PhD thesis: The earth is flat! An example of how religion and science doesn't mix wel

[Simple_Person]

How am I trying to disprove Islam? Please explain... (Unless you think that science goes against Islam?)

Science does NOT contradict Islam. But in another thread you FEEL as if Muslims are bending the ayaat towards religion. If you ask Muslims, about many ayaat, they do NOT know.

Just recently an example of the prophecies of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) about the end times.

===========Hadith=========

"The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said, "There are two types of people who will be punished in Hell and whom I have not seen: men having whips like the tails of cows and they will be beating people with them, and, women who will be dressed but appear to be naked, inviting to evil; and they themselves will be inclined to it. Their heads will appear like the humps of the Bactrian camel inclined to one side. They will not enter Jannah and they will not smell its fragrance which is perceptible from such and such a distance."

Source used: https://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/18/123

This man some 1400 years ago, came with this HUGE CLAIM that there will come a time that women will be dressed but naked. If you say that these times it doesn't fit this narration, then FOR SURE you are a liar.

Another example.

=========Hadith==========
“By the One in Whose Hand is my soul! The Hour will not be established until predators speak to people and until the tip of a man’s whip and the straps on his sandal (shoe) speak to him, and his thigh informs him of what occurred with his family after he left.”

Source used: https://thedirorg.wordpress.com/2014/11/13/the-talking-shoe-prophecy/

How is this bending religious text and saying to science?

======Hadith=========

The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) came out one day to the people, and a man came to him and said: ‘O Messenger of Allah, when will the Hour be?’ He said: ‘The one who is asked about it does not know more than the one who is asking. But I will tell you of its portents. When the slave woman gives birth to her mistress, that is one of its portents. When the barefoot and naked become leaders of the people, that is one of its portents. When shepherds compete in constructing buildings, that is one of its portents. (The Hour) is one of five (things) which no one knows except Allah.’ Then the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) recited the words: “Verily, Allah, with Him (alone) is the knowledge of the Hour, He sends down the rain, and knows that which is in the wombs. (to the end of the Verse).”[31:34]

Source used: https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah/36/119


How is this ME or any Muslim "bending" things to make so called sense of what is going on? You have EYES..and you can make your own conclusion, but i have a strong conclusion that you will not admit. If feel REALLY REALLY REALLY sorry for you, because there are people who have discussions but when they cannot explain it ..they say..."you got a point there". For you no matter if we throw all the proof and evidence right in your face and you in no way can doge it..you will still try to find a way out of it.

"Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment." Qur'an 2:7

 

[noraina]

Blind belief or faith is never encouraged and in fact is dangerous, as it makes people vulnerable to the wrong interpretations and messages from others who seek to exploit any religious devotion or fervour. We have seen this countless times, across all religions.

As Muslims, we are told to use our intellect and there are so many hadiths of our Prophet :saws: telling the believers to seek knowledge - it is given such a high priority. The more we learn, the more we can understand the word and wisdom of Allah swt and the more we can improve the world around us.

And an interesting point - I think the flat-earth theory is ridiculous and anyone who endorses it needs to read any good science book. *However* - the outrage people express when any scientific fact or theory is disputed is telling of a devotion and commitment to science going much deeper than rational logic.

This will be way too much to get into a single post, but look up the work of Feyeraband, Kaplan and Kuhn - they do not discredit science, but they do point out that science isn't necessarily the 'open-belief system' it is commonly assumed to be. I am a firm believer in science but, as with religion, there are those who work for their own interests rather than the honest pursuit of knowledge.

 

[fromelsewhere]

[MENTION=40458]Simple_Person[/MENTION], please read the first post of the thread where I give an example of what happens when people make outrageous 'scientific' claims based on 0 evidence but rather on their religious views.

 

[fromelsewhere]

Blind belief or faith is never encouraged and in fact is dangerous, as it makes people vulnerable to the wrong interpretations and messages from others who seek to exploit any religious devotion or fervour. We have seen this countless times, across all religions.

As Muslims, we are told to use our intellect and there are so many hadiths of our Prophet :saws: telling the believers to seek knowledge - it is given such a high priority. The more we learn, the more we can understand the word and wisdom of Allah swt and the more we can improve the world around us.

And an interesting point - I think the flat-earth theory is ridiculous and anyone who endorses it needs to read any good science book. *However* - the outrage people express when any scientific fact or theory is disputed is telling of a devotion and commitment to science going much deeper than rational logic.

This will be way too much to get into a single post, but look up the work of Feyeraband, Kaplan and Kuhn - they do not discredit science, but they do point out that science isn't necessarily the 'open-belief system' it is commonly assumed to be. I am a firm believer in science but, as with religion, there are those who work for their own interests rather than the honest pursuit of knowledge.

Your first 2 sentences get right into the heart of what I am complaining about: what happens when people don't want to examine the evidence around them and instead choose to ignore it for so-called "religious" reasons.

Yes, science can be hijacked, like religion, by unscrupulous people with agendas. But sooner or later, the truth comes out and false theories are debunked.

 

[Simple_Person]

@Simple_Person, please read the first post of the thread where I give an example of what happens when people make outrageous 'scientific' claims based on 0 evidence but rather on their religious views.

You re-read my comment i made, that i said many people make many different claims ESPECIALLY Muslims now a days..one saying that he can marry a non-Muslim/Christian/Jewish woman is oke and NOT Zina. These PEOPLE EXIST, but you make it as if this is typcically religious people who say this.

You think i agree with such people? Look at atheist or even YOU. You say there is NO God, but the argument and "proof" given is so shallow and based on HOPE. So no i do not follow agnostic or atheistic mentality, i am even skeptical of scientific papers now a days as there are often those scientists who come with false claims so their research can get more funding. I brand something as fact if the research is confirmed by other researchers as well. We live in times that there are many liars. The people who have the MOST power are the LEAST to be trusted now a days.

Look at whole NATO and UN. Those are the cause of the corruption of this world and yet people follow them blindly as heroes and the groups that are "keeping peace" on this earth.

Again i say you have personal issues and better go and fix those first before wanting to discuss such subjects with other Muslims or even religious people in general.

Sigh... I am tired of these kinds of 'threats' of disbelief. I want evidence to believe! Threats have 0 value in convincing me

Brother all the evidence is there, but you want YOUR thing to be evidence. I have had discussion with a acquaintance of mine. She said "nobody has come back from death to say there is life after death". The argument would be..what if that individual would be lying? Why would you blindly believe that person? In another time she said..no angel has come down to say there is a God. What if that was trickery and people would say..somebody is fooling us? The story of Prophet Salih(as) is a good one with the camel. They wanted a camel with certain attributes, but still a part did not believe. Believe is based on first step, that is to logically, rationally and reasonably make sense. If this is not done, belief cannot manifest in the heart.

I was also one of those guys that threats had 0 value for me to believe, but i was honest in doing research. However you already accuse Muslims in bending ayaat in the Qur'an. However you also do not trust that Qur'an as their "proof". If you were a logical, rational and reasonable person you would RIGHT NOW started to learn advance Arabic and did your own study deep IN the Qur'an. To find errors in it. But i KNOW you will not do it.

It is not a claim that i know something, but I KNOW YOUR MENTALITY. You will NOT learn Arabic at advance level to really find the truth. You do NOT care rather as i said it already..a personal problem. Just want to attack Islam and Muslims but like hypocrites who say they are Muslims come as a peaceful person. The attitude is the same. (pretending)

GO FIX YOUR PERSONAL ISSUES DUDE.

 

[fromelsewhere]

You think i agree with such people? Look at atheist or even YOU. You say there is NO God, but the argument and "proof" given is so shallow and based on HOPE. So no i do not follow agnostic or atheistic mentality, i am even skeptical of scientific papers now a days as there are often those scientists who come with false claims so their research can get more funding. I brand something as fact if the research is confirmed by other researchers as well. We live in times that there are many liars. The people who have the MOST power are the LEAST to be trusted now a days.

Look at whole NATO and UN. Those are the cause of the corruption of this world and yet people follow them blindly as heroes and the groups that are "keeping peace" on this earth.

Again i say you have personal issues and better go and fix those first before wanting to discuss such subjects with other Muslims or even religious people in general.

I am agnostic. I do not know whether God exists or not. This is the definition of agnostic. My argument is certainly not based on HOPE. If my argument was based on HOPE, I would believe in God and not doubt his existence. But I do doubt God's existence, since I have not been convinced by the arguments that religious people have brought forward so far of his existence.

You should know that science is a process. One scientific paper may provide some evidence for a claim, but many scientific papers that come to the same conclusion obviously has much more power. You need to gather up a lot of evidence before you can call something a "scientific theory", otherwise you just have a "hypothesis".

As for your rambling about NATO and the UN, I don't see what that has to do with the topic at hand.

As for your last point where you claim that I have personal issues, I think it is a bit rich of you to make such a claim. I will counterclaim that you have personal issues of your own and have a tendency of getting upset very easily when you don't like another person's opinions.

 

[Simple_Person]

I am agnostic. I do not know whether God exists or not. This is the definition of agnostic. My argument is certainly not based on HOPE. If my argument was based on HOPE, I would believe in God and not doubt his existence. But I do doubt God's existence, since I have not been convinced by the arguments that religious people have brought forward so far of his existence.

You should know that science is a process. One scientific paper may provide some evidence for a claim, but many scientific papers that come to the same conclusion obviously has much more power. You need to gather up a lot of evidence before you can call something a "scientific theory", otherwise you just have a "hypothesis".

As for your rambling about NATO and the UN, I don't see what it has to do with the topic at hand.

As for your last point where you claim that I have personal issues, I think it is a bit rich of you to make such a claim. I will counterclaim that you have personal issues of your own and have a tendency of getting upset very easily when you don't like another person's opinions.

Agnosticism if you ask me is the MOST dangerous form of them all. Because they do not take any sides. It is like the hypocrites among Muslims, they also do not take any sides. They are not Muslim, but they also do not show as if they are unbelievers. With agnosticism, EVERYTHING is seen as doubtful. However they rather lean towards science, but when science is wrong or some religious person says look you see how this is contradictory they say..yeah but i never have claimed there is no God.

About NATO and UN, you fail to grasp what i try to say but nevermind about this.

About your last point, why i get upset is people like you come with such nerve and pretend as if this and that is wrong. One is entitled to their opinion off course and nothing wrong with it. However with somebody who has a opinion, a HONEST person is also open for dialogue and intellectual debate. All you do is come and spread propaganda and your doubt to other people. When one tries to have a debate, you again.. bring this "oooh i need proof". When proof is given you say i do not regard this as proof. When another approach is given..you say i do not approve this approach. Doubt is the most dangerous habit of the human being, because it never shows progress..you stay exactly where you are and will never advance. However time passes by and death is not waiting for anybody.

This forum is not coming and spreading your feelings about religion and you dislike religion. Rather come as a man, say science says there is X, Y and Z how do you Muslims answer to this as it is being contradictory to A, B, C? But with this like i earlier said when we grab the Qur'an ..you come with the claim that Muslims tend to "bend" everything to make things "oke" with science =_=!. Well then if you feel like it..what are you doing here right? You already see as if Islam is wrong..so what gives? You wast everybody's time and having NO progress in a topic whatsoever.

 

[Bobbyflay23]

How am I trying to disprove Islam? Please explain... (Unless you think that science goes against Islam?)



Sigh... I am tired of these kinds of 'threats' of disbelief. I want evidence to believe! Threats have 0 value in convincing me

What about scientfic proof like embryology from 1400 years ago or predictions of the internet and "music on the ears" so headphones what about a discription of which part of your brain is the part that is responsible for lying in a conversation what about grammar and language in the Quran that non Muslims call in human what about predictions of finger printing what about Muhammad (saw) splitting the moon and then NASA finding a crack going all the way around the moon what about the Torah and the Bible predicting Muhammad (saw)with discription how on earth would the Christians and the Jews have known the exact discription of someone who will call himself a prophet what about finding a Quran in a cave with no difference to this version from 900 years ago what about the fact that in all religions it's known that the nations of god are the ones who got tested and oppressed the most such as the people who where getting attacked by the Pharo or such as how the campanions of jesus (as) where getting oppressed what about how currently in this world the major country's who get tests and hardships are the Muslim country's and the ones who are materialistic are the people of other country's and faiths you find it that they're are church's all around getting sold to someone who makes a nightclub out of it you find it that a priest is taking thousands of dollars from church funds to have private homosexual sessions doing things like sexual kinks with urination and then allah talks about how he will humiliate the opposition who commit shirk allah says that he will guide many with his verses and he will misguide many with his verses if you get misguided then you arnt someone who allah wants in this faith because of somthing in your heart that you can fix if you try

 

[Bobbyflay23]

I am agnostic. I do not know whether God exists or not. This is the definition of agnostic. My argument is certainly not based on HOPE. If my argument was based on HOPE, I would believe in God and not doubt his existence. But I do doubt God's existence, since I have not been convinced by the arguments that religious people have brought forward so far of his existence.

You should know that science is a process. One scientific paper may provide some evidence for a claim, but many scientific papers that come to the same conclusion obviously has much more power. You need to gather up a lot of evidence before you can call something a "scientific theory", otherwise you just have a "hypothesis".

As for your rambling about NATO and the UN, I don't see what that has to do with the topic at hand.

As for your last point where you claim that I have personal issues, I think it is a bit rich of you to make such a claim. I will counterclaim that you have personal issues of your own and have a tendency of getting upset very easily when you don't like another person's opinions.

Also know that there must be a god to counteract evolution nothing can evolve without being alive first so life had to have been placed and as for the universe being created by itself it's impossible so we know there must be a god now it's up to you to study most faiths watch debates and see who is truthful pray to god that he guides you to the right faith if you are to arrogant to just say "oh god if you exist guide me to you I'm open to your existence" you show humility while saying it and address only one lord but if you ask me all the other religions that arnt created by human beings lead back to Islam but don't take my word for it study it yourself

 

[fromelsewhere]

Agnosticism if you ask me is the MOST dangerous form of them all. Because they do not take any sides. It is like the hypocrites among Muslims, they also do not take any sides. They are not Muslim, but they also do not show as if they are unbelievers. With agnosticism, EVERYTHING is seen as doubtful. However they rather lean towards science, but when science is wrong or some religious person says look you see how this is contradictory they say..yeah but i never have claimed there is no God.

About your last point, why i get upset is people like you come with such nerve and pretend as if this and that is wrong. One is entitled to their opinion off course and nothing wrong with it. However with somebody who has a opinion, a HONEST person is also open for dialogue and intellectual debate. All you do is come and spread propaganda and your doubt to other people. When one tries to have a debate, you again.. bring this "oooh i need proof". When proof is given you say i do not regard this as proof. When another approach is given..you say i do not approve this approach. Doubt is the most dangerous habit of the human being, because it never shows progress..you stay exactly where you are and will never advance. However time passes by and death is not waiting for anybody.

This forum is not coming and spreading your feelings about religion and you dislike religion. Rather come as a man, say science says there is X, Y and Z how do you Muslims answer to this as it is being contradictory to A, B, C? But with this like i earlier said when we grab the Qur'an ..you come with the claim that Muslims tend to "bend" everything to make things "oke" with science =_=!. Well then if you feel like it..what are you doing here right? You already see as if Islam is wrong..so what gives? You wast everybody's time and having NO progress in a topic whatsoever.

Funny that you think that agnosticism is "the most dangerous form of them all", as I have always found blind faith to be "the most dangerous form of them all".
I fail to see how I am spreading propaganda and you not. I am arguing that blind faith to the point of denying obvious things and clear scientific evidence is wrong. I have given an example to illustrate my point. All you have given me so far as counter-arguments are threats of "Judgement Day" and accusations that I have personal issues.

"Doubt", to the contrary, is essential in preventing unscrupulous people from advancing BS scientific theories, BS politics, and other forms of BS. Someone who doubts is someone who thinks and questions themselves, their beliefs, and others. Everyone should have a healthy level of "doubt" or "skepticism" to be functional, otherwise one would believe the first fool who comes around and claims to be a prophet.

When you have valid arguments to make rather than pouring out your bleeding heart at me, please come back and try again... with real arguments.

Thank you and peace.

 

[Bobbyflay23]

You people who base their beliefs on Science,
You must realize that the Scientific Community is lying to you.
So the one who believes in Science,stands on a base as weak as a spiders web.

No it depends on the science there is much truth in science but when one tries to use science not for development in the human race but to just disproof overs and just try to make conflict then it becomes less truthful because they lie and manipulate they're evidence and stuff like I find it that there evolution is a awful theory that any aethist should follow and that they're are better theory's but the others are still flawed but just much less flawed then evolution

 

[Serinity]

There can be no contradiction between science and Islam. In fact, there is no contradiction.

Allahu alam.

 

[sister herb]

More than one of the scholars have narrated that there is consensus that the Earth is round.

Published Date: 2014-06-05

Whole article: https://islamqa.info/en/118698

imsad No pancakes.

 

[noraina]

Wait, I don't believe Islam makes any direct reference to what shape the earth is. Whether you believe it is flat or round has nothing to do with religion or your faith or what you worship per se.

To be honest, the overwhelming consensus is that it is spherical. I have more proof that the earth is spherical than it is flat, I've read all the 'evidence' there is for a flat earth and it is far from convincing.

We need to be careful before completely discrediting science. No doubt, science is an 'institution' like any other part of society and there can be people with vested interests using it for their own agenda, *but* it has done a whole lot of good for society and there were many Muslims who pioneered in many fields of science.

 

[Bobbyflay23]

Wait, I don't believe Islam makes any direct reference to what shape the earth is. Whether you believe it is flat or round has nothing to do with religion or your faith or what you worship per se.

To be honest, the overwhelming consensus is that it is spherical. I have more proof that the earth is spherical than it is flat, I've read all the 'evidence' there is for a flat earth and it is far from convincing.

We need to be careful before completely discrediting science. No doubt, science is an 'institution' like any other part of society and there can be people with vested interests using it for their own agenda, *but* it has done a whole lot of good for society and there were many Muslims who pioneered in many fields of science.

Yea same I'm open to the idea but I've never been convinced by it I've gotten into a heated debate with my friend about this for over a hour and he basically couldn't answer a single question

 

[noraina]

By the way, I still didn't know the 'flat-earth' model is still a thing. But then, I suppose if evolution is, why can't that be?

Whenever I learn about the world, or the universe, or the way the natural world works so perfectly, it reinforces my faith. Science and religion definitely do not contradict, they are both difference ways to understand the world and the work of God - this perceived 'battleground' between 'modern science' and 'archaic religion' is nothing but a remnant of some people who decided science and religion cannot possibly work together. Surely we've gone beyond that now?

 

[MuhammadHamza1]

More than one of the scholars have narrated that there is consensus that the Earth is round.

Published Date: 2014-06-05

Whole article: https://islamqa.info/en/118698

imsad No pancakes.

Sister I am aware of that.
I am also aware of many other Islamic rulings.
But I will give you an example.
Hanafi Fiqh sats there is no evidence in Quran that Earth is round.
I am a Salafi and I take advice from all four Fiqhs.
But this shows that there is difference of opinion.
A view of every fiqh carries weight.

 

[fromelsewhere]

There's a difference bettween having doubts with reason and being arrogant with no reason and looking for flaws instead of looking for evidence with no flaws in talking about a aethist or one who would call himself agnostic to make himself seem open to the idea but inside a aethist

I am an agnostic and not an atheist. I am growing very tired of people giving me all sorts of labels because they do not like my opinions. Please stick to arguments and not personal attacks. Thank you.

 

[Serinity]

4:82

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction.
____________

 

[Bobbyflay23]

Sister I am aware of that.
I am also aware of many other Islamic rulings.
But I will give you an example.
Hanafi Fiqh sats there is no evidence in Quran that Earth is round.
I am a Salafi and I take advice from all four Fiqhs.
But this shows that there is difference of opinion.
A view of every fiqh carries weight.

I can't find the post you made on the world being flat and stuff I read your reasons and stuff but they simply didn't make sense from my perspective