PhD thesis: The earth is flat! An example of how religion and science doesn't mix wel

[fromelsewhere]

Here is an article that shows a clear example of what happens when people try to take religious texts very literally and apply it to the laws of nature. It doesn't work! It leads to wacky ideas that have long since been proven to be false such as that the earth is flat, that it is young (a few thousands of years old), that it is immobile and fixed at the center of the universe, that the stars are mere ornaments in the sky, and so on and so forth...

http://gulfnews.com/opinion/thinkers/phd-thesis-the-earth-is-flat-1.2009202

"Last week, a huge scandal rocked the Tunisian and Arab scientific and educational world: a PhD student submitted a thesis declaring Earth to be flat, unmoving, young (only 13,500 years of age), and the centre of the universe..."

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you fromelsewhere;

I firmly believe that God created the universe and life, it is up to science to try and understand how this happened. If evolution ever happened, I firmly believe hat it could never happen without guidance from God. But I am not convinced that evolution is a valid explanation for life on earth.

In the spirit of searching for God,

Eric

 

[fromelsewhere]

@Eric H ,

Do you believe that God created the universe in 6 days? If so, how old do you think the earth (and universe) is?

As for the bit about evolution, you should know that evolution does not explain how life started out on earth but simply explains how life changes to better adapt to its environment through the mechanism of "natural selection." There is a similar mechanism called "artificial selection" which is when humans breed a particular animal or plant to produce specific traits. This is how we got dogs from wolves or goldfish from carps. "Artificial selection" works much faster than natural selection, but it demonstrates that living creatures do indeed have a certain amount of genetic variability that allows us (or nature) to create over time different living beings of a different species.

 

[ardianto]

Assalamualaikum. Greeting everyone.

One thing that I am curious about that student conclusion which she believe that earth is flat. Does it come from her own research?. Or she just blindly follow a Muslim figure who says that earth is flat, then she seeked 'evidences' to support that Muslim figure opinion?.

I remember the case that ever happened in Indonesia when a small Muslim group issued 'fatwa' that according to Islam the sun rotates the earth. One of them even issued a book about it. But from what I have noticed they made conclusion that 'according to Islam the sun rotates the earth', not because they did their own research, but because they blindly follow a sheikh in Arabia who said that the sun rotates the earth.

Back to that student. If she made conclusion that earth is flat based on her own research, we have to appreciate her although we disagree. But if that just because she blindly follow someone who think like that, ... hmm ..., we have to realize that figure/group fanaticism is still strong in the Muslim world.

 

[fromelsewhere]

One thing that I am curious about that student conclusion which she believe that earth is flat. Does it come from her own research?. Or she just blindly follow a Muslim figure who says that earth is flat, then she seeked 'evidences' to support that Muslim figure opinion?.

Back to that student. If she made conclusion that earth is flat based on her own research, we have to appreciate her although we disagree. But if that just because she blindly follow someone who think like that, ... hmm ..., we have to realize that figure/group fanaticism is still strong in the Muslim world.

I really don't know how she came up with that conclusion but it is simply wrong.

As Galileo Galilei once said:
“I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.”

His other great quote: “Eppur si muove,” meaning, "And yet it [the Earth] moves." He apparently uttered these words after his trial in front of the Roman Inquisition... he had to deny his cosmological theories to avoid being burnt at the stake as had been the case years earlier for the unfortunate Giordano Bruno.

 

[Serinity]

The Earth is not flat, and the Earth rotates around its axis. This does not contradict Islam.

And as for the 6 days. It is wrong to assume it to be 6 earthly days because we know time to be relative. Allah :swt: could make 1 day, a thousand years.

The only difference is that we infer Allah :swt: , and rightly so. For I do not believe that this Universe could could be created without Allah :swt: .

Allah forbids us not from using our intellect - rather He :swt: commands us to think / use our intellect.

It is wrong to judge Islam based on other religions. Islam commands you to use your intellect, and on the day of judgment, one'd be regretful for not using reason and listening.

Allah :swt: says (interpretation of the ayah): 67:9-10

They will say," Yes, a warner had come to us, but we denied and said, ' Allah has not sent down anything. You are not but in great error.' " (67:9)
And they will say, "If only we had been listening or reasoning, we would not be among the companions of the Blaze." (67:10)

Allahu alam.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you fromelsewhere;

Do you believe that God created the universe in 6 days?

I believe that God created the universe in six days, But God does not live on a planet whose days are limited to twenty four hours. How would God measure a day in his life? I don't know, it could be twenty four hours, it could be a billion years. Days and time seem to loose their meaning when you think about God and infinity.

I think there is another reason that God said he created the universe in six days, and it is because he rested on the seventh. Mankind is to toil and work for six days, and he is to dedicate the seventh day to God, the Sabbath.

As for the bit about evolution, you should know that evolution does not explain how life started out on earth but simply explains how life changes to better adapt to its environment through the mechanism of "natural selection."

We look at life on Earth today, then we extrapolate back about three and a half billion years to a first life, and evolution then seems to be a valid explanation of the diversity and complexity of life we see today. But I am not convinced.

There is a similar mechanism called "artificial selection" which is when humans breed a particular animal or plant to produce specific traits.

Humans are the intelligence behind this kind of evolution, and they have goals in mind.

This is how we got dogs from wolves or goldfish from carps. "Artificial selection" works much faster than natural selection, but it demonstrates that living creatures do indeed have a certain amount of genetic variability that allows us (or nature) to create over time different living beings of a different species.

But it cannot demonstrate how we get a wolf from bacteria.

Religion is to try and have an understanding of God's purpose for us. Science is trying to understand the mechanisms of the universe and life, so science and religion can still survive together.

In the spirit of searching for God.

Eric

 

[sister herb]

We need to remember that when we are looking for the truth, science is only our tool to seek it. With it we create our theories how this and that is (or how we understand it) but we create new theories all the time and they might be different than the old ones. How we can say the science is the truth when it changes when our understanding increases? The scientific truth today might be false tomorrow.

 

[talibilm]

The Noble Quran never claimed any where clear Cut that the Earth is flat or sphere which is the most right thing in the wisdom of Allah , The Creator , since myself after 1400 years after the revelation of the noble Quran and even after 10,000 folds of scientific development even myself while flying at 30-40000 feet, still could not find any spheric curve that would satisfy ME that the earth is spherical so we believe Nasa bluntly on such matters , ^o)

If Allah clearly told that the earth was sphere and even if Prophet :saws: who could have seen the earth from the skies said it was a sphere, do you know what could have happened ? The Pagan Arabs then would have constructed THE tallest tower to climb (like Pharaoh Ordered his construction minister Hamaan for seeing Allah because Moses (pbuh) said Allah is in the skies) and see was it real ? That would lead them only to waste their Precious TIME only thinking on this single word and still cannot come to any conclusion untill a satellite photographed it FROM SPACE and even a a Modern Astronomical Telescope found in 16- 17 th century would not have helped untill we travelled to Space to an altitude of more than 100km above EARTH since even myself while flying at 30-40000 feet, still could not find any spheric curve that would satisfy ME that the earth is spherical. So the result could have been the pagans would have rejected the Noble Quran as a Lie and we would have been worshipping some idols ;D now

So that's why Allah says in the Noble Quran to the people not to ask too many questions and if it was answered plainly to them it will land them in more problems So The ALL WISE, Allah knew VERY WELL what to reveal ? & what not to reveal ? & what to leave it 'VAGUE' ? and how to address it ( The RIGHT DOSAGE OF KNOWLEDGE to the camel herders and bedoiuns who do not know the meaning to the word 'science" OR OVER DOSAGE WOULD HAVE KILLED THEM- their faith ) so that they became believers that changed them like 'Sand into gold'' ( The Gentiles & Pagans, Camel, Sheep herders to the rulers sitting on Throne of Caeser 's Ruling the world in 30-35 years) Subhanallah


,So the Prophet(pbuh) rightly commented this in his Last haj sermon few months before his demise

'' ....................... I leave behind me two things, the Quran and the Sunnah (Hadith), and if you follow these you will never go astray. All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listened to me directly. Be my witness, O Allah, that I have conveyed your message to your people.''


But there is a hint in the Noble Quran for the Earth Not to be a Flat Earth since Allah says something like this Earth would be pounded and made into a flat earth on the day of Judgement (implying its not flat now) and people will be given sharp sight (like a telescope ) so that they will see how Bush being questioned in USA while standing in East Asia.

 

[fromelsewhere]

The point is that some people even nowadays still believe that the Earth is flat, a few thousands of years old, at the center of the universe, and so on. There is NO reason to believe these things anymore as we have a tonne of evidence that these things are not true. People who try to use religion to justify why they believe in these things that clearly go against all the evidence we have are making a fool of themselves. Believing in a religion should not require us to suspend our sense of reasoning and logic.

 

[Bobbyflay23]

The Earth is not flat, and the Earth rotates around its axis. This does not contradict Islam.

And as for the 6 days. It is wrong to assume it to be 6 earthly days because we know time to be relative. Allah :swt: could make 1 day, a thousand years.

The only difference is that we infer Allah :swt: , and rightly so. For I do not believe that this Universe could could be created without Allah :swt: .

Allah forbids us not from using our intellect - rather He :swt: commands us to think / use our intellect.

It is wrong to judge Islam based on other religions. Islam commands you to use your intellect, and on the day of judgment, one'd be regretful for not using reason and listening.

Allah :swt: says (interpretation of the ayah): 67:9-10

They will say," Yes, a warner had come to us, but we denied and said, ' Allah has not sent down anything. You are not but in great error.' " (67:9)
And they will say, "If only we had been listening or reasoning, we would not be among the companions of the Blaze." (67:10)

Allahu alam.

Minecraft is flat and minecraft has a accurate representation of science dude

 

[Serinity]

Minecraft is flat and minecraft has a accurate representation of science dude

lol

But seriously, science is the study of the universe. The tools we have, etc. sometimes are flawed.

It is weird for people to take science as a religion. It is like taking the study of other sciences as a religion.

Allahu alam.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you fromelsewhere;

People who try to use religion to justify why they believe in these things that clearly go against all the evidence we have are making a fool of themselves.

The person in question tried to form a scientific argument for their case, and not a religious argument. This is from the link you provided..

Going even bolder and further, the student explicitly rejected the physics of Newton and Einstein, the astronomy of Copernicus and Kepler, the cosmology of the Big Bang, the main models of atmospheric and geological activity, and most of modern climatology.

The student submitted her thesis after five years of work; it was then sent to two assessors, thus passing the first stage of approvals. The reports were expected soon, for the thesis defence to be scheduled.

This new scandal is much worse, because it does not come from a cleric (that was bad enough) but rather from a PhD student in science, her supervisor held the Professor rank (the highest in academia), and they were explicitly rejecting major parts of modern science.

It appears they were trying to use science to challenge science, so I am not sure why you would object to people challenging existing theories. This is no different to an atheist writing a science paper; that could be used to try and disprove the existence of God.

Believing in a religion should not require us to suspend our sense of reasoning and logic.

Reason and logic can also lead us to the conclusion; that creation could only happen through God.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

 

[Simple_Person]

The point is that some people even nowadays still believe that the Earth is flat, a few thousands of years old, at the center of the universe, and so on. There is NO reason to believe these things anymore as we have a tonne of evidence that these things are not true. People who try to use religion to justify why they believe in these things that clearly go against all the evidence we have are making a fool of themselves. Believing in a religion should not require us to suspend our sense of reasoning and logic.

You are SERIOUSLY OBSESSED with religion and to my knowledge especially Islam. You already have stated that you do not want to share anything personal on a public forum, but yet you share YOUR OPINION in a public..that is also something personal . What i still fail to grasp is ..WHY ARE YOU SO OBSESSED with religion?

There are Muslims that believe if you CLAIM God doesn't exist you deserve to be killed =_=!, there are also Muslims that if you disagree with THEIR opinion, you have become a "kafir", there are also Muslims that think ..praying, paying, zakaat, going to haij, but now and then lying, cheating, gossiping, slandering..is acceptable..there are also Muslims that say praying is not necessary as long as you believe in Allah and his Messenger, there are also Muslims that believe Islam needs to be changed and it is violent religion..there are Muslim women that marry non-Muslim men and do not see it as zina, while there are also Muslim men that marry women who are not Muslim, Christian or Jews and see that not as zina. There are Muslims who are convinced being homosexual is rather a "gift" of Allah and should be practiced. There are Muslim women who are convinced that they should be the imaam also before men. There are Muslim women who are convinced that wearing tight clothes no hijab, doing plastic surgery to enhance their beauty is acceptable, while there are Muslim men who are convinced they can go to the gym to work out wear tight jeans and show their muscles out in the public to women.

In other words among Muslims there are some many MESSED UP Muslims. If you try to go in discussion and try to make them follow, logic, rationality and reason, they see you as if you are a "radical"-Muslim, just because you try to warn them..brother/sister..beware Day of Judgement will come and you will stand on your own..think and ponder about your actions. However there among those Muslims that take Day of Judgement as something "not important" or just "invented".

My advice to you, let it go bro..let it gooo..Human beings these days, Muslim, Christian, Jew, Agnostic, Atheist, Buddhist, Hindu..etc are CONFUSED & MESSED UP!! Let go of your obsession about Islam, you will only get annoyed by it. Go do something that you enjoy doing it. For your also is YOLO (You Only Live Once), you are wasting your time spending discussing religious issues, while you yourself are 100% convinced Islam is false..go have "fun" whatever you like to do..every second counts..every minute counts.

You will regret when you are on you are almost about to die, that you have not "enjoyed" life, rather being obsessed with Islam, while you are convinced of Islam being false. Off course you are ENTITLED TO YOUR OPINION on this, but let it go..delete your account ask yourself why are you spending so much time on people who already disagree with you and do not see eye to eye whatsoever.

I really feel SORRY for you, with all honesty. Spending so much time on this forum ..wasting time..with people YOU SEE as already "deluded".

 

[fromelsewhere]

Greetings Eric H,

The person in question tried to form a scientific argument for their case, and not a religious argument. This is from the link you provided..

The person in question would not have believed that the Earth was flat (and the other weird theories she had) if it weren't for her religious views.

It appears they were trying to use science to challenge science, so I am not sure why you would object to people challenging existing theories. This is no different to an atheist writing a science paper; that could be used to try and disprove the existence of God.

It certainly does not appear that she was using science, as all of the evidence points to a spherical earth that is billions of years old and that spins on its axis and orbits the sun.

 

[fromelsewhere]

You are SERIOUSLY OBSESSED with religion and to my knowledge especially Islam. You already have stated that you do not want to share anything personal on a public forum, but yet you share YOUR OPINION in a public..that is also something personal . What i still fail to grasp is ..WHY ARE YOU SO OBSESSED with religion?

There are Muslims that believe if you CLAIM God doesn't exist you deserve to be killed =_=!, there are also Muslims that if you disagree with THEIR opinion, you have become a "kafir", there are also Muslims that think ..praying, paying, zakaat, going to haij, but now and then lying, cheating, gossiping, slandering..is acceptable..there are also Muslims that say praying is not necessary as long as you believe in Allah and his Messenger, there are also Muslims that believe Islam needs to be changed and it is violent religion..there are Muslim women that marry non-Muslim men and do not see it as zina, while there are also Muslim men that marry women who are not Muslim, Christian or Jews and see that not as zina. There are Muslims who are convinced being homosexual is rather a "gift" of Allah and should be practiced. There are Muslim women who are convinced that they should be the imaam also before men. There are Muslim women who are convinced that wearing tight clothes no hijab, doing plastic surgery to enhance their beauty is acceptable, while there are Muslim men who are convinced they can go to the gym to work out wear tight jeans and show their muscles out in the public to women.

In other words among Muslims there are some many MESSED UP Muslims. If you try to go in discussion and try to make them follow, logic, rationality and reason, they see you as if you are a "radical"-Muslim, just because you try to warn them..brother/sister..beware Day of Judgement will come and you will stand on your own..think and ponder about your actions. However there among those Muslims that take Day of Judgement as something "not important" or just "invented".

My advice to you, let it go bro..let it gooo..Human beings these days, Muslim, Christian, Jew, Agnostic, Atheist, Buddhist, Hindu..etc are CONFUSED & MESSED UP!! Let go of your obsession about Islam, you will only get annoyed by it. Go do something that you enjoy doing it. For your also is YOLO (You Only Live Once), you are wasting your time spending discussing religious issues, while you yourself are 100% convinced Islam is false..go have "fun" whatever you like to do..every second counts..every minute counts.

You will regret when you are on you are almost about to die, that you have not "enjoyed" life, rather being obsessed with Islam, while you are convinced of Islam being false. Off course you are ENTITLED TO YOUR OPINION on this, but let it go..delete your account ask yourself why are you spending so much time on people who already disagree with you and do not see eye to eye whatsoever.

I really feel SORRY for you, with all honesty. Spending so much time on this forum ..wasting time..with people YOU SEE as already "deluded".

Salaams Simple_Person,

The purpose of a public forum is to exchange ideas and opinions. This is what I do, as if I were to have these discussions in person, I would get harassed non-stop.

As for the rest of your blah blah about the Day of Judgement and enjoying life, I would advice that you take your own advice and leave people share their opinions on this (and other) public forums in peace.

 

[fromelsewhere]

lol

But seriously, science is the study of the universe. The tools we have, etc. sometimes are flawed.

It is weird for people to take science as a religion. It is like taking the study of other sciences as a religion.

Allahu alam.

Yes, the tools are sometimes flawed and our theories may be flawed as well, but with time, as our tools improve and scientists come up with better theories that have better predictive power, the science gets better and better. Science evolves over time as we get to understand our world better. The big advantage of science is that it is independently verifiable, so people of different cultures, races and whatnot can all come to the same conclusions by studying the evidence and repeating the experiments.

Science does not replace religion because science only deals with the natural, materialistic world... things that can be seen/measured/experienced through some force, and so on. Religion, on the other hand, deals to a large extent with the 'supernatural'... things like jinns, angels, and so on. These things cannot be measured/quantified by scientific means.

What I am therefore arguing for is that we should avoid mixing the two together because they are quite different, and people come up to ridiculous conclusions such as that the earth is flat if they try to do science with their religious beliefs.

 

[Simple_Person]

Salaams Simple_Person,

The purpose of a public forum is to exchange ideas and opinions. This is what I do, as if I were to have these discussions in person, I would get harassed non-stop.

As for the rest of your blah blah about the Day of Judgement and enjoying life, I would advice that you take your own advice and leave people share their opinions on this (and other) public forums in peace.

Dude, there is sharing ideas and opinions and there is this idea of you already are "correct" and i am bringing this up..so i can win the discussion.

You try to make things look like so civilized as if this is the discussion based on intellectual debate/discussion, rather it only is looking as if you are tying to disprove Islam. I welcome intellectual debate/discussion, but i actively reject this mentality of yours of trying to want to disprove Islam..in other words..spreading propaganda.

Based on what do i say this?

Here is an article that shows a clear example of what happens when people try to take religious texts very literally and apply it to the laws of nature. It doesn't work!

People who try to use religion to justify why they believe in these things that clearly go against all the evidence we have are making a fool of themselves. Believing in a religion should not require us to suspend our sense of reasoning and logic.

You really really really have personal issues with religion. Maybe your family has disowned you and you have taken as your life mission to attack/disprove Islam or religion in general. Maybe you have lost a loved one and thus are trying to attack /disprove Islam or religion in general.

So again, my advice strongly is go fix your personal issues first because when i die and when you die, religion and Islam most probably will still exist. People with your mentality only put doubt in the hearts of Muslims who already are lazy to do research and in the end leave religion because you have something against religion and try to ruin it for other people as well.

You bring too much emotions to a debate that says leave out emotion. Have you ever wondered MAYBE..JUST MAYBE those "Moslems" are right and i am wrong? And if they are right and i am wrong, how come they are right and i am wrong?

The state as you are in now, you can find 1000 excuses why YOU are right and Muslims are wrong. However that is the wrong approach, the right approach with everything is find the excuse why YOU are wrong and the discussion partner is right. Because I HAVE DONE THAT AND TRIED HONESTLY to follow that path that Islam might be wrong, but every time i found logic, rational and reasonable argument that refuted those arguments. From evolution theory, to even as a agnostic approach..time after time religion after religion was proved wrong and ONLY Islam stood strong. But all the argument of you and people like minded is based on some "feeling" that "naah most probably it is not that.."..

"And the Day the wrongdoer will bite on his hands [in regret] he will say, "Oh, I wish I had taken with the Messenger a way." Qur'an 25:63

"[For such is the state of the disbelievers], until, when death comes to one of them, he says, "My Lord, send me back" Qur'an 23:99

"Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe." Qur'an 2:6

These AND MANY MANY more ayaat in the Qur'an are VERY VERY SERIOUS accusations towards one who does not believe.

Even this..

"This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah -" Qur'an 2:2

This is a HUGE CLAIM..that it says there is NO DOUBT..How come this book makes SUCH A HUGE CLAIM!!! What is going on in your head and heart that doesn't take all those serious claim also serious?? What if they are true and you disregarded it as some playful thing..later on it just happened to be as it is? If it was indeed NOTHING and we die and there is nothing nobody loses..but there IS A CLAIM..and such a SERIOUS THREAT should not be taken lightly you know. But again ..this answers your approach..

"Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe." Qur'an 2:6

 

[fromelsewhere]

You try to make things look like so civilized as if this is the discussion based on intellectual debate/discussion, rather it only is looking as if you are tying to disprove Islam. I welcome intellectual debate/discussion, but i actively reject this mentality of yours of trying to want to disprove Islam..in other words..spreading propaganda.

How am I trying to disprove Islam? Please explain... (Unless you think that science goes against Islam?)

This is a HUGE CLAIM..that it says there is NO DOUBT..How come this book makes SUCH A HUGE CLAIM!!! What is going on in your head and heart that doesn't take all those serious claim also serious?? What if they are true and you disregarded it as some playful thing..later on it just happened to be as it is? If it was indeed NOTHING and we die and there is nothing nobody loses..but there IS A CLAIM..and such a SERIOUS THREAT should not be taken lightly you know. But again ..this answers your approach..

"Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe." Qur'an 2:6

Sigh... I am tired of these kinds of 'threats' of disbelief. I want evidence to believe! Threats have 0 value in convincing me

 

[noraina]

Wa alaykum assalam,

Okay, I think we all accept this thesis is a strange exception to the norm - which is why it has made it into the news in the first place. The vast majority of Muslims have no problem in acknowledging the fact that the earth is not flat.

We can't label an entire religion based on what someone who is a believer does - people can have their own interpretations which are wildly wrong.

Science is a valuable source of knowledge and the Qur'an even uses scientific facts as a way to reveal to us the signs of Allah swt's existence. Muslims have long used science to understand the world around them.

To be honest, it's only in the past 200 years or so that people have begun to see science and religion as pitted against each other to prove which is right or not, particularly in Western countries.

And I think we forget science is not a universal 'truth'. Even theories accepted now may be disproved in the future. It is a constantly evolving and developing form of knowledge and so it strikes me as ironic when some people view it as a set of religion beliefs in themselves and give it that infallibility.

For Muslims (and you're going to disagree, I know) Islam is that ultimate truth. And science is a way to document the glory of Allah swt and understand that ultimate truth. And in the *rare* event science and religion contradict, we will look to Islam for guidance because as people our reason can only go so far.