Saudi cleric justifies child marriage.

[Mahir Adnan]

it's illegal to sleep with husband or wife if he/she hasn't reached puberty https://islamqa.info/en/22442

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[TR][TD]On acting; and the ruling on marrying young girls - islamqa.info
1What is the ruling of islam acting in movies.If it is allowed what type of filims must be them.Also what is the role of women in movies . 2Why islam allowed to...[/TD][/TR][/TABLE]

 

[azc]

"My race is adult by the age of 12" im assuming your white from your previous posts right?
Puberty isnt a thing which is the same for all folk though. Environment, nutrition and genetics play a part too, so we cant really say the age is 12( looking at girls)

Marriage at puberty is preferable to fornication. But if someone stays away from this sinning then he/she can marry later

 

[ChosenTCO]

You are over thinking this, just follow the Quran. You don't need scholars it is very simple, just read the Quran all the guidance is there. Gods law no marriage age, father decides if marriage is appropriate, if daughter is silent she consents. People that have converted to Islam but they don't really know what it is really about and have hang ups about the age of marriage in Islam should join the lefty liberal feminists and leave Islam. It is pointless to try and change the religion as that shows you can't submit to Allah and make a fool of yourself.

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Another reason why age laws are meaningless. My race is adult by the age of twelve. Females enter puberty at around eight years old and are full grown adults by twelve years old. So using "teens" as a benchmark for everyone is ridiculous and that is why it is not in the Quran. As a father I cannot tolerate any commie busy bodies that get into my domestic affairs, if they trespass they will be shot.

Such strong words. So allow me to retaliate ...
First incorrect assumption you've made is that i havent read the Quran. I'd have you know that i read the Holy Book front to back a minimum of 8 times and have listened to it more times than i care to count.
Secondly, if you think im a convert then you're mistaken yet again. By the grace of Allah i was born muslim, an arab muslim.
Thirdly, no one here is trying to change the religion. And simply asking about something in detail shouldnt make you assume such thing.
It is much better to understand and dissect the religion in detail than to simply believe and take everything they hears at face value. Such people are the ones who make a fool of themselves, not me.
You say there is no marriage age in islam. True and we both agree on that. But if your implying that a man can marry his daughter at any age then this simply becomes absurd, because that would also imply that he can marry her off at the age of 5. Get my point? So in the end there has to be some kind of limit. I personally believe that limit should be a combination of both puberty and intellectual maturity like our sister OmAbdullah stated in previous posts.

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it's illegal to sleep with husband or wife if he/she hasn't reached puberty https://islamqa.info/en/22442

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[TD]On acting; and the ruling on marrying young girls - islamqa.info
1What is the ruling of islam acting in movies.If it is allowed what type of filims must be them.Also what is the role of women in movies . 2Why islam allowed to...[/TD]
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A boy or girl shouldn't be married if they havent reached puberty in the first place. Thats the issue here.

 

[Karl]

You say there is no marriage age in islam. True and we both agree on that. But if your implying that a man can marry his daughter at any age then this simply becomes absurd, because that would also imply that he can marry her off at the age of 5. Get my point? .

No, I don't get your point, simply because I do not consider it "absurd" to marry off my daughter even at 5. Age is just a number, and I WILL marry her at age 5 IF I as her FATHER sees fit! You simply have no say in my domestic affairs, period. If you regard it as absurd for YOU to marry off YOUR daughter at age 5, then fine, that's your own view and you as her father should marry her off at whatever age you deem fit. None of my business.

So in the end there has to be some kind of limit. I personally believe that limit should be a combination of both puberty and intellectual maturity like our sister OmAbdullah stated in previous posts..

I have NO problem with your personal belief just as long as you do not wish to impose that personal belief on ME as well. YOU are her FATHER and YOU have made those judgment calls and you should therefore exercise those judgment calls upon your daughter and force her to abide by the limits you have set. I in stark contrast to your personal beliefs am personally opposed to the concept of limits based on age. Age is just a number and there are other factors instead that I put emphasis on when it comes to the issue of marrying my daughters off. Unlike you, I regard PREpubescence as a far more ideal time for my daughters to marry. I don't have to give you any reason WHY, but it is nonetheless my STRONG position. I also don't believe there needs to be any "intellectual maturity" for my daughters to marry. Marriage isn't in and of itself necessarily a complex matter anyway, particularly for WIVES. All I expect my daughters to be able to do is keep their husbands happy, do the housework and look after her babies. If she can go THAT then that is GOOD ENOUGH for me! And even if I DID hypothetically believe my daughters should have "intellectual maturity" I wouldn't even know at what specific point they would attain that, because trying to do so is like asking "How long is a piece of string?". There are simply no absolutes, but rather something that can only be assessed from a purely subjective approach.

 

[Zzz_]

Yes, I belong to a North European race. I agree with you that nutrition and environment also play a part, although they are nonetheless secondary to race itself. What I meant is that the vast majority of those of my race (both male and female alike) are fully grown adults by age 12, and we attain puberty a few years before that age.

It also has to do with the culture and the climate. Physically speaking, those from hotter climate reach puberty and adult age much faster then those of colder climates.

Culturally speaking children mature mentally much faster in the east then the west, mostly because they are treated like adults and given responsibilities and trust at an early age (ex: 7 year old given money and told to get milk/produce/etc from market) vs children still treated like children at age 18 in the west.

A boy or girl shouldn't be married if they havent reached puberty in the first place. Thats the issue here.

And that is not correct. As pointed out in the link of my first post, a child who has not reached puberty can be arranged for marriage at a pre-puberty age. This isn't the norm but it also isn't haram. Islamically, one has to be mature (puberty + sound mind) to get married. But at the same time exceptions are made where a girl's marriage may be arranged well before that time, if that is in the best interest of the child.

 

[Karl]

It also has to do with the culture and the climate. Physically speaking, those from hotter climate reach puberty and adult age much faster then those of colder climates.

Culturally speaking children mature mentally much faster in the east then the west, mostly because they are treated like adults and given responsibilities and trust at an early age (ex: 7 year old given money and told to get milk/produce/etc from market) vs children still treated like children at age 18 in the west.

I agree that it has to do a lot with the culture too, yes, but this is only in terms of how it tends to affect mental maturity, not physical maturity. This is why you will often see many Western young adults and youths who, while they have not been retarded in their physical development, nonetheless act like big babies. The Cultural Marxist decimated Western world with its mollycoddling feminist-driven extended juvenilization of young people tends to lead many Western young people to act very immature, in a way that makes them seem well before their actual years. Such people have effectively been dumbed down and infantilized.

I don't agree that climate per see has much to do with physical developmental speed of a race though. If this WERE so then my race (who lives in a COLD climate) would take much longer to develop physically to being fully grown young adults by age 12, and at puberty by age 8 or 9. In fact, me and my friends often comment to each other in utter amazement when we would often see immigrants from tropical Asia and find out later what age they really are. It is not uncommon for us to be astonished when we see an Asian who we initially think at first glance is only about 5 or 6 years old only to later find out they are in fact 12 or 13 years old! Many Asian 12 year olds look only about as old as a North European FIVE year old AND they are much more PUNY than our five year olds as well. Yet these Asian immigrants come from HOT climates. See my point?

 

[Zzz_]

I don't agree that climate per see has much to do with physical developmental speed of a race though. If this WERE so then my race (who lives in a COLD climate) would take much longer to develop physically to being fully grown young adults by age 12, and at puberty by age 8 or 9. In fact, me and my friends often comment to each other in utter amazement when we would often see immigrants from tropical Asia and find out later what age they really are. It is not uncommon for us to be astonished when we see an Asian who we initially think at first glance is only about 5 or 6 years old only to later find out they are in fact 12 or 13 years old! Many Asian 12 year olds look only about as old as a North European FIVE year old AND they are much more PUNY than our five year olds as well. Yet these Asian immigrants come from HOT climates. See my point?

I can't find it now but I did a study showing that warm climates do bring on early puberty and physical development. That isn't to say that is the only cause of it. Following factors influence the onset of early puberty:

climate
genetics
Sedentary lifestyle
diet
- chemicals in/on foods
- hormones/gmo in/on food

Regarding your observations, your understanding is based a number of fallacies. The reason a child from asia looks different than the same age child from the western world is due to a number of factors.

Asian children and people in general are malnourished. They don't eat a wholesome meal consisting of the daily nutritional requirement needed by the body. For example, most of the world there either have rice or wheat bread and vegetables as staple diet. Fruit is a luxury as is meat, and what are vitamins?

Asian children tend to stress out lot more, be it due to studies or life (working to support family). Japan alone has the highest children suicide rate due to stress of education.

Those two would be main reason for stunted growth in them compared to their counter parts living a carefree, nutritionally rich and healthy lifestyle. The third thing would be genetics, which shows why most africans are taller and most asians are shorter.

That explains the stunted growth in kids, as for looking young. That too has a few factors to it. First is genetics, let's face it some will hardly show their age no matter how old they get. Second is the lifestyle, kids walk everywhere and are very active over there vs having to set a "play time" in the west or going to gym to get exercise. All that physical workout in the east keeps them lean and fat free, which naturally makes a person look younger than a plumped up one. And third would be the diet. The chemical based and unhealthy food of the west makes you not just fat but unhealthy fat. Lot of the fat is either from sugar or salt and all it does it make your cells plump up with water making you chubby fat rather then healthy fat and thus make you look older.

Otherwise, the eastern kids that grow up in the west are no different then their western counterparts. Same excess to same food, same lifestyle and they too grow to same height and stage of puberty as their peers.

 

[ChosenTCO]

And that is not correct. As pointed out in the link of my first post, a child who has not reached puberty can be arranged for marriage at a pre-puberty age. This isn't the norm but it also isn't haram. Islamically, one has to be mature (puberty + sound mind) to get married. But at the same time exceptions are made where a girl's marriage may be arranged well before that time, if that is in the best interest of the child.

Arranging (as in planning for the future) marriage and getting married are two different things.

It is ok for the parents of an unconceived child to have an arranged partner that may or may not be conceived yet. Example: a couple from among a royal family are planning to have a child. This unconceived child is arranged to be married to another child of a completely different royal family in efforts of strengthening relations between them.
Getting married on the other hand, is when the actual marriage/nikkah contract has been signed. That is when both individuals are free of sin from getting together and having marital relations between them.

What i have a problem with is suggesting that is it some how moral or ethically sound (calling it halal) to allow a prepubescent individual to engage in marital relations (through nikkah/marriage). It is without an iota of a doubt that marrying an individual will increase the temptation and desire to engage in marital relations with them, and when the person is married to a prepubescent child it becomes pedophilia. I dont think i need to explain how morally despicable such actions are.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

What i have a problem with is suggesting that is it some how moral or ethically sound (calling it halal) to allow a prepubescent individual to engage in marital relations (through nikkah/marriage). It is without an iota of a doubt that marrying an individual will increase the temptation and desire to engage in marital relations with them, and when the person is married to a prepubescent child it becomes pedophilia. I dont think i need to explain how morally despicable such actions are.

Apparently you do (or somebody does), as several people on this forum say that there is nothing wrong with such actions. Remarkably, the forum staff seem to have no objections about this either.

Peace

 

[AabiruSabeel]

People are under a misconception when it comes to pedophilia. Pedophilia is subjective term. A child in one state is considered an adult capable of marriage in another state. See https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/table_marriage
Massachusetts has 12 as the age of consent for girls and New Hampshire has 13, whereas most other states have 16.

Islam has no place for pedophilia, the same way as it has no place for homosexuality.

Remarkably, the forum staff seem to have no objections about this either.

You are wrong.

What i have a problem with is suggesting that is it some how moral or ethically sound (calling it halal) to allow a prepubescent individual to engage in marital relations (through nikkah/marriage).

It is not allowed for prepubescent individuals to consummate their marriage.

See https://islamqa.info/en/22442 again.


Islamically, a father can conduct the nikah of his young daughter if he finds a suitable match and if it is in the best interests of the child, but the girl will remain in her father's house until she is physically able to be with her husband. According to scholars, this authority is only for the father and some say for the grandfather as well. The uncles, or elder brothers are not included.

From the quoted fatwa,

The fact that it is permissible to marry a young girl does not mean that it is permissible to have intercourse with her; rather that should not be done until she is able for it. For that reason the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) delayed the consummation of his marriage to ‘Aa’ishah :raha:. ...
Maalik, al-Shaafa’i and Abu Haneefah said: the marriage may be consummated when the girl is able for intercourse, which varies from one girl to another, so no age limit can be set.​

From another fatwa,

The permissibility of consummating a marriage with a girl is based on her physical strength and not on her age. If consummating the marriage will be injurious to her health then it will not be permissible to do so, although she may have reached the age of puberty. ... (Hashiyya Ibn Aabideen, vol 3, pg 204, HM Sa’eed)​

The fatwa also states,

It is preferable for a guardian not to marry off his daughter when she is still young unless there is a valid reason for that.

Al-Nawawi said:
It should be noted that al-Shaafa’i and his companions said: It is preferable for fathers and grandfathers not to marry off a virgin until she reaches the age of puberty and they ask her permission, lest she end up in a marriage that she dislikes.​

With all that cleared, :threadclo