche. Yet, for the sake of this minority, millions of pounds each year are being spent on so called de-radicalisation programs which target, abuse, mistreat and ciminalises a population which is largely peaceful, law abiding and increasingly well educated/well endowed with finances. Does that sound like the healthy or right thing to do?

Take anti-terror arrest numbers from Jan 2015-Sept 2015: 315 arrests were made, only half of those were charged by the police and only 34 were eventually prosecuted in court. Almost 10 times as many people are arrested on suspicion of terrorism (all of them Muslim btw) than have actually committed a crime. This is what happens when you target an entire community, paranoia seeps into very aspect of society, including the police force, the same force which is supposed to be upholding the law not using it out of irrational fear or an enemy that doesn't exist. These arrests probably also include paranoid citizens who phone in if they've seen a muslim acting suspiciously...maybe he grew his beard too long or something :facepalm:

 

[cooterhein]

This was reported about 12-18 months ago in one of the 3 newspapers I read (the guardian, the indy and the telegraph, can't remember which but likely the former 2) and in that same time frame, I have friends who have gone into teaching and they have also been "debriefed" on what to look out for, one of which is children who talk about their Islamic practices.

Okay, that certainly is a problem, if they're simply looking for Islam. That isn't supposed to be the thing to identify and counter.

Quick question. If they were more properly looking for extremism- with changes being made as necessary- can you see that working well, as long as the right things are being looked for?

Now, my point is a very simple one. If you treat a community which has done nothing wrong, as criminals, you will create an environment of "us against them". We have seen this with the rise of fascism in Europe several times before, we are seeing it again now in the 21st century. The facts remain as I have already posted on here: those who are from practicing muslim backgrounds are the least likeliest to be radicalised yet it is mosques and madrasahs (Islamic schools) which have been most targeted by the British government. Now muslim children en masse are being targeted.

The prison population in the UK does have strong Islamic representation though, although this is due to a complex series of factors. One- about one in eight incarcerated Muslims in the UK were not born in the UK. Two- quite a lot of prisoners are incarcerated as some other religion, then convert to Islam (and this is very often a weak form of Islam that doesn't translate into serious practice). Three, the UK Muslim population skews very much in a younger direction, a bit more in the poor direction, and very much in the unemployed direction where young males are concerned. A lot goes into this other than just religion, and it's worth pointing out that recidivism for Muslims is almost 10 points lower than it is for everyone else, which is a good thing- that means Muslim prisoners, once they get out of prison, are less likely to reoffend. So there's a lot going on here, it's complex, there is a large amount of Muslims in UK prisons but it's not entirely what it appears to be on the surface.

With that being said, there is one other figure that's a bit more straightforward. Although Muslims in the UK make up about 10% of the youth population, almost 20% of the 10-17 "secure youth estate" prison population is Muslim. It seems to me that in general, the aim of this youth program is to figure out how to talk to kids and set them on the right path before they do anything that would put them exactly there, in the secure youth estate. Yes it's clearly flagging Muslims a lot more than anyone else, but it seems like a preventive measure rather than something that would cause Muslim children to commit crimes (which they currently do at disproportionate rates in this age group, again for reasons that may have nothing to do with Islam but that is the outcome that's happening). And this is the outcome being seen in the 10-17 age group of a relatively very-young population group, it might be a good idea to at least try and nip this in the bud.

I suppose this is the main thing for me. I don't see how being flagged, and evaluated, and potentially talked Out Of extremism....leads to Muslim kids committing crimes. Do you really think this leads to more crimes being committed, even though it's supposed to prevent them? Or are you suggesting that it has absolutely no effect, aside from being a giant irritation for a community?

This is a source, by the way.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-31794599

This brings me to another issue and that is the issue of ISIS and how much of a threat it supposedly is. We are told that 1500 people left Britain to join ISIS and that 800 supposedly made it to Syria. There are 2.7 million muslims in the UK. If I take the raw 1500 number, that equates to only 0.06% of the British Muslim population on the verge of joining ISIS.

Okay, couple of things. One- barely more than half of those who left the UK to join Daesh actually made it there. Why didn't all 1500 people make it there? The answer is quite simple. Lots of people are trying very hard to prevent this from happening. This is what happens in spite of every reasonable effort to stop it. Two- how many Christians left the UK in order to join a terror organization bent on global domination? Zero. That threat does not exist. And three- this was touched on in the initial source that I gave, but there has been a more recent trend in recruitment of younger kids, quite a bit younger than 18, more like the 12-16 range. This is a more recent trend, and granted kids that young are even less able to navigate international travel on their own, but this is an especially vulnerable age group that can be talked into some bad stuff a lot more easily than anyone else. Don't we want something in place that helps push back against a real threat that is increasingly specific to them? And by them, yes I mean Muslims, because Catholic and Anglican kids are not being targeted in this manner.

Over 99% of the British population do not have such designs, or at the very least, do not feel strongly enough to leave Britain for it. This isn't just a minority, this is a minority, within a minority, baked inside a niche. Yet, for the sake of this minority, millions of pounds each year are being spent on so called de-radicalisation programs which target, abuse, mistreat and ciminalises a population which is largely peaceful, law abiding and increasingly well educated/well endowed with finances. Does that sound like the healthy or right thing to do?

I'm not entirely sure if UK Muslims are more law abiding than anyone else, I very well know the unemployment situation is relatively bad and that two-thirds of UK Muslims occupy the lower one-third of the UK economic scale. But that could be improving, and it's not at all uncommon for a new immigrant population to be less well off at first, and it well could be that UK Muslims are coming along faster than some other people have been able to do. Again, it's a complex situation and it's difficult to boil it down to a single data point. With that being said....

How exactly does any of this kid-related stuff qualify as targeting, abusing, mistreating, and criminalizing? Targeting I get, it's mostly Muslim kids that are talked to. But what is it about the talking and the evaluation process that qualifies as abuse? What is abusive about it? From what I can understand, they're being told not to be extremists and evaluated in order to see if further measures should be taken....measures that don't involve any abuse or mistreatment as far as I know, and all of this seems to be a non-criminalized form of corrections that is meant to keep kids out of jail and keep them from getting any sort of record. To my knowledge, this is done by:

1) Talking to kids, about not being extremists.
2) Talking to kids in a more focused manner with parental consent and the assistance of mental health professionals, about not being extremists.
3) Kids stay out of jail and out of trouble. And if they were going to do that anyway, they still do that.

Do you really think there's a different chain of events, where this particular program is concerned, that will do the opposite of what's intended?

Take anti-terror arrest numbers from Jan 2015-Sept 2015: 315 arrests were made, only half of those were charged by the police and only 34 were eventually prosecuted in court. Almost 10 times as many people are arrested on suspicion of terrorism (all of them Muslim btw) than have actually committed a crime. This is what happens when you target an entire community, paranoia seeps into very aspect of society, including the police force, the same force which is supposed to be upholding the law not using it out of irrational fear or an enemy that doesn't exist. These arrests probably also include paranoid citizens who phone in if they've seen a muslim acting suspiciously...maybe he grew his beard too long or something

On one hand, ISIS is an actual terrorist organization that actually exists in the Muslim world, and in a way that terrorists organizations for other religions don't really exist in the West. On the other hand, that's a good point about Muslims being unfairly targeted, arrested on suspicion of a crime and never charged, feeling as if law enforcement and everyone else is suspicious of you at all times....because they actually are....

My question is, what happens as a result of this? What do Muslims do when everyone is overly suspicious of them, when they're quickly targeted for arrest and so forth?

My other question is this. Do you see the distinction between adults being arrested unfairly, and kids who are Not arrested at all, but instead questioned and talked to as if someday they Might be, in an effort to make sure they don't get arrested?

I guess that last part is really my whole thing with all of this. I see this kids program as an honest effort to prevent Muslim kids from every going to jail, and I think it has a good shot at doing what it's supposed to. My question is, what connection do you see between this particular program and an increase in Muslims being arrested? Is that the connection you see, kids get talked to at school and then later they get arrested? Because the connection I see is that kids get talked to a lot, sometimes for the wrong reasons but without any threat of arrest and always with the intent of preventing legal trouble later in life, and it can be expected to pretty much work that way. That's what I'm seeing. Why do you see it so differently?

 

[Zafran]

Draconian state policy - nothing new. Plenty of countries take absurd measures, the UK is no different.

 

[Karl]

The Liberals are crazy. Either deport all Muslims from the UK or leave them alone. This mass immigration multi cultural social engineering is madness and is only encouraging the situation to lead to civil war or revolution.

 

[kritikvernunft]

... a special deradicalization program for children ages 9 and under. Overall, there is a mandate for (a statutory duty) for certain child-related authorities to report signs of extremism ... Muslims being around 5% of the UK population and around 10% of UK's young-child population ...

"Radicalization" and a fortiori "deradicalization" cannot be defined. Any goal that is phrased in terms of undefinabilities is a lost cause. You can most likely and trivially derive that result from Tarski's Undefinability Theorem. Therefore, I believe in letting the problem fester. Just let the laws of nature have their way. Furthermore, the interests of the State and my own interests are almost never the same. I only take care of my own interests, and with total disregard of what would suite the State instead. Seriously, why would anybody lift a finger? Only the singular God, our Beloved Master, can count for eternity on our willing support!

 

[cooterhein]

The Liberals are crazy. Either deport all Muslims from the UK or leave them alone. This mass immigration multi cultural social engineering is madness and is only encouraging the situation to lead to civil war or revolution.

When all of the encouragement is being done in the interest of preventing violence, preventing civil war, and preventing revolution, how exactly does that lead to civil war and revolution?

 

[cooterhein]

Draconian state policy - nothing new. Plenty of countries take absurd measures, the UK is no different.

I take it you don't see violent extremism as an actual problem which needs a solution?

 

[Mustafa16]

I take it you don't see violent extremism as an actual problem which needs a solution?

violent extremism is a problem that needs a solution, but punishing children for talking about their religion or practicing their religion doesn't solve anything.....

 

[cooterhein]

violent extremism is a problem that needs a solution, but punishing children for talking about their religion or practicing their religion doesn't solve anything.....

Okay, so there may be some inappropriate focus on innocuous religious conversation, but there is a filtering process, there is an assessment of what's been flagged, and then further action is taken if it's deemed necessary. So, while acknowledging that there is some innocuous stuff that's being flagged, it should and probably is only the truly dangerous stuff that gets further attention. Can we talk about that stuff at all, and why would you go out of your way to not talk about the very thing that's the entire stated point of this program? Can we talk about the rhetoric that's actually problematic and assess how effective this is in addressing that?

 

[Muhammad]

and why would you go out of your way to not talk about the very thing that's the entire stated point of this program?

You've clearly missed the point if you still think such a program is effective in achieving the 'stated point'. Prevent is a failed policy. It has been derided by academics, teaching unions, students, police officers and teachers. The strategy clearly discriminates against Muslims and Islam, and very much sees the Muslim community as the enemy within. Case studies and victim statements strongly suggest these approaches are counter-productive, and are starting to erode community cohesion and damage relationships with the communities they serve. There are more than sufficient laws to allow the police and security services to detect, investigate and prosecute individuals involved in actual terrorism plots.

 

[Serinity]

It is all becoming Nazi like imo. We are treated like the Jews back in the days. Always suspected for whatever.

Perhaps we can learn something from the Jews, or not. Idk.

Take Hitler. Hitler is the "government". The "jews" are the Muslims... (in terms of situation)

we all know ISIS is a terror organisation who has done nothing but Defame Islam etc.

So what do we do?? What took the Jews out of this situation??
And Allah :swt: knows best.

 

[muslim brother]

violent extremism is a problem that needs a solution, but punishing children for talking about their religion or practicing their religion doesn't solve anything.....

as i have said in my bbc interview,blog and elsewhere..normative mainstream islam is actually part of the solution to violent extremism..i dont like the term"moderate"

the problem is takfiris and khawarij..who would even consider me as a legitimate target

 

[kritikvernunft]

I take it you don't see violent extremism as an actual problem which needs a solution?

Before looking for a solution, it is better to ask yourself if the problem really needs to get solved? If yes, why? Usually, it is better not to solve the problem, and to just let it fester. Doing nothing at all is almost always the most propitious approach. Hence, I am not in favour of doing anything at all. We should harness the power of their natural inclination to laziness, to convince people to do absolutely nothing, and possibly even less than that.

 

[cooterhein]

You've clearly missed the point if you still think such a program is effective in achieving the 'stated point'. Prevent is a failed policy. It has been derided by academics, teaching unions, students,police officers and teachers.

I haven't heard about any of these statements of derision before. Are there any sources I can look at?

The strategy clearly discriminates against Muslims and Islam, and very much sees the Muslim community as the enemy within. Case studies and victim statements strongly suggest these approaches are counter-productive, and are starting to erode community cohesion and damage relationships with the communities they serve. There are more than sufficient laws to allow the police and security services to detect, investigate and prosecute individuals involved in actual terrorism plots.

One of the stated reasons for focusing on kids more, is that Daesh is focusing on reaching kids more as a bit of a change in strategy. Is that incorrect?

 

[Zafran]

I take it you don't see violent extremism as an actual problem which needs a solution?

Oh I do but taking 9 year olds seriously is like taking teenagers seriously - a lot of teens do and say crazy things but we dont deal with them the same draconian way.
Furthermore this leaves out the non religious terrorist attacks - be it the dude who ran people over in France (nice) or the homosexual Orlando shooter - or the German afghan refugee who didnt even fast etc etc.