Who will bear your burden?

[Wim]

Quran 6:164 says “no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another”. The same line is repeated in Quran 35:18. This saying refers to the burden of the guilt of human sin. The truth that is here conveyed tells us that one who carries the guilt for his own sin cannot take upon himself the guilt of another. No sinner can bear the punishment for the sins of another and thereby relieve the other person of the guilt of their sin. There is therefore no one who is able to save you from the burden of your sins because all men are sinners. All men except one. In all of human history there has been just one man who lived free from sin. This man is Jesus Christ. He is therefore the only one who had the ability to take the punishment for your sin and thereby save you from the condemnation of eternal hell. And that is exactly what he did when he died a cruel death while nailed to a cross. In his death he took our sin so that we may go free. Now that is good news. That is very good news.

 

[sister herb]

It sounds like you preach here a different religion than Islam. It is not a good news at all. It´s against the rules of the forum.

 

[Umm♥Layth]

He is therefore the only one who had the ability to take the punishment for your sin and thereby save you from the condemnation of eternal hell. And that is exactly what he did when he died a cruel death while nailed to a cross. In his death he took our sin so that we may go free.

So because he committed no sins, he can save you from your own sins. How is this logical?

Quran 6:164 says “no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another”. The same line is repeated in Quran 35:18. This saying refers to the burden of the guilt of human sin.

It isn't a saying, it is the word of God.

The truth that is here conveyed tells us that one who carries the guilt for his own sin cannot take upon himself the guilt of another. No sinner can bear the punishment for the sins of another and thereby relieve the other person of the guilt of their sin.

It isn't talking just about guilt, it is also talking about the consequences of your actions. For example, we are not responsible for what Adam (as) did, which is what most Christians believe and a big reason why they constantly seek relief from someone else for their sins.

In Islam, we are taught to be responsible for our actions and we neither blame others for our sins, nor do we expect anyone to clean up our mess when we fail ourselves. This is directly between the person and God. If the person sincerely repents, he has a clean start. Every time. That is how merciful God is. We don't have to carry around guilt for eternity.

There is therefore no one who is able to save you from the burden of your sins because all men are sinners.

We don't need a person so save us from anything. We are fully capable of owning up to our mistakes and asking for forgiveness

And that is exactly what he did when he died a cruel death while nailed to a cross. In his death he took our sin so that we may go free. Now that is good news. That is very good news.

You already know we don't believe Jesus died on the cross. I fail to see how it is good news to think that now you are free from sin and can now do as you please without repercussions. That's not how it works.

 

[MidnightRose]

...This man is Jesus Christ. He is therefore the only one who had the ability to take the punishment for your sin and thereby save you from the condemnation of eternal hell. And that is exactly what he did when he died a cruel death while nailed to a cross. In his death he took our sin so that we may go free. Now that is good news. That is very good news.

Greetings,

So, according to what you are saying, my sins have been forgiven. I am free?

* Please note that I am a Muslim, and do not accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.*

 

[M.I.A.]

hmm.. a get out of jail free card?

except we are all still in jail.


...many men bear the sins of others. the indifferent are not the same as the absolves..

the ignorant are not the same as the innocent.


and the innocent are only so for a certain time.

..ever seen lock up?

maybe you have more to add? why we all need to be baptised?

..or what happens the second time around? because people have had 2000+ years to run up a tab.

maybe you meant that the sins you commit are no longer counted as such.. no reprocussion within your life?

and maybe that is true for a time.

i live in a mainly immigrant community. a christian preacher put up some youtube videos of his visits to our area.

he made it a point to say the local churches are of different denomination and nationality.

he actually said that the spread of islam in the.. area.. the country? worried him..

he asked for volunteers towards his cause.

..
...

he read from the book about jonah and the whale.

..
...

i dont think its salvation he promised.


men are wicked and vile things, make no mistake.

the sinless would not belong near many of us.
..
...

its a crooked place.

it puts dirt on all of us.

. il do it myself..

feels like i already turned up in my own life.

the official line is strength though.

feel free.. i dont make sense at the best of times.

but i do feel sorry for anyone compelled to follow..

cant really fault them if they make anything of it

 

[Simple_Person]

Sub'han''Allah my analysis of this guy was correct in another topic where he was supposedly coming to ask out of seeking knowledge why we see Muhammad (saws) a prophet. This confirmed it by himself that he already has branded Islam as false.

Which is why the things he brought up out of the Qur'an in that topic he couldn't understand while these simple things for the honest person seeking the truth would directly be understood.

These are miracles we witness ourselves. As whatever we say he will not understand because of misguidance.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Wim;

I am a Christian, and I am not sure how helpful these posts are. If you take a few years to get to know the guys here, you will come to understand they have a deep faith, they pray five times a day, they take fasting, modesty and charity seriously.

As you will know, the Jews are God's chosen people, we are chosen by Christ, and in Islam Allah chooses whom he wills. Now I ask the question, did the same God make a mistake when he gave us our separate faiths?

I believe scripture is far more powerful when we use it to try and change ourselves, rather than when we use it to try and change others.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Quran 6:164 says “no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another”. The same line is repeated in Quran 35:18. This saying refers to the burden of the guilt of human sin. The truth that is here conveyed tells us that one who carries the guilt for his own sin cannot take upon himself the guilt of another. No sinner can bear the punishment for the sins of another and thereby relieve the other person of the guilt of their sin. There is therefore no one who is able to save you from the burden of your sins because all men are sinners. All men except one. In all of human history there has been just one man who lived free from sin. This man is Jesus Christ. He is therefore the only one who had the ability to take the punishment for your sin and thereby save you from the condemnation of eternal hell. And that is exactly what he did when he died a cruel death while nailed to a cross. In his death he took our sin so that we may go free. Now that is good news. That is very good news.

Your own bible also states that no man is to be put to death for the sins of another.

I have never understood how a human sacrifice would be good news.

 

[ardianto]

@Eric H,

I am sure that Eric H never want to find reasons why Christianity is the truth or might not be the truth, because he has faith on Christianity. Just like I never want to find reasons why Islam is the truth or might not be the truth, because I have faith on Islam. Without faith we will doubt and start to find reasons to make us stay in our religion, or go to another religion.

I and Eric H have different faith. But we never see it as problem. We can respect our difference.

 

[M.I.A.]

Your own bible also states that no man is to be put to death for the sins of another.

I have never understood how a human sacrifice would be good news.

..you obviously dont understand the concept of eating another mans flesh..

enough for all those that would partake.

i swear to god thats what i thought of them.. the people i let in..

he deserves it apparently.

thieves and worse in my estimation.

waiting in the wings.

but they have the best answers.. so.. what could i say?

..so il keep it to myself.

 

[Simple_Person]

I am sure that Eric H never want to find reasons why Christianity is the truth or might not be the truth, because he has faith on Christianity. Just like I never want to find reasons why Islam is the truth or might not be the truth, because I have faith on Islam. Without faith we will doubt and start to find reasons to make us stay in our religion, or go to another religion.

I and Eric H have different faith. But we never see it as problem. We can respect our difference.

There is nothing wrong with having respect the differences, but when in Islam things like shirk being such a big issue on the Day of Judgement..then there is no more room for "leaving things as it is". As in the past i had a house mate, she was a Christian and did not believed Jesus being son of God. Or in other words..believing in 1 God like Muslims and Jews do. Because of that i left her as that and respected the differences as for me as long as person does not do shirk i leave them be. If they might want to know something, i will be answer best in my abilities.

So i think it is not really the argument i am right or he is right, the argument is caring enough for the son of Adam for him to not taste the punishment after Day of Judgement. That is the respect i try to have for my fellow cousin in humanity.

However as you are much older than me and for sure have more wisdom and knowledge than me and with all respect i do ask if you can share your wisdom and knowledge with me that i see something wrong while you see it right. As i MAYBE am advocating for something that is not being promoted in Islam.

 

[ardianto]

There is nothing wrong with having respect the differences, but when in Islam things like shirk being such a big issue on the Day of Judgement..then there is no more room for "leaving things as it is". As in the past i had a house mate, she was a Christian and did not believed Jesus being son of God. Or in other words..believing in 1 God like Muslims and Jews do. Because of that i left her as that and respected the differences as for me as long as person does not do shirk i leave them be. If they might want to know something, i will be answer best in my abilities.

So i think it is not really the argument i am right or he is right, the argument is caring enough for the son of Adam for him to not taste the punishment after Day of Judgement. That is the respect i try to have for my fellow cousin in humanity.

However as you are much older than me and for sure have more wisdom and knowledge than me and with all respect i do ask if you can share your wisdom and knowledge with me that i see something wrong while you see it right. As i MAYBE am advocating for something that is not being promoted in Islam.

The thread started by Wim which he compared two different conception of sins redemption. I understand if any Muslim here, including you, want to respond. But, instead of respond Wim the OP, why you challenge debate to Eric H who does not challenge us?.

Yes, I wrote my previous post with purpose to stop you asking these question to Eric H. He came to the forum not with purpose to debate. And he has great respect to Muslims and people of other faiths. So we must appreciate him through respecting his own choice of faith.

 

[Wim]

Sister herb
You say “you preach here a different religion than Islam” Yes that’s true on one level but not on another. The Quran does repeatedly affirm the inspiration, preservation and the authority of the New Testament. See Quran 3:3-4 ; 5:47 ; 7:157. By implication Muslims ought to take the New Testament and its teachings seriously.

Umm♥Layth
You ask how it is logical that someone who has committed no sins can save us from our sins. Let me explain as follows. Our sins put us in debt with God. That debt is so great that anyone with such a debt has no hope of ever being able to pay the debt. But there is just one who has no debt with God because he has not sinned. He in fact has an unlimited credit in his account and is able to pay the debt of each sinner. He will do so out of his compassion for us. There is just one condition and that is that there should be sincere repentance as well as faith. Sincere repentance involves a full acknowledgement of the dreadful reality of our sins combined with a sincere intent to turn away from our sins. Faith involves a full trust in the saving power of the death of Jesus in our place.

You say “In Islam, we are taught to be responsible for our actions and we neither blame others for our sins” I agree that blaming others is wrong. Repentance requires that we accept full ownership of our guilt.

You say “We don't need a person so save us from anything. We are fully capable of owning up to our mistakes and asking for forgiveness”. I agree that we should own up to our mistakes and ask for forgiveness. But that in itself is not sufficient for God to forgive us. A punishment is still required. Imagine a judge in a criminal court who would let everyone go free just as soon as they asked for forgiveness. Such a judge would not be a righteous judge.

You say “we don't believe Jesus died on the cross”. But how do you account for the fact that the New Testament has four different accounts describing how Jesus died on the cross? These accounts are based on eyewitness testimonies. As far as I am aware there is no credible historian who seriously doubts the death of Jesus by crucifixion. It is widely regarded as one of the best attested facts of ancient history.

M.I.A.
You wonder whether this is “a get out of jail free card” Yes it is! We are indeed getting out free from the devils jail through being set free from the condemnation of sin.
You also say “maybe you meant that the sins you commit are no longer counted as such” Exactly right. But it is conditional on true repentance.

Eric H
You ask “did the same God make a mistake when he gave us our separate faiths?” I don’t think I agree that God gave us separate faiths.
You say “I believe scripture is far more powerful when we use it to try and change ourselves, rather than when we use it to try and change others.” I agree. And I don’t think I am trying to change anyone. I am proclaiming the gospel though, which is something Jesus commanded that we should do.

Simple_Person
Interested to hear you are an ex-atheist. I had a brief brush with atheism myself. Couldn’t hack it. Something deep inside me was protesting strongly and insisting that God does exist.
You ask “Is Christianity really the truth? Based on your own will or just reality?” Yes I really believe that Christianity is the truth and not based on my own will. Truth is not established by any man’s will. How would anything be true just because I want it to be true? The ultimate warrant for my belief lies in the resurrection of Jesus. A man who lived the miraculous life that Jesus lived, who said and did the things that Jesus said and did, who predicted his own death and resurrection and then went on to pull it off exactly as he predicted, that man must be taken seriously. His claim to divine sonship is what got him condemned to death and executed. The resurrection of Jesus from the dead is God’s stamp of approval and His full vindication of all that Jesus had claimed about himself.

Aryeh Jay
You say “Your own bible also states that no man is to be put to death for the sins of another.” Jesus was put to death because he claimed to be God’s son. The Jews considered this blasphemy. You also say “I have never understood how a human sacrifice would be good news”. You could call it human sacrifice but the crucial difference here is that Jesus became a sacrifice through his own free choice. He was not a victim of a miscarriage of justice. He chose to go to the cross, motivated by love for men and women lost in sin, who had no other hope of a saviour.

ardianto
You say “I never want to find reasons why Islam is the truth or might not be the truth, because I have faith on Islam.” I cannot identify with this kind of sentiment. It seems thoroughly irrational to me. I am a Christian because I believe that there are compelling reasons to believe in Jesus, that what he claimed about himself is truth. I could never be a christian without good reasons to believe.

 

[Umm♥Layth]

Umm♥Layth
You ask how it is logical that someone who has committed no sins can save us from our sins. Let me explain as follows. Our sins put us in debt with God. That debt is so great that anyone with such a debt has no hope of ever being able to pay the debt. But there is just one who has no debt with God because he has not sinned.

We don't have debts. Here are only a few examples from the Quran where Allah clearly states that he forgives, directly. It is He Who accepts repentence from His servants and pardons evil acts and knows what they do. (Surat Ash-Shura, 25)

Whether you reveal a good act or keep it hidden, or pardon an evil act, Allah is Ever-Pardoning, All-Powerful. (Surat An-Nisa, 149)


those who, when they act indecently or wrong themselves, remember Allah and ask forgiveness for their bad actions (and who can forgive bad actions except Allah?) and do not knowingly persist in what they were doing. (Surat Al ‘Imran, 135)


The Jews and Christians say, ‘We are Allah’s children and His loved ones.’ Say: ‘Why, then, does He punish you for your wrong actions? No, you are merely human beings among those He has created. He forgives whoever He wills and He punishes whoever He wills. The kingdom of the heavens and the earth and everything between them belongs to Allah. He is our final destination.’ (Surat Al-Ma’ida, 18)

Over and over in his holy book he repeats that he is Ever-Pardoning.

As far as your accounts about Jesus supposedly dying on the cross, your accounts are not traceable, they are anonymous. Matthew who? Mark who? Luke who? John who? Who were they? When did they write? Did they personally know Jesus Christ? Did they meet him? Did they walk with Jesus Christ, did they Eat with Jesus Christ? The answer is NO.

They don't even have last names. How can you possibly trace them back? The gospels were all written 40-80 years after the death of Jesus and it was all hearsay, not direct information. One can hardly consider these accounts reliable. The main reason I left Christianity was because I could not accept that somebody I loved so dearly could be killed for something I did. That is unfair and God is not Unjust!

Allah forgives directly, he pardons us because he loves to pardon us and we don't need anyone else to suffer because of what we do. A person who commits no sin, gets no consequences and no punishment. Jesus is safe and sound and Allah would have never permitted somebody so pure to be hurt in such a manner.

That is all from me, I don't wish to have a debate about this subject.

Have a peaceful day

 

[MidnightRose]

Hello again,

Why didn’t you answer me in your latest response? Was it that you were trying to think of a way to cover up your deception with this?

There is just one condition and that is that there should be sincere repentance as well as faith. Sincere repentance involves a full acknowledgement of the dreadful reality of our sins combined with a sincere intent to turn away from our sins. Faith involves a full trust in the saving power of the death of Jesus in our place.

Due to this (first post):

...and thereby save you from the condemnation of eternal hell. And that is exactly what he did when he died a cruel death while nailed to a cross. In his death he took our sin so that we may go free.

Based off of what you just told a member above, this "In his death he took our sin so that we may go free"is a deceptive statement. Rather, it is a blatant lie. You initially told us he took my sin. Now you tell me that he didn’t take my sin.

I don’t believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I am emphatically denying him as my Lord and Savior. That is a sin.

It’s evident that this cruel death of his that you mention didn’t free everyone.

You come on this forum and lie to everyone. Then you say that you can’t respect Muslims. Amazing.

:threadclo