Not necessarily. If you base this opinion on events that took place after the Old Testament, then this has nothing to do with the Old Testament. But if you think the Old Testament talks specifically about Jesus, then I would say that this is a misinterpretation.
Can I follow the Old Testament in Islam?
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I have been reading the Quran and giving this question a lot of thought in the last few days. The answer now is obvious, I should accept the Quran but not accept modern Islam. Modern Islam is clearly flawed. If it wasn't, it would be a much more successful culture as early Islam was. I have no reason to conform to this flawed religion, but I do believe that one should conform to the Quran.
It is clear to me that the Old Testament (Torah=teaching) and the Quran (Islam=submission) complement each other. If one has teaching without submission, then one's own will can interfere with doing what is right. But if one has submission without teaching, then one lacks discernment and one can't tell if one is being misled and submitting to the wrong thing.
Early Islam benefited from the wisdom of Muhammad and his companions. Islam today has no such benefit and must compensate by finding wisdom elsewhere. The Old Testament is an obvious source of wisdom. So I will do my best to combine the Old Testament and the Quran into a coherent religious practice that includes both teaching and submission, and therefore includes both practices suggested by the Old Testament and by the Quran.
It is clear to me that the Old Testament (Torah=teaching) and the Quran (Islam=submission) complement each other. If one has teaching without submission, then one's own will can interfere with doing what is right. But if one has submission without teaching, then one lacks discernment and one can't tell if one is being misled and submitting to the wrong thing.
Early Islam benefited from the wisdom of Muhammad and his companions. Islam today has no such benefit and must compensate by finding wisdom elsewhere. The Old Testament is an obvious source of wisdom. So I will do my best to combine the Old Testament and the Quran into a coherent religious practice that includes both teaching and submission, and therefore includes both practices suggested by the Old Testament and by the Quran.
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Can you differentiate what you mean by "modern Islam" and "early Islam?" because Islam is Islam...there's no one else we try to emulate except the prophet pbuh and the Quran as you've stated, whether in the past or now. Now some muslims may not be the best version of islam, especially these days, but that doesn't change the message of what Islam always has been.
Sagacious savants spend their whole lives to comprehend the depth and hidden treasure of Quran e.g. Hz Umar :RA:, , a highly intelligent and sagacious companion of prophet s.a.w took 12 yrs to comprehend ONLY ONE Surah in full depth i.e. Al-Baqrah, whereas Prophet s.a.w, ,his teacher himself was alive to teach him. And you, a layman, have understood whole of the Quran in a few days...? Amazing ! Ain't. You..?
so you assume that modern Islam is lacking in the genuine characteristics of primitive Islam. Right..? So, will you explain those characteristics...?
be aware of basics thatIslam has nothing to do with culture. Your thinking is flawed.
Your statement is self contradicting here. You accept Quran and deny religion whereas religion is based on Quran
you assume that Torah is lacking 'submission' and Quran in 'teachings'. What a stupid thinking ! So write at least 10 teachings of Torah to evaluate whether or not Quran is lacking in those teachings.
So people of Torah had teachings but had no guidance how to submit themselves to to God..? So how people of Quran submitted themselves to God whereas, as you say, Quran is lacking in teachings.?
Do those words of wisdom not exist now..?
Open your eyes and see all those words of wisdom in books of ahadith.
Spending 12 years on one Surah is myopic, a poor use of time. One should have broad education to understand the world. Muhammad is a good example of someone with broad experience. He had experience in business, in religion, in leadership, in politics, and in war. Muhammad wouldn't have wasted 12 years on one Surah.
I also have a fairly broad education and experience. I am certainly not an expert on the Quran, but I have enough general understanding of the world to be able to understand the Quran in context.
I can't be sure because I don't know early Islam well enough. But as I mentioned before, I think Greek influence on Islam was harmful.
Religion has everything to do with culture. It isn't that culture determines religion, but rather that religion influences and ultimately determines culture. This is why countries that share religion tend to share many cultural things in common.
Different versions of religion can share the same books as can be clearly seen in Christianity. And even in Islam, if one looks at history, there were significantly different interpretations of the Quran.
The emphasis of Torah is teaching and the emphasis of Quran is submission. This can be seen in history itself. It is clear from the Old Testament that the Israelites had a problem with submission. And it is clear to me based on the lack of success of modern Muslim countries that modern Islam lacks teaching.
In American law, a hadith would be considered hearsay and would be inadmissible in a court of law. I agree with this reasoning because it is very difficult to prove the validity of what one person claims to have heard from another. Primary evidence is much better, and there is plenty of it in history itself. History is a direct reflection of God's will, while hadiths are nothing but what one imperfect person claims to have heard from another imperfect person. To me there is no doubt which is more valuable for determining truth.
I see your point. What is your take on the Messianic prophecies? Do you agree with the ancient Jewish understanding (Targum Jonathan and before) that the Hebrew Scriptures foretold the coming of an individual who would be the Messiah in a special sense, one of whom David, Solomon, Cyrus, for example, were but types?
Giving a good answer would take a lot of time, so I will just give a few from the Old Testament that come to mind. Note that one of the main ideas is to get one to think, even if the conclusion isn't right.
1. The sabbath is an obvious one.
2. In the story of Cain and Abel, Cain does what God asked, to raise crops, while Abel doesn't. Yet God prefers Abel's offering. My interpretation is that God prefers initiative to obedience.
3. [removed - disrespectful towards a Prophet]
4. There is much debate about the sacrifice of Isaac. My interpretation is that this was test that Abraham failed. God didn't want blind obedience, God wanted Abraham to question God which Abraham failed to do. This is why God never spoke to Abraham again after Abraham went through with this, and left it to messengers (angels) to give Abraham meaningless complements. Of course Abraham was good on average, but this was a flaw.
5. There is the story of how Jacob got Esau's birthright. The point here is that when dealing with dumb brutes, use their stupidity against them. But for this to work, one has to be persistent as Jacob was throughout his life.
6. Joseph is interesting in that he is intelligent and righteous, but he lacks independence. He served the pharaoh which brought him wealth and power, but not freedom as seen in what he has to go through to bury his father. The lesson here is that this is the price of playing the power game in centers of power, the loss of freedom.
7. The plagues of Egypt, whether done by God or by Moses in God's name, were basically terrorism against Egypt. The lesson is that terrorism is very effective against wealthy corrupt powers. It worked for Jews against Britain in allowing them to form Israel.
8. The whole exodus story is a wonderful description of human nature. How the Israelites complained endlessly about everything, as people always do. How Moses had to constantly struggle to keep these people in line.
9. In the story of the daughters of Zelophehad, they basically tell Moses that he is wrong, and Moses agrees and changes his law. The point is that even best leader makes mistakes, but he is willing to correct then. And similarly, one should always be open to changing any law if it is clear that the law can be improved.
10. God repeatedly promises success for one's descendants if one follows God's teaching. There is no mention of an afterlife, and in fact Ecclesiastes rejects the idea by saying that one can't know what happens after one dies. This message is useful for those who think deeply about morality, but is useless to those who don't. The Quran takes opposite position which is appropriate for inspiring submission. The two can be reconciled by saying that there is no proof of an afterlife, but there no harm in accepting the idea because it is fully compatible with doing what benefits one's descendants.
I assume most Muslims won't agree with my conclusions, but again the conclusions aren't the point. The point is that these stories make one think, make one exercise one's brain. The ideal person is capable of both independent thought and of submission.
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The Old Testament does have Messianic prophecies, but they aren't central to the book. Jews and Christians have radically different interpretations of these prophecies, but I think they are vague enough to be open to either interpretation. In my judgement as a non-Christian, I think that Jesus did fulfill the requirements of prophecy, but not for the reasons Christians usually give. My reasoning is that Jesus, through Christianity, saved Europe from the fall of Rome, and that without Jesus, Europe would never have recovered. This is Messianic enough for me.
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This is why we are only told to explicitly follow the Qur'an only and why other scriptures have been corrupted, now you are saying that one of the prophets have committed such sins? You're a liar. Allahu'Alam
The Qur'an is sufficient, and honestly I don't understand Arabic but I know how to read Qur'an and have read a few Tafseers in English and my own language and I'm still far off(when I say far off, I mean VERY VERY VERY VERY far off) from making the claim that I can decipher the Qur'an or make translations about it and say because I've experienced and have broad education (whatever that means) I can make my own interpretation on the Qur'an(nah, not gonna work, nope.). My head hurts when you attack a person who have studied 12 years of Surah and brush it off as 'wasting time', well people have spent all their lives trying to find the meaning of 'infinity' and some even have died from it, or people have spent a lot time to go through education. You're completely underestimating the Qur'an and Arabic is a very complex and linguistic language and does have a lot of science to it. It is *not* easy, it is not simple.
You failed to justify your tall talks
[MENTION=30692]fschmidt[/MENTION] : Lot and His Daughters : 30 Now Lot went up out of Zoar and mlived in the hills with his two daughters, for he was afraid to live in Zoar. So he lived in a cave with his two daughters.31 And the firstborn said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of all the earth.32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father.”33 So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father. He did not know when she lay down or when she arose.34 The next day, the firstborn said to the younger, “Behold, I lay last night with my father. Let us make him drink wine tonight also. Then you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father.”35 So they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose and lay with him, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.36 Thus both the daughters of Lot became pregnant by their father .37 The firstborn bore a son and called his name Moab. 2 nHe is the father of the Moabites to this day.38 The younger also bore a son and called his name Ben-ammi. 3 oHe is the father of the Ammonites to this day....... Now would you like to take 'teachings' from this incident to incest with your mother or sister or daughter (if married)
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This is great news, God is great. I'm gonna keep reading.
Not all, just some - namely the non Semitic majority Jews. The Semitic ones follow Torah. Also, I wonder if you've seen the Corey Gill Shuster vids on youtube? When interviewing Jews in Israel with the question: Are you religious? - 95% answered "no, atheist"... what's really telling if one has knowledge of Semitic bloodlines, is that those who claim to be Jews but are blonde haired and blue eyed atheists, are not even Semitic, but from the Khazar bloodlines which are descended from Japeth, not Shem.
The Con, is ON.
Seems you are receiving guidance, you are aligning your belief in theology to that of the Prophets and Messengers whom God sent to us, may Gods peace and mercy be upon them all, ameen.
I would say that the Old Testament was the Qur'an of it's time - as it was audibly recited 3 times a day, that is, until the babylonian captivity - which is when the Torah was destroyed and no child of Israel who had memorised it, allowed to live.
If it wasn't for God giving Uzair (Ezra of the OT) a death like sleep for one hundred years and bringing him back to life - after the captivity - the children of Israel would have no Torah today.
Having said that, to claim the Torah is extant as it was prior to the captivity, is a bit of a stretch. Given that Jesus pbuh had massive issues with the interpretation of passages which the rabbi's pragmatically abused to foment debt slavery in the 2nd temple, we can no doubt assume that Jesus was there to set the record straight.... thing is, that didn't happen.
Alhamdulillah.
My understanding of the latter part of the shahadah is the following. When we accept Muhammad pbuh as the Prophet and Messenger of God, we are also acknowledging the previous Prophets and Messengers whom God sent to us, starting from our paternal Grandfather, Adam pbuh and ending with Muhammad pbuh - these would no doubt include Abraham and the modern Abrahamic faith traditions.
What is important to understand is that God does not send a prophet or messenger until and unless the people of belief, have neglected their duties and turned to evil. In some cases, they also get sent with Holy Scripture, such as Torah, The Zabur (Pslams of David) the Injeel (Gospel of Jesus), and the Qur'an - the final revelation to mankind. A most insightful revelation which heralds life changing narratives and gives the reader, a chance to reconcile their existence in the sight of God Almighty. And unlike other scriptures, this one, the Qur'an, will suffer no corruptions - and so far it holds up to that challenge. Allahu Akbar.
In short,
No.
Why would you convert to Judaism, when so many Jews have become Muslims, especially in the middle east - and not through force, but through conviction that Islam is the path of the Prophets and Messengers.
The whole of Yathrib, which was a city in Arabia, was Jewish. They'd settled there a thousand years previous to the birth of Muhammad pbuh. They settled there after the captivity of Babylon, when Cyrus let the children of Israel return to their holy lands and even commanded they rebuild their temple, and sponsored it.
He (Cyrus) told the children of Israel, go back to your land and rebuild the temple, but not all went, infact only a minority went to rebuild it, while others went in other directions.
Of those who went elsewhere, there were a party of Jews who were aware of the Old Testament prophecies prior to the disappearance of the Torah during the captivity period, and they settled Arabia because they knew the final Prophet of God, would come from Arabia.
I can go on with this, but I encourage you to look into the reasonings why so many Jews have become Muslims, over the centuries.
God bless, and may He guide you to the truth, Ameen.
Scimi
EDIT: one last thing, I read the Old Testament. I consider it integral to my study of comparative eschatology. I leave the New Testament alone though. Revelations, reads like a trip. Anyone can read/interpret it how they like, that's a massive issue.
EDIT2:
The question you should dwell upon is "Is God the author of confusion?" ... or "man" ???
Point I am making is that, the Torah had disappeared, and when it returned, there wasn't a rabbi left who knew how to interpret it - it was left to Ezra to teach, and no one knew Ezra, because he'd been dead for 100 years... only an old lady who was Ezra's servant maid of only 13 years old approx before Ezra's first death, recognised his voice but her sight was blinded through age, so Ezra prayed for her and her sight returned - and she recognised Ezra and took him to meet his family... Ezra met his family, his grandson was older than he in years.
Point I'm making is this - no one knew Ezra, and Ezra suffered the indignities which the children of Israel lynched most of their Israeli prophets and messengers with.
Interpretation? Bro, you have to realise that the history of the old testament plays like a soap opera, one that has elements of the worst dramas we see play out on our tv sets these days.
Yes, the Torah was an Holy Book, but it is now a book which was once holy.
The very word Torah, mean Law... and the children of Israel, did not follow those laws properly - they abused them, and that's what Jesus pbuh had major issues with.
Like I said, Jesus pbuh wasn't able to fulfil his mission - but he is the Messiah, and his job is not done yet... when he returns, his theology and practice with be parallel to the Muslims. He prayed like the Muslims, Worshipped like the Muslims, and spoke like a Muslim, and did deeds which are extant even today as beneficial works, within Islam.
Our women, reflect the most pious woman to have ever lived, Mary, the Mother of Jesus pbuh, with the veil and modesty.
Our people, sufferring inequity and injustice at the hands of the evil powers of the world, same way all people of God suffered throughout history.
Today you don't see the Jew's under attack - nor the Christians... why would they be attacked when they are so lost in their practice (Jews) and theology (Christians) ???
The devil don't care to turn them astray, because they already are... so instead, the devil spends his energies riling up his human armies to attack Muslims in their nations.
Hasn't it always been this way?
Who can disagree?
Scimi
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Sir, Quran is simply the Torah of all mankind. God gave Torah to a specific people in a specific history. There was a purpose of it. There is some purpose of everything. But God gave Quran 1400 years ago to all mankind including the people of Israel. You know the meaning of Islam "Submission". When you are a Muslim you submit yourself to the will of God and accept the things come from Him. Since God abolished Torah and all other revelations came before Quran, and established the final religion for all mankind based on Quran, you just need to accept it as a "submitter"...
I don't know how much the Torah has changed since I don't have the original, but I am still happy with what I have. It is still enough to see that the rabbis were wrong in their interpretation of debt (prosbul) and that Jesus was trying to set the record straight. And in a sense, it did eventually happen in Christian societies where bankruptcy law was enacted to provide debt relief. This is now being repealed in America as it loses its Christian roots.
The shahadah only mentions Muhammad. I don't consider Adam, Noah, or David to be prophets based on their behavior as described in the Old Testament.
As I said, Judaism is based on the Talmud, not the Old Testament, so isn't for me. And it's fine with me that many Jews became Muslims, each person has to find their own path.
The Messianic prophecies are not central to the Old Testament, so this confusion doesn't matter. But the general confusion about the Old Testament does matter, and is the reason why further prophets were needed. I agree that most people can't understand the Old Testament and should just stick to the Quran. But those who can understand the Old Testament should take it seriously.
The Old Testament is the most realistic book about human nature that I have read. I think those who consider the Old Testament to be bad soap opera just can't accept the reality of human nature.
It is absolutely critical to understand that Torah does not mean Law, Torah means teaching. This misunderstanding is why Christians almost completely miss the point of the Old Testament.
Western culture is disintegrating and will be gone in a century. But what will replace it? I don't see enlightenment anywhere and it would be sad if the whole world sunk into a dark age. Hopefully Islam will have a reformation and produce the next great culture.
Unique perspective, brother. I could not have anticipated that answer
As I see it, Jesus as Messiah provides a unity, direction, and fulfillment to the Hebrew and Aramaic Scriptures that would otherwise have been missing. May the Lord grant us all to find wisdom and every good path.
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This is still a *******isation of the intended equity which the OT promoted, once upon a time.
No interest rates, but a one time affordable fee for a loan - on trust.
That is what is fair. Not a fluctuating interest rate which ties in the lendee to a lifetime of debt.
A can of coke in Arabia was 1SR back in 1993 when I first visited... it is still 1SR today, that is what I call fair.
The global monetary system is controlled by whom? Which banking families from which faith group? Judaism. And what state have they left the west in? Trump said it straight - trillions of dollars owed to the bankers and the Chinese... you cannot by any measure of belief, justify debt slavery and I'm sure you don't want to, as you are against it as much as I am. However, I don't think you understand how deeply rooted the world economy is to the idea of interest based banking which is an invention made popular by the Jewish bankers, through their wayward justification of it through their dodgy interpretations of the Torah.
The west cannot afford to pay back their debts and so, the worlds largest economy becomes something termed as "war economy" and I'm pretty sure tht is not what God had in mind. The west has to continuously invade and leech third world nations for their mineral wealth and more. All so they can pay back their debts. And borrow more on the promise of future conquests.
Are you sure you believe this is what God willed?
The corruptions in the OT are not just to do with debt slavery, but also how the "Lying pen of the scribes" (see Jeremiah 8 and other references too) changed the laws over time, amongst other things - Moses himself prophesied this, pbuh.
So again, if you do follow what is written, it is incumbent on you to understand that the very book you hold, tells you "I'm not the word of God, but the word of man now, and that word is faulty as sin" in so many words.
Let's not forget, fschmidt, that the Children of Israel hardly ever had anything good to say about their prophets and messengers. Did the prophets and messengers not get slandered? absued? exiled? killed? Of course they did.
The children of Israel would constantly break their covenant with God, through the acts of slander, abuse, exile and murder of those God had chosen as the prophets and messengers to the children of Israel.
Knowing this, and what is written in Jeremiah 8 regarding the lying pen of the scribes, you will still believe what you wish to? I don't understand why you would do that. Where is your power of discernment?
Khazar Judaism is based on the Talmud. Orthodox Judaism doesn't look to it.
I understand it well, and I'm telling you why I consider it an holy book which has corruptions that require years of study to understand, things like nuance and schism play their roles within the instances of context and the anthropology as well as chronology of the OT. When one reads the book linearly, like a novel, they do their intellect no justice and interpret how they wish, which is not how any holy book should be studied.
A very interesting comment. If I may, I'd like to ask you why. Personally, Herodotus' histories are the most realistic books I've read on human nature.
Torah is the oral law of Moses, and the etymology of the word is related to the Hebrew word Yareh which means to "hit the mark", the target being, the truth about God and how one relates to HIM. It's the same with any holy book, they all claim the same. But they are all not the same.
God knows best.
The prophecies regarding the end time within Islam are plentiful and provide a better narrative with which to understand the times previous generations lived and the time we inhabit now, as well as what is to come next.
It sure doesn't look pretty, but there is hope.
Scimi
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@fschmidt
What is the Greek Influence of Islam ?
What is Modern Islam ?
Kindly explain with PROOF since i want to know how accurate is your conception
I had replied here on Jewish religion to some one pointing many facts in the thread below. Kindly go through all links especially ''Did Yahweh replace the Word Allah ? Whats your view ?
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?480238-Jewish-Religion&
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?480214-Reasons-to-believe-in-the-corruption-of-the-Torah&
What is the Greek Influence of Islam ?
What is Modern Islam ?
Kindly explain with PROOF since i want to know how accurate is your conception
I had replied here on Jewish religion to some one pointing many facts in the thread below. Kindly go through all links especially ''Did Yahweh replace the Word Allah ? Whats your view ?
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?480214-Reasons-to-believe-in-the-corruption-of-the-Torah&