Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

[Futuwwa]

The burden of proof is incumbent upon BOTH OF US! I did my part! I provided an argument and supported my views.

Yeah, you did that NOW (or rather, attempted to, which is what counts). After not having done so for, what, three pages? Without any admission of wrongdoing for not having done so to begin with, but instead, a defence of your former behaviour in this thread.

Yes, you made it crystal clear that you need respect. I do respect you. I have nothing against you.

Your views however, are another matter. If you want me to ‘respect’ you views, then provide substance for them, otherwise you are asking for an unreasonable accommodation.

And yet, whenever someone disagrees with you in this thread, you act on the assumption that and readily express the notion that we must be having the beliefs and opinions that we do because of ignorance, biased background or because have are being taught in a certain way, while you pose and assume the position of impartial rationality. That condescending, lecturing attitude is unacceptable. Your distinction between respecting persons and respecting views becomes irrelevant when you start treating people in a certain way and making certain assumptions about them as persons on the basis of the views they hold.

 

[anatolian]

Look, in order to be taken seriously you should try to get your information from as neutral of a source as possible. What did you do? You quote from a site that is totally and completely biased towards Palestinian Arabs agenda. The data on that site is not believable by any reasonable person. According to what you posted, there were more Arab dead then the number of people that actually lived in the area in question. According to you, there were millions of dead!!!!! Why not billions? Common, even you should admit that this is beyond funny.

Look at the list of contributors to that site you quoted from, - AHMADINEJAD, Mahmoud, BARGHOUTI. Omar, CASTRO, Fidel, CHAVEZ, Hugo, FALK, Richard, KLEIN, Naomi, PAPPÉ, Ilan, etc. to name a few. Among them, many are Holocaust deniers, advocates for the wholesale annihilation of Israel and murder of Jews. Nearly all of them are die-hard Marxist-Leninists by their own admission. Really, - you picked Great contributors to prove your point, - Mr. Castro is my favorite, along with Mr. AHMADINEJAD and Mr. Chaves.

All you had to do, is to look at Wikipedia entry to see what the truth really is. While not perfect, but it is clearly a better source then what you posted. But you did not do that! If you did, you’d quickly discover how bankrupt your views really are.

The Palestinian Arab dead are numbering at about 78,000 from 1860 on! Israeli dead are less at about half that. Many of Arab dead are the result of Arab on Arab violence. Here is alink for you, -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_casualties_of_war

If you want to ‘see’ genocide, - look at African conflicts, look at what Nazis did from 1933 till 1945, look at what the Turks did to Armenians!

Also, Mr. Sharon, as controversial as he was, was never directly accused by any court anywhere in the world. In his book he denied the accusation as frivolous that had no prove. Times Magazine did accuse him. He took them to court in the US and won! Further, - no reputable historian or publication EVER accused him of any crimes. He was accused by people and organisations that had clear agenda against his policies. OK?

Please rethink your position.

Something doesn't become false just because it is spoken by Marxists or Islamists. Those people you mentioned were all brave enough guys to say something for the issue. If you don't like them you can listen to Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein as well. Both are jews.

So it is thousands but not millions..Does it change so much thing? Genocidal behaviours of the Israeli army caused all those Palestinian casualities.

 

[ethnhunt]

Yeah, you did that NOW (or rather, attempted to, which is what counts). After not having done so for, what, three pages? Without any admission of wrongdoing for not having done so to begin with, but instead, a defence of your former behaviour in this thread.




And yet, whenever someone disagrees with you in this thread, you act on the assumption that and readily express the notion that we must be having the beliefs and opinions that we do because of ignorance, biased background or because have are being taught in a certain way, while you pose and assume the position of impartial rationality. That condescending, lecturing attitude is unacceptable. Your distinction between respecting persons and respecting views becomes irrelevant when you start treating people in a certain way and making certain assumptions about them as persons on the basis of the views they hold.

What are you talking about? You just like to talk without saying anything, do you?
Look at what YOU DO! You complain that your views are disrespected, yet you do not support anything that you attempt to say. Its like Wild West with you, - you shoot from the heap.

Yes, you are being 'lectured' because you have no idea what you are saying, - so I tell you what the issues are, - they are, - an absolute rejection by Palestinian Authority of ANY peace proposal by Israel, time and time again. PA does not want to live next to Israel, yet PA complaints of mistreatment. Sounds familiar? It is a lot like what you do, - you do not talk about issues, do not engage in a discussion or debate, yet you complain that your views are not respected! Funny...

If you can't support you views or do not understand the issues involved, then have courage to admit it. Believe me, I will not think less of you...

 

[ethnhunt]

Something doesn't become false just because it is spoken by Marxists or Islamists. Those people you mentioned were all brave enough guys to say something for the issue. If you don't like them you can listen to Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein as well. Both are jews.

So it is thousands but not millions..Does it change so much thing? Genocidal behaviours of the Israeli army caused all those Palestinian casualities.

Sure, - Communists are people too! However their views have not accomplished a great deal. Being a Marxist-Leninist today is not a crime, but those ideas are totally bankrupt, - and that is a historic fact. This is the reason I dismissed the contributors to that site from which you quoted.

As for Chomskiy and Finkelstein, - not a single reputable academic in the World takes them seriously, - check it out for yourself. When was the last time any of them lectures in a reputable school or a conference unless invited by a fringe group? Do you know that according to Noam Chomsky, the controversy that surrounded Finkelstein's research caused a delay in his earning his Ph.D. at Princeton University. Chomsky wrote in Understanding Power that Finkelstein "literally could not get the faculty to read[his dissertation]" and that Princeton eventually granted Finkelstein his doctorate only "out of embarrassment [for Princeton]" but refused to give him any further professional backing.

Finkelstain says that he can't get a job anywhere, because of his views “... I’m down to two countries. One is Turkey. The other is Iran."

Being a Jew is not a prove of anything.

Further, I showed you that you have no idea what the definition of the word 'genocide' is. I showed to you that Israel has never committed genocide. I gave you the figures to support what I said. I indicated to you the examples of genocide.

Why do you insist on a line of reasoning that you cannot support?

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you ethnhunt;

so I tell you what the issues are, - they are, - an absolute rejection by Palestinian Authority of ANY peace proposal by Israel

This is not surprising when you see the map of Palestine in 1946, compared to the map of Israel today. The Palestinians have been squeezed out. And here are some quotes from Israeli prime ministers and a general, they don't sound too peaceful........


I don't mind if after the job is done you put me in front of a Nuremberg Trial and then jail me for life. Hang me if you want, as a war criminal. What you don't understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it.

Ariel Sharon


I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him.

Ariel Sharon

Even today I am willing to volunteer to do the dirty work for Israel, to kill as many Arabs as necessary, to deport them, to expel and burn them, to have everyone hate us…

Ariel Sharon

Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.

Moshe Dayan

Our American friends offer us money, arms, and advice. We take the money, we take the arms, and we decline the advice.

Moshe Dayan

What cause have we to complain about their fierce hatred to us? For eight years now, they sit in their refugee camps in Gaza, and before their eyes we turn into our homestead the land and villages in which they and their forefathers have lived.

Moshe Dayan

I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?

David Ben-Gurion

Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.

David Ben-Gurion

The Arabs of the land of Israel [ Palestinians] have only one functionleft to them -- to run away.

David Ben-Gurion

The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever.

Menachem Begin


Our policy is very simple. The Jewish state was set up to defend Jewish lives, and we always reserve the right to defend ourselves.

Benjamin Netanyahu

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people.

Eric

 

[ethnhunt]

Greetings and peace be with you ethnhunt;



This is not surprising when you see the map of Palestine in 1946, compared to the map of Israel today. The Palestinians have been squeezed out. And here are some quotes from Israeli prime ministers and a general, they don't sound too peaceful........

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people.

Eric

Hello Eric, and may peace be with you too! There are many problems here with what you posted, - I shall address them.

If you look at the map of Palestine in 1946, you would see the map of British-mandated land, not Israel. That Land was partitioned by UN's decision of 1947, - in a 49-51 split. It was not Israelis who "squeezed" the Arabs out of their 49%, - it was Jordan.

It was Jordan that gained control of that land through the act of aggression against Israel in 1948. It was Jordan that kept the West Bank to itself with absolutely no desire to give that land to the Palestinian Arabs as UN clearly decreed. Please notice that no Palestinian Arab EVER complained about it, because those Arabs saw themselves as Jordanians anyway and had Jordanian passports, and many still do today.

The talk of 'liberation of Palestine' started when Yassir Arafat arrived from Egypt to fight both the Israelis and Jordanians. He started PLO to do that. He fought both with no success. He attacked Jordan in 1970 and had thousands killed in an effort to depose King Hussein and set up a Marxist Arab State.

Anyway, Israel is not at fault here. Arabs, who called themselves Palestinians, were in 1948 hostile to Israel and many fought on the Jordanian side. Today they are seen by Israel as still hostile population. The number of peace deals have been offered to them over the past 30 years. Some deals offered them 97% of the land that they would have had in 1947. The Arabs always said NO! No, to ANY deal that was offered? WHY? The answer is simple, - they want the Jews out. They want Israel to disappear. Why would they agree, if their long term plan is to keep the entire British-mandated Palestine to themselves.

Today Israel questions the original UN partition, stating that there is no way to divide up the land as envisioned in 1948 and maintain peace. Furthermore, Israels position is that Jordan is already a Palestinian country and the West Bank is an ancestral Jewish Land of Judea and Samaria. Israel claims historic rights to West Bank. History supports the Jewish claim. If Arabs do not come to the negotiating table they will lose it all.

As for the quotes you posted, - well...all the quotes by Ariel Sharon are complete fabrication and was debunked a long time ago. Actually I read his book and his speeches and never seen those quotes either.

Same can be said about your quotes by Dayan, - a complete fabrication. Two quotes by Ben-Gurion are fabrications, but the other one (last) I am not sure and about. I did read similar sentiments in his speeches. I would have to check that. Your quotes by Begin and Netanyahu are factual but they need context and better translation.

Would you please post the site from where you got those quotes.

...best

 

[Futuwwa]

What are you talking about? You just like to talk without saying anything, do you?
Look at what YOU DO! You complain that your views are disrespected, yet you do not support anything that you attempt to say. Its like Wild West with you, - you shoot from the heap.

Yes, you are being 'lectured' because you have no idea what you are saying, - so I tell you what the issues are, - they are, - an absolute rejection by Palestinian Authority of ANY peace proposal by Israel, time and time again. PA does not want to live next to Israel, yet PA complaints of mistreatment. Sounds familiar? It is a lot like what you do, - you do not talk about issues, do not engage in a discussion or debate, yet you complain that your views are not respected! Funny...

If you can't support you views or do not understand the issues involved, then have courage to admit it. Believe me, I will not think less of you...

And I've told you time and again that I'm not going to continue the discussion, to "pick up the gauntlet" as you put it, as long as there are unresolved issues pertaining to how you expect this discussion to be conducted. I have tried to explain it to you, in as clear terms as I can, but you are either unable to understand or pretend not to for whatever rhetorical purpose.

I am perfectly capable of supporting my views and understand the issues involved. You will treat me according to that premise, and then we can proceed. Take it or leave it. I have done you the courtesy of the very same, even though I have every reason to make the very same kind of assumptions about you that you have made about me (and indeed I have made about you, but kept private, while you have been overtly disdainful of me). Over the course of this thread, you have made some of the most fantastically absurd assertions regarding the raw facts of the Arab-Israeli conflict, ones that I have simply shaken my head at in disbelief as they have been irrelevant to the very specific points we have argued about.

 

[ethnhunt]

I am perfectly capable of supporting my views and understand the issues involved. You will treat me according to that premise, and then we can proceed. Take it or leave it.

Very well...I'll take it! Please, consider this as an attempt on my part to 'treat' you as might expect. Let's proceed...shall we?

I have done you the courtesy of the very same, even though I have every reason to make the very same kind of assumptions about you that you have made about me (and indeed I have made about you, but kept private, while you have been overtly disdainful of me).

OK...'mea culpa'! I really do not mind...'meeting' you in the middle.

Over the course of this thread, you have made some of the most fantastically absurd assertions regarding the raw facts of the Arab-Israeli conflict, ones that I have simply shaken my head at in disbelief as they have been irrelevant to the very specific points we have argued about.

So...you do not like my 'assumptions'. You think they are "...fantastically absurd ...". I understand. At you leisure, I'll be pleased to 'look' at any and all "absurdity" that I am responsible for. Please state for the record, exactly WHAT 'assumptions' are in question here and HOW 'absurd' they are. Methinks it is only fair...

 

[AbdurRahman.]

A agree! Perhaps you should tell that to PA. Israelis would gladly live with the Arabs. They do already, - 1.8 million Arabs live in Israel. They vote and are generally happy.

Mr. Abbas, as a head of PA, does not want any Jew to live in Palestine, by his own admission! What do you make of that?

what would you think of morocco if they dropped a nuke on 'israel' and wiped out 5 million jews?

bear in mind they look after a big jewish community in their country really well :Emoji51:

 

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Some Americans in high up position get it.


I'd Dump the Israelis Tomorrow --Ex-CIA Michael Scheuer Tells Congress

Internal Jewish politics

This is a clip of Norman Finkelstein's two appearances in Yoav Shamir's documentary "Defamation".

 

[Futuwwa]

Very well...I'll take it! Please, consider this as an attempt on my part to 'treat' you as might expect. Let's proceed...shall we?

OK...'mea culpa'! I really do not mind...'meeting' you in the middle.

Alright. I frankly didn't expect you to come around, but maybe you did.

So...you do not like my 'assumptions'. You think they are "...fantastically absurd ...". I understand. At you leisure, I'll be pleased to 'look' at any and all "absurdity" that I am responsible for. Please state for the record, exactly WHAT 'assumptions' are in question here and HOW 'absurd' they are. Methinks it is only fair...

Alright, I can do that. Some time ago, you claimed to be able to back up every assertion you've made in this thread with facts and logic, and challenged anyone to disprove even a single assertion made. Does that challenge still stand as originally stated?

 

[ethnhunt]

what would you think of morocco if they dropped a nuke on 'israel' and wiped out 5 million jews?

bear in mind they look after a big jewish community in their country really well :Emoji51:

Wow! We are into nukes now? ...not sure if Morocco has nukes. Regardless, nuclear weapons are not real weapons, - they are more of a political tools. They can never be used with any hope of getting away with it.

Furthermore, any nation state, as sophisticated as Israel is, will definitely have a priory knowledge of any impending attack and will preempt it with a devastating force if need be.

One can think of only North Korea these days that just might be suicidal enough and crazy enough to try something like what you suggest. Clearly, North Korea will seize to exist as sad as it sounds. And also, in your improbable and fantastic scenario so will Morocco.

Morocco is the only Arab country today that has a Jewish community worth talking about. It used to be that the Jews lived in 10's if not 100's of thousands all over the Middle East. No more...The were all kicked out with from all Arab countries in 1950s and 1960s. They left behind their possessions, their real-estate, their bank accounts, often leaving with a suitcase in hand only. Quite an end to a thousands of years of existence, predating Muslims and Christians. Israel absorbed 600,000 Jews from Arab countries.

Anyway, I see no point to your comments...not sure what you are trying to say.

 

[ethnhunt]

Salaam

Some Americans in high up position get it.


I'd Dump the Israelis Tomorrow --Ex-CIA Michael Scheuer Tells Congress

Internal Jewish politics

This is a clip of Norman Finkelstein's two appearances in Yoav Shamir's documentary "Defamation".

LOL, - those Americans are not in high positions!

I am not sure what is the point of the videos you posted? Would you care to explain? Mr. Finkelstein is a discredited demagogue. He works in Turkey now. He can't get a job in any respectable university or a think tank.. Nobody takes him seriously. His PH.D thesis was granted to him in order to get rid of him. It was never published and is an embarrassment to all intelligent people. He is a laughing stock in history circles. he gets invited by fringe group with clear antisemitic agenda, because nobody else or no other institution wants him.

Furthermore, we all know who Michael Scheuer is. He does not like Israel and he does not like the Jews. he is a typical antisemite. He says so himself. It is his right. Who cares...What I don't understand is this, - what are you trying to say?

 

[ethnhunt]

Alright. I frankly didn't expect you to come around, but maybe you did.

...no problem.

Alright, I can do that. Some time ago, you claimed to be able to back up every assertion you've made in this thread with facts and logic, and challenged anyone to disprove even a single assertion made. Does that challenge still stand as originally stated?

Yes!

 

[Futuwwa]

Right, I'll do that when I have the time. Properly replying probably takes more time than usual.

 

[anatolian]

As for Chomskiy and Finkelstein, - not a single reputable academic in the World takes them seriously, - check it out for yourself. When was the last time any of them lectures in a reputable school or a conference unless invited by a fringe group? Do you know that according to Noam Chomsky, the controversy that surrounded Finkelstein's research caused a delay in his earning his Ph.D. at Princeton University. Chomsky wrote in Understanding Power that Finkelstein "literally could not get the faculty to read[his dissertation]" and that Princeton eventually granted Finkelstein his doctorate only "out of embarrassment [for Princeton]" but refused to give him any further professional backing.

Finkelstain says that he can't get a job anywhere, because of his views “... I’m down to two countries. One is Turkey. The other is Iran."

The only reason why he is "down to" Turkey or Iran is because all those reputable universities who discredite him are dominated by the zionist loby. You can hardly find in America a zionist-free university. I gave you his example because you reject others automatically as Marxists. Now you say being Jew doesnt prove anything. So I assume you will reject anyone who condemns Israel regardless of their ideological path or ethnicity or religion.

 

[ethnhunt]

Right, I'll do that when I have the time. Properly replying probably takes more time than usual.

..no problem. take all the time you need.

 

[ethnhunt]

The only reason why he is "down to" Turkey or Iran is because all those reputable universities who discredite him are dominated by the zionist loby. You can hardly find in America a zionist-free university. I gave you his example because you reject others automatically as Marxists. Now you say being Jew doesnt prove anything. So I assume you will reject anyone who condemns Israel regardless of their ideological path or ethnicity or religion.

LOL! So, - now you hide behind the conspiracy theories! Sure...all good schools in US are Zionists! You are funny...if you must know ALL good schools in US are leftist in political orientation and extremely liberal. Check out their ratings!

Nobody wants Finkelstein because his scholarship is bogus and his historical accounts are revisionists. He invents things as he goes or neglects things he does not like. No respected academic wants anything to do with him, - so he is teaching in Turkey, - the only place his views are welcomed.

Look, - here is an example for you...Finkelstein says that Israel attacked Egypt in 1967 because...well, - no reason really, because Israel is aggressive!

Finkelstein conveniently never mentions that Nasser closed waterway of Tiran, thereby attempting to choke Israeli economy. This was a reason for war. Egypt was warned as early as 1956 that if Tiran is closed, Israel goes to war. So, - Finkelestein does not like that, and so... he does not mention it. This is NOT scholarship. This is ridiculous!

So, - nobody can take Filkenstein seriously. I can show you other 'pearls' of his scholarship is you want, there are many, as he does not disappoint. He really should be a stand up comedian for the historically inclined. No wonder his Ph.D thesis was laughable and never printed.

 

[anatolian]

LOL! So, - now you hide behind the conspiracy theories! Sure...all good schools in US are Zionists! You are funny...if you must know ALL good schools in US are leftist in political orientation and extremely liberal. Check out their ratings!

Nobody wants Finkelstein because his scholarship is bogus and his historical accounts are revisionists. He invents things as he goes or neglects things he does not like. No respected academic wants anything to do with him, - so he is teaching in Turkey, - the only place his views are welcomed.

Look, - here is an example for you...Finkelstein says that Israel attacked Egypt in 1967 because...well, - no reason really, because Israel is aggressive!

Finkelstein conveniently never mentions that Nasser closed waterway of Tiran, thereby attempting to choke Israeli economy. This was a reason for war. Egypt was warned as early as 1956 that if Tiran is closed, Israel goes to war. So, - Finkelestein does not like that, and so... he does not mention it. This is NOT scholarship. This is ridiculous!

So, - nobody can take Filkenstein seriously. I can show you other 'pearls' of his scholarship is you want, there are many, as he does not disappoint. He really should be a stand up comedian for the historically inclined. No wonder his Ph.D thesis was laughable and never printed.

Can you show me a single example of a western academic who condemns Israel but not targeted by the general academic enviroment?

Same thing happened to Roger Garaudy. He was a Communist who backs up Israel in France but when he changed his opinions and became a prominent critic of Israel he got disowned by the Fench academic and intellectual enviroment who are dominated by the zionist propoganda. Thats not consipiracy, thats the reality..

 

[AbdurRahman.]

Wow! We are into nukes now? ...not sure if Morocco has nukes. Regardless, nuclear weapons are not real weapons, - they are more of a political tools. They can never be used with any hope of getting away with it.

Furthermore, any nation state, as sophisticated as Israel is, will definitely have a priory knowledge of any impending attack and will preempt it with a devastating force if need be.

One can think of only North Korea these days that just might be suicidal enough and crazy enough to try something like what you suggest. Clearly, North Korea will seize to exist as sad as it sounds. And also, in your improbable and fantastic scenario so will Morocco.

Morocco is the only Arab country today that has a Jewish community worth talking about. It used to be that the Jews lived in 10's if not 100's of thousands all over the Middle East. No more...The were all kicked out with from all Arab countries in 1950s and 1960s. They left behind their possessions, their real-estate, their bank accounts, often leaving with a suitcase in hand only. Quite an end to a thousands of years of existence, predating Muslims and Christians. Israel absorbed 600,000 Jews from Arab countries.

Anyway, I see no point to your comments...not sure what you are trying to say.

it was just an example as your saying basically the same thing; israel gets along with arabs ,,, yeah sure they do after they've murdered thousands of Palestinians!