Why can't atheists just be wrong?

[jabeady]

[MENTION=38990]jabeady[/MENTION] I dunno if I missed it but I'm still waiting on you explaining about Sagan. I literally don't know anything about his atheistic theory so it would be nice to know what he said or wrote that made you go in that direction.

Yeah, you missed it. Rather than explain the book, myself, I referred you to a Web site that does a better job than I could. It's just a few posts after yours.

 

[jabeady]

but thats an assumption, one which is very vague. Why do you invest such a large part of your life in a belief system in which you don't truly believe in anyway? Is that not counter productive?

In summary, you're an atheist just because. That's a very poor choice.

Let's try it again.

"The basis for atheism is a lack of evidence for theism."

You say "this" is an assumption, and by "this" you apparently mean that I/we are merely assuming that there is no evidence that one or more deities exist, and that our assumption is wrong.

Very well, show us that we are wrong. Show us evidence of divine intervention anywhere in the known universe. The only requirement is that this evidence be more than mere anecdote or claim.

 

[M.I.A.]

It isn't an assumption. It is a lack of evidence. If you have evidence, bring it forth. I mean something other than your own faith, an ancient book, and a bunch of people who believe what you do. I mean actual evidence. Make an amputee's arm grow back or spell your name in stars or something. Split the moon in half and put it back together. These things apparently could happen back before we could record them on video... not so much now. I wonder why that is....



First, atheism is not a belief system. It is the lack of a belief in Gods. That's all.

Second, I don't invest much of my life into it. I do take an interest in the phenomenon of religious belief and I do that from a sociological and psychological perspective. Wouldn't you if you were surrounded by people who believe in imaginary beings running everything and dedicate their entire lives to serve them? I think you'd be pretty fascinated by that too if you were not one of them.



It is the only rational choice.

Unlike jabeady, I DO see you as delusional, and I have no qualms in saying so. You believe in an imaginary person and dedicate your life to him. If that isn't delusion, what is? I also don't take offence if you consider me spiritually blind or delusional myself to not see what you say is obvious.

i worked in an amputee ward once.. work experience.

the smell is not nice.

anyway miracles are as much about those that observe them as those that preform them..

think about that..

Unfortunately all you have to go on is David blain and Darren brown.

...who by all accounts work on tricks of the mind, slight of hand and misdirection..

if you could fluke that i dont know what you would think.

..i once opened a bottle of fizzy pop and the top spun up my hand and across my chest down my other arm.. and then fell out of my hand.

i was at a dinner table and nobody noticed..

must be something in the food.

id almost hope its not true.. nobody noticed!!

the funny thing? i was just sitting normally.

game over.

secondly,

game over.. i couldnt get past that memory.. id almost forgotten it.

physics.. i have none.

what you think truth or lie?

*edit..or joke in poor taste?

i would think most of the people you quote were imaginary people.

 

[jabeady]

It isn't an assumption. It is a lack of evidence. If you have evidence, bring it forth. I mean something other than your own faith, an ancient book, and a bunch of people who believe what you do. I mean actual evidence. Make an amputee's arm grow back or spell your name in stars or something. Split the moon in half and put it back together. These things apparently could happen back before we could record them on video... not so much now. I wonder why that is....



First, atheism is not a belief system. It is the lack of a belief in Gods. That's all.

Second, I don't invest much of my life into it. I do take an interest in the phenomenon of religious belief and I do that from a sociological and psychological perspective. Wouldn't you if you were surrounded by people who believe in imaginary beings running everything and dedicate their entire lives to serve them? I think you'd be pretty fascinated by that too if you were not one of them.



It is the only rational choice and it isn't really a choice at all. I see no evidence in a fantastic claim like Gods or Ghosts or Big Foot, so I don't believe they are real.

Unlike jabeady, I DO see you as delusional, and I have no qualms in saying so. You believe in an imaginary person and dedicate your life to him. If that isn't delusion, what is? I also don't take offence if you consider me spiritually blind or delusional myself to not see what you say is obvious.

Pygo, the problem with considering your correspondent to be delusional is that you are inherently calling him irrational, or unreasonable. What's the (layman's) point in arguing or even holding a discussion with an irrational person? If your view is that they are being irrational, then why pursue it further? Irrationality is an end in itself.

Theists have their reasons. Some of their reasons are good, some of them are bad. I can live with someone's bad reasoning; all I require is that their theism harms no one.

 

[jabeady]

anyway miracles are as much about those that observe them as those that preform them..

think about that..

No, *you* think about it.

The saying is that seeing is believing, but the truth is that believing is seeing.

Unfortunately all you have to go on is David blain and Darren brown.

...who by all accounts work on tricks of the mind, slight of hand and misdirection..

..i once opened a bottle of fizzy pop and the top spun up my hand and across my chest down my other arm.. and then fell out of my hand.

i was at a dinner table and nobody noticed..

must be something in the food.

id almost hope its not true.. nobody noticed!!

the funny thing? i was just sitting normally.

game over.

secondly,

game over.. i couldnt get past that memory.. id almost forgotten it.

physics.. i have none.

what you think truth or lie?

*edit..or joke in poor taste?

I believe you. I also know that if you flip a coin into the air and let it fall to the floor, it will land either on its front or its back. But once in a while, once in a very great while, it will come to rest standing on its edge. No miracle, just something that occasionally happens.

Now, getting back to amputated limbs: Doctors here in the US have just transplanted two arms from a deceased person onto a wounded American military veteran. If humans can do this, why can't/hasn't God bothered to do it?

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-.../former-marine-receives-double-arm-transplant

 

[M.I.A.]

i dont know?

lack of evolutionary driving mechanisms?

..the six million dollar man.

glad to know we are catching up to the tv.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Pygo, the problem with considering your correspondent to be delusional is that you are inherently calling him irrational, or unreasonable.

No. I am calling that particular belief that he holds inherently irrational or unreasonable, and only based on the evidence I have available to form that opinion. He could have evidence that he's not showing me for some unknown reason that would be convincing - but I doubt it and find it so unlikely that I feel fine calling his belief delusion.

He could also be perfectly cogent and rational on other matters. Suffering a particular delusion does not mean that you are completely insane or even remotely unreasonable on other matters. Consider a mother whose child has died, but she won't accept it and keeps referring to them as if they are still alive. Or consider the people who are convinced they have been abducted by aliens. These are not necessarily irrational people overall. They have one irrational belief, often due to emotional reaction to a traumatic event or due to upbringing.

Theists have their reasons. Some of their reasons are good, some of them are bad.

If you believe there are good reasons, what are they? And why are you not a believer then?

 

[Zafran]

It isn't an assumption. It is a lack of evidence. If you have evidence, bring it forth. I mean something other than your own faith, an ancient book, and a bunch of people who believe what you do. I mean actual evidence. Make an amputee's arm grow back or spell your name in stars or something. Split the moon in half and put it back together. These things apparently could happen back before we could record them on video... not so much now. I wonder why that is....

and some how this is going to make you believe in God??? how exactly? how are those things evidences in the first place?

Second, I don't invest much of my life into it. I do take an interest in the phenomenon of religious belief and I do that from a sociological and psychological perspective. Wouldn't you if you were surrounded by people who believe in imaginary beings running everything and dedicate their entire lives to serve them? I think you'd be pretty fascinated by that too if you were not one of them.

Like Muslims dont know Jews, atheists, Hindus, Sikhs etc dont exist - I definitely wouldn't accuse them of believing imaginary things even if I didn't believe them or disagreed with their beliefs

Unlike jabeady, I DO see you as delusional, and I have no qualms in saying so. You believe in an imaginary person and dedicate your life to him. If that isn't delusion, what is? I also don't take offence if you consider me spiritually blind or delusional myself to not see what you say is obvious.

delusion - definition - an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.

Mental disorder - bold claim even though being religious is actually a common human trait and not some delusion otherwise most people on earth would be insane.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Like Muslims dont know Jews, atheists, Hindus, Sikhs etc dont exist - I definitely wouldn't accuse them of believing imaginary things even if I didn't believe them or disagreed with their beliefs

Why not? Are you telling me that Shiva and Vishnu are real? Or you do think they believe in imaginary beings that don't really exist, but you just don't want to say it? How about people who believe in alien abductions, bigfoot, etc?

If I believed Gods existed, I wouldn't be an atheist. So of course I think you believe in an imaginary being.... and I consider that a delusion.

 

[kritikvernunft]

I haven't seen an actual Muslim push and praise Islam for being despotic and misogynistic as you did in your post above, but you are saying you see it as a great tool for that? And you see that as good?

If we look at a reasonable definition for the term despot:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Despotism
Despotism is a form of government in which a single entity rules with absolute power.

I already confirmed, indeed, that I would be perfectly ok with Our Beloved Master, the singular God, as the despot. I have no objections whatsoever to that opinion. I actually share it.

And you want to take complete control over their wombs from them so you can keep population numbers up?

If other men do not want to reproduce, I consider that as not-my-problem, while I usually sympathize with the ones who do. Concerning women, the laws of nature say that if a female can be heavy with child, then she should be heavy with child. Our jobs as males is to make sure that it turns out that way. If you do not like the way in which things work, why don't you try to participate in another mechanism of life, maybe on another planet, or in another world? The whole point of us being here, is not to questioneer the rules, but to obey to them. Why don't you just obey natural, Divine Law instead of complaining incessantly?

 

[Zafran]

Why not? Are you telling me that Shiva and Vishnu are real? Or you do think they believe in imaginary beings that don't really exist, but you just don't want to say it? How about people who believe in alien abductions, bigfoot, etc?

If I believed Gods existed, I wouldn't be an atheist. So of course I think you believe in an imaginary being.... and I consider that a delusion.

Gods no. Not because they are imaginary but because I have theological differences with people that believe in more then One God.

people who believe in Alien abductions/big foot are the similar people who believe of conspiracy theories. Not delusional. They are generally convinced that they know or have experienced a certain thing that I have not - not a big issue. Whatever......right.

Thank God not every atheist thinks like you.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Not delusional. They are generally convinced that they know or have experienced a certain thing that I have not - not a big issue. Whatever......right.

...right. Not a big issue, but if they didn't actually experience what they imagine they did, they are under a delusion. They are convinced they experienced something they didn't. How is this so different from the people who think somebody is out to get them, the people who think they have magic powers, etc?

 

[Zafran]

...right. Not a big issue, but if they didn't actually experience what they imagine they did, they are under a delusion. They are convinced they experienced something they didn't. How is this so different from the people who think somebody is out to get them, the people who think they have magic powers, etc?

plenty of people have delusional disorders, Hallucinations etc - we put them in a mental asylum - Not sure if you want to put the christian pastor, the Hindu shopkeeper or the Sikh taxi driver there though? or do you?

 

[jabeady]

If you believe there are good reasons, what are they? And why are you not a believer then?

As I said at the beginning, I hold that believers are mistaken, that they have considered but misinterpreted the evidence. There is also the concept of the idee fixe, the sometimes baseless but honest, if blind, certainty of one's position.

And, let's face it, there's truly no way of knowing, this side of death. If you and I are right, no one will ever know; if the believers are right their reasons don't matter, and for myself I'll have to hope that blaming everything on you is enough.

 

[Pygoscelis]

plenty of people have delusional disorders, Hallucinations etc - we put them in a mental asylum - Not sure if you want to put the christian pastor, the Hindu shopkeeper or the Sikh taxi driver there though? or do you?

Delusions don't have to be harmful. We only put people in mental asylums if they are a danger to themselves or others.

 

[kritikvernunft]

As I said at the beginning, I hold that believers are mistaken, that they have considered but misinterpreted the evidence.

The way in which it happens to work, is that the believers will always end up outnumbering the unbelievers, who simply fail to do what it takes to reproduce, because they believe in nonsense, instead of just sticking to the rules. Who can reasonably believe anything that these disappearing dinosaurs come up with? Seriously, if you want to die out, who is stopping you? You will wake up in Jurassic Park, because that is where all your friends are.

 

[Zafran]

Delusions don't have to be harmful. We only put people in mental asylums if they are a danger to themselves or others.

and we put them there so they can get better and resume normal life. However what does this have to do with the topic on hand exactly? what medical journal/institution actually claims that Sikhs, Hindus etc are delusional?

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Psychosis/Pages/Symptoms.aspx

cant see it.

 

[Pygoscelis]

delusion - definition - an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.

I find this an interesting definition. I note how they say typical of mental disorder, which means not necessarily of mental disorder. I also notice how they stuck the word idiosyncratic in there to defend people who believe things without good evidence in groups. I'm guessing that was put in there specifically to exclude religion. Apparently if more people believe it, its no longer a delusion according to whoever wrote this definition. So one guy who thinks he is Elvis is delusional, but 20 guys who all think they are Elvis are not? lol

 

[Karl]

Let's try it again.

"The basis for atheism is a lack of evidence for theism."

You say "this" is an assumption, and by "this" you apparently mean that I/we are merely assuming that there is no evidence that one or more deities exist, and that our assumption is wrong.

Very well, show us that we are wrong. Show us evidence of divine intervention anywhere in the known universe. The only requirement is that this evidence be more than mere anecdote or claim.

God is very handy to fill the hole of knowledge that we don't know. What created life the universe and everything? God the supreme being creator of life the universe and everything.
What is God? God is beyond comprehension and description. See, it is perfect. What are atheists going to tell their children when they ask that question? I dunno everything created itself maybe? Probably a load of random chaos out there, whatever. What happens when we die? It's lights out forever...oblivion. See that's not a good answer is it. Going to paradise if your good is a much more reassuring answer is it not?
People believe what they want to believe in. Why choose the bleakness of Godlessness?

 

[Zafran]

I find this an interesting definition. I note how they say typical of mental disorder, which means not necessarily of mental disorder. I also notice how they stuck the word idiosyncratic in there to defend people who believe things without good evidence in groups. I'm guessing that was put in there specifically to exclude religion. Apparently if more people believe it, its no longer a delusion according to whoever wrote this definition. So one guy who thinks he is Elvis is delusional, but 20 guys who all think they are Elvis are not? lol

nice conspiracy theory? I bet the guy who wrote that definition was in a delusion. (google pretty secular definition)

But seriously is this conjecture? or do you have any journal/institution that actually makes the claim that Hindus and other religious people are in a mental disorder (delusion)? For example the NHS in the UK doesn't say anything about it.